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Sizzle

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Re: Sky
« Reply #900 on: July 12, 2013, 10:37 »
Last Tour the Skyborgs seemed so much stronger than any other team, in that classic USPostal ride-em-off-our-wheels style. They looked invincible. Debate raged about whether or not they were clean. I didn't know, but I did wonder, even if the peloton was clean, on the luck of Sky turning up as the only team in form. And if the peloton wasn't clean-ish, how could Sky be doing it?

Perhaps it's good management and training methods as Sky claim, of course. Unfortunately for Sky, this has an awful echoes of cadence talk and such like and, as such, it isn't automatically convincing.

This Tour we have Froome apparently able to ride all the other GC riders off his wheel by great lengths. The same questions have returned.

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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #901 on: July 12, 2013, 10:41 »
    I think so. Comments about bike handling skills and nutritional knowledge is nonsense. Like these things can't be learnt in a season.
    I dunno, there are cyclists who retired from the pro ranks because they never learnt how to ride efficiently in a peleton, I imagine that it's one of those things you get better at with practice.

    And nutritional knowledge won't improve if your training consists of solo rides up the nearest hill to your home. The size of the step change in Sky's nutritional analysis methods depends on what Froome was used to before and how much he bought into it.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #903 on: July 12, 2013, 11:12 »
    I agree that there wasn't anything to suggest he would become a GT contender from his performances at Konica and then Barloworld but there's nothing to suggest he wouldn't either.   The Vuelta performance he put 1.50 overall into Bauke Mollema and Maxine Monfort et al for heavens sake - not earth shattering but solid.   

    Personally I never thought of him as a contender from following his results at Barloworld but more a climbing domestique and a possible top 20 finisher in GT's.  Obviously he's taken that a stage further but if you take out the disastrous, illness hit first year at Sky its not the miraculous transformation that people want you to believe.

    That's because froome was on the leash for all but the last htf which was 7k. He spent the rest of the race domestiquing for Wiggins even while wearing the red jersey.

    The fact that he was so far ahead of everyone but cobo on the 1 stage he was finally allowed to ride strongly suggests the gap between him and the others in ability was far greater.

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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #904 on: July 12, 2013, 11:27 »
    In Tyler Hamilton's autobiography, he described and made infamous the use of "white bags" in cycling

    Here is a picture of Team Sky's
    White Bags

    Rather than for PED's, they seem to be for the support staff's lunch :D
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #905 on: July 12, 2013, 11:43 »
    Nice article on the issue:

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/07/can-performance-be-used-as-an-indicator-of-doping/
    One key quote from that:
    Quote
    That is, you can do whatever you like as long as you’re within the limit. And just because you’re under the limit doesn’t mean you’re not doping.
    Staying below 6 watts/kg doesn't mean you're clean, it's as arbitrary as the 50% hematocrit threshold. Going above it however makes it hard to convince people that your performance hasn't been "enhanced".

    I would like to hear more about Brailsford's argument that in time, cyclists will be (are?) able to beat that figure of LeMond's.
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    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #906 on: July 12, 2013, 11:49 »
    Actually I dont doubt that in time, cyclists will be able to match Le Monds time/power etc.

    the history of competitive sport is that people are trying to do the same thing faster, further, stronger or better.   Its why world records are set and broken every year.

    Riders get better, they learn more about the body, nutrition, training etc.  Technology improves allowing lighter, stronger, faster bikes .. more aero equipment, all kinds of things.

    It will happen.    That doesnt mean it has happened yet, or that when it does it will definitely be due to natural or allowable progress. 

    Its a hard call for fans with the kind of history that cycling has to believe in the 'natural'.   We have pretty strong reasons to be cynical.
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  • sublimit

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #907 on: July 12, 2013, 12:02 »
    That's because froome was on the leash for all but the last htf which was 7k. He spent the rest of the race domestiquing for Wiggins even while wearing the red jersey.

    The fact that he was so far ahead of everyone but cobo on the 1 stage he was finally allowed to ride strongly suggests the gap between him and the others in ability was far greater.

    Yes but he came in relatively fresh compared to some of the others, he had a very solid Romandie earlier in the season and so in an uninspiring field of Vuelta riders he produced a very strong performance..    The only thing that was an earth shattering transformation was consistency.

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  • doolols

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #908 on: July 12, 2013, 12:12 »
    Nice article on the issue:
    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/07/can-performance-be-used-as-an-indicator-of-doping/

    It's a great article. I liked the bit from Tim Kerrison:
    Quote
    “The human body is a machine that’s frankly not very efficient. It’s somewhere around 20% efficient. So it only takes a small evolution of training practices, or a particularly efficient human specimen to go from 20% to 21% (for argument sake). It’s only 1%, but results in a 4 or 5% increase in power output.

    But then, he would say that  :D
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #909 on: July 12, 2013, 12:16 »

    Its a hard call for fans with the kind of history that cycling has to believe in the 'natural'.   We have pretty strong reasons to be cynical.

    Actually,  you've hit the nail on the head with that.

    Being a cynic doesn't put one in a good position to be objective.

    Sceptical? Yes. Cynical? Probably not.
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    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #910 on: July 12, 2013, 12:18 »
    I think all cycling fans need to ask themselves the question:

    When that occurs and cyclists can manage such an accomplishment, will we nevertheless adamantly accuse them of doping?
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  • Sizzle

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    • Vale Craig1985
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #911 on: July 12, 2013, 13:06 »
    I think all cycling fans need to ask themselves the question:

    When that occurs and cyclists can manage such an accomplishment, will we nevertheless adamantly accuse them of doping?

    Yes, because with so much money in the sport there will always be people seeking advantage wherever they can get it, legal or otherwise. The trouble is that we, the fans, can never know whether what we are seeing is 'legit' or not, and we can't trust what the cyclists or their teams tell us.
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  • doolols

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #912 on: July 12, 2013, 13:14 »
    and we can't trust what the cyclists or their teams tell us.

    .. or the UCI, at the moment. Hopefully, a new president will put clean cycling above clean PR, and work with other sports (anyone for tennis?) to do likewise.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #913 on: July 12, 2013, 13:20 »
    Yes, because with so much money in the sport there will always be people seeking advantage wherever they can get it, legal or otherwise. The trouble is that we, the fans, can never know whether what we are seeing is 'legit' or not, and we can't trust what the cyclists or their teams tell us.
    But where is, if there is, a line between being skeptical and remaining adamant and disillusioned?

    I don't know if this should be in the Sky thread, but it does pertain to Sky in some way.
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #914 on: July 12, 2013, 15:11 »
    The myth of riding for Barloworld meant Froome could achieve does not hold up.

    How come argos shimano area able to achieve better than OPQS? Surely they are a new 'rough' pro outfit mixing it up with the big long established

    Froome did not show GT potential before the meteoric rise to 2nd spot on the podium at La Vuelta. If he did why what were the odds for him to win the '11 Vuelta?

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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #915 on: July 13, 2013, 02:27 »
    Sky looking a little more at risk now.

    No EBH or Kiryenka, and some of the major players not doing so well.  Porte dropped off early which must be a concern for them.   The others - well, they did ok but still in the end were not strong enough to protect Froome against the team tactics and hard racing of others.

    It has certainly shown the other teams that they are vulnerable, and can be attacked.   Froome still has a good buffer, and with a TT to come is still in a great position - but the Tour isnt over.  Not by a long way.
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  • Sizzle

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    • Vale Craig1985
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #916 on: July 13, 2013, 04:03 »
    But where is, if there is, a line between being skeptical and remaining adamant and disillusioned?

    I don't know if this should be in the Sky thread, but it does pertain to Sky in some way.

    To me it seems that cycling is full of ambiguities and grey areas, rather than black & white certainties or cleanly delineated either/or frameworks. It's one of the things I love about the sport. And to me this is another of those grey areas and I negotiate it differently within myself at different times. Sometimes I am skeptical, sometimes I am disillusioned, sometimes I see signs of hope, sometimes I think a rider might be/is probably clean, sometimes I think the sport will always be 'corrupt', sometimes I think the racing on the road is all that matters.

    Last tour it was Sky prompting this inner negotiation for me, and this year it has been Froome, although it could just as easily be many others.

    As AG says, though, it certainly seems that Froome is not going to have an easy ride to Paris, as it initially seemed when he rode everyone off his wheel last Saturday. (Was it only a week ago?!) I may well do several more circuits of the inner negotiation in the days ahead.
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  • DinZ

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #917 on: July 13, 2013, 05:33 »
    Think the big threat also comes from the double double threat.  Two teams with two riders that can attack and counter.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #918 on: July 13, 2013, 06:37 »
    Think the big threat also comes from the double double threat.  Two teams with two riders that can attack and counter.

    This. It was being discussed with barely-concealed excitement on RTBF yesterday. A unique situation that affords possibly the best chance to crack Froome if the teams are willing to take it.


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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #919 on: July 17, 2013, 10:09 »
    interesting read  - Team Sky chief Sir Dave Brailsford driven to brink of quitting over fallout from Lance Armstrong drug scandal

    Brailsford also realised that there were other sources of contagion.
    He spent that day, Oct 13, thinking about the problem. There were three   options:
    1.  Resign and walk away.
    2.  Abandon the zero-tolerance policy and, as some other teams were doing, embrace 'truth and reconciliation’.
    3.  Reinforce zero tolerance and sack anyone who confessed, or was considered a liability.
    For once, Brailsford did not call people; instead, he turned to a book he had been reading, The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse by Marianne Jennings. From Enron to United Health Care, Jennings, professor of legal and ethical studies at Arizona State University, looks at companies who have crossed an ethical line.
    Those seven signs, as they pertained to Team Sky, provided a checklist:
    1.  Pressure to maintain numbers. Did the team want to win at any cost?
    2.  Fear and silence. Did a culture of fear exist among riders and staff that meant they did not feel they could speak openly?
    3.  Larger‑than-life chief. Had Brailsford got carried away with his own fame?
    4.  Weak board. Did Brailsford have too much power over the board that managed Team Sky?
    5.  Conflicts. There were big characters at Team Sky: Mark Cavendish and Bradley Wiggins, the coach Shane Sutton among the staff. Each could be abrasive.
    6.  Innovation like no other. Brailsford had talked of “going right to the line” of what was legal – but had they crossed it?
    7.  Goodness in some areas atoning for evil in others. The Lance Armstrong case had exposed the effectiveness of such a strategy, his work for cancer acting as a protective shield.
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #920 on: July 17, 2013, 10:10 »
    Brailsford had talked of “going right to the line” of what was legal – but had they crossed it? this is not really a Sky question but if the line moves have you been doping ?
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #921 on: July 17, 2013, 10:29 »
    Technically, no, you haven't.
    Morally though, you have.

    If Sky are currently using methods that are not banned, but are aware that these methods are performance-enhancing and might later become banned, they're not "clean".
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #922 on: July 17, 2013, 10:34 »
    Technically, no, you haven't.
    Morally though, you have.

    If Sky are currently using methods that are not banned, but are aware that these methods are performance-enhancing and might later become banned, they're not "clean".

    that has been a question or questions I guess  I want answered by all teams or riders

    1. Are you clean ?- which everyone says yes too and is a stupid question

    2. What is a clean rider or Does a rider mean not taking products on the WADA code or more than that ?

    and then see what the answer is and build from there

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  • taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #923 on: July 23, 2013, 01:00 »
    Is Ferrari involvement really in tinfoil territory? Weight loss, riding by numbers, Tenerife, Tour winning credentials, unavoidably large profile in cycling...
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #924 on: July 26, 2013, 09:06 »
    interesting read  - Team Sky chief Sir Dave Brailsford driven to brink of quitting over fallout from Lance Armstrong drug scandal

    Brailsford also realised that there were other sources of contagion.
    He spent that day, Oct 13, thinking about the problem. There were three   options:
    1.  Resign and walk away.
    2.  Abandon the zero-tolerance policy and, as some other teams were doing, embrace 'truth and reconciliation’.
    3.  Reinforce zero tolerance and sack anyone who confessed, or was considered a liability.
    For once, Brailsford did not call people; instead, he turned to a book he had been reading, The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse by Marianne Jennings. From Enron to United Health Care, Jennings, professor of legal and ethical studies at Arizona State University, looks at companies who have crossed an ethical line.
    Those seven signs, as they pertained to Team Sky, provided a checklist:
    1.  Pressure to maintain numbers. Did the team want to win at any cost?
    2.  Fear and silence. Did a culture of fear exist among riders and staff that meant they did not feel they could speak openly?
    3.  Larger‑than-life chief. Had Brailsford got carried away with his own fame?
    4.  Weak board. Did Brailsford have too much power over the board that managed Team Sky?
    5.  Conflicts. There were big characters at Team Sky: Mark Cavendish and Bradley Wiggins, the coach Shane Sutton among the staff. Each could be abrasive.
    6.  Innovation like no other. Brailsford had talked of “going right to the line” of what was legal – but had they crossed it?
    7.  Goodness in some areas atoning for evil in others. The Lance Armstrong case had exposed the effectiveness of such a strategy, his work for cancer acting as a protective shield.

    This is a classic Brailsford approach.  Dodge the issue by making it all about him.  He won't ever resign.  He makes far too much money out of his Sky job and still takes a massive wage for the BC job that he no longer performs.

    He's a snake oil salesman and has Sky right where he wants them.   Complicit in whatever he's been up to and now past the point of no return.

    Win.  Win.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #925 on: July 26, 2013, 10:14 »
    How much is the "far too much" money that Brailsford makes from Sky?

    How much is the "massive" salary paid to him by British Cycling?
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  • Jamsque

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #926 on: July 26, 2013, 10:31 »
    I don't think you know/understand what 'snake oil salesman' means. The implication of that phrase is that someone is selling placebos and fake cures, whatever you think of Brailsford he definitely isn't peddling sugar water.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #927 on: July 26, 2013, 11:46 »
    I think the snake oil means the fake news. Brailsford needs to stop harrassing all these cycling journalists, inundating them with stories about how Sky achieve their success, and let them get on with their real jobs reporting on the latest royal birth or something.

    The not snake oil would be to reveal how Brailsford runs a massive team wide doping campaign. We know what the truth is, we don't need any evidence, and Brailsford is just lying until he tells us what we know to be true.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #928 on: July 27, 2013, 14:25 »
    Not sure what to say about this


    uploaders comments
    Quote
    Team Sky staff altercation with supporters during Tour de France 2013 - Stage 20 / At the end of stage 20, finishing up Semnoz pass, a Sky car was hit by a camper van backing up. When the Sky staff got out to check they were attacked by supporters, in particular the camper van driver. They didn't answered back the knocks and were surprised by the violence of the attack. In the end, you can see them leaving the scene as advised by my brother (the one with the grey backpack), who was actually the only guy speaking english and therefore able to advise the Sky guys. We heard a lot of anti-sky, anti-english comments, treating them of "all juiced" and telling them to "go back home" (those comments were in French). Personally, me, my brothers and my friend, we were shocked and disgusted by the attitude of those people, clearly they spent all the day drinking and the nice weather heated up everybody. And they were quick to attack and insult anybody. We tried our best to advise and sort out the situation, it was unexpected, and hopefully very rare. It was a cool day supporting every rider we saw inculding the Sky ones, good memories and "Vive le Tour !"
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #929 on: July 27, 2013, 14:31 »
    Not sure what to say about this


    That fans dont like what they see at Sky. Why are they picking on Sky? Because they are the ones winning and winning easily?

    I for one am glad to see fans getting upset, but wish they would direct it against all teams.
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