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ram

Re: Sky
« Reply #150 on: July 09, 2012, 10:25 »
My attempt at sarcasm, which wasn't best successful.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #151 on: July 09, 2012, 11:53 »
    My attempt at sarcasm, which wasn't best successful.
    Aah. I feel bad now for thinking you were just stupid. Sorry.  :-[
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #152 on: July 09, 2012, 12:20 »
    Fairly polite response considering that :D
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #153 on: July 09, 2012, 12:58 »
    Yes it was.

    You see there's a sadly ill-educated world out there who don't realise that British riders don't dope, only foreigners do. But a bit of tolerance and patient explanation will be far more effective at getting them to understand their mistaken beliefs than getting rude or abusive will.

    Now I realise you are already enlightened, I don't feel the need to be polite to you at all.
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #154 on: July 09, 2012, 13:46 »
    ;D
    Sagacity
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  • bicing

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #155 on: July 09, 2012, 16:41 »
    time's man of the year
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #156 on: July 09, 2012, 16:49 »
    Party like its 1999!
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  • Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #157 on: July 09, 2012, 17:37 »
    One thing that is clear in all this is that your nationality plays some part in what you believe.

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    Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #158 on: July 09, 2012, 17:38 »
    One thing that is clear in all this is that your nationality plays some part in what you believe.

    Yes, most people are irrational. Not sure why, but we are.
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  • Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #159 on: July 09, 2012, 17:43 »
    I dont have a problem with that...
    When the UK had barely any riders in the Tour I always thought they were dirty dopers, especially Lance.

    I can't complain when we have good riders and people want to throw it back.

    Haters gonna hate and all that.

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #160 on: July 09, 2012, 20:59 »
    Yes, most people are irrational. Not sure why, but we are.
    Although paradoxically what you just said then is quite rational.
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  • Amsterhammer

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #161 on: July 09, 2012, 22:32 »
    I hate myself for having suspicions as a result of what I saw today, I hate even being in this forum writing these words now, but what happened today was just too unreal.

    I will admit that I'm not too fond of Sky, mainly because of the name association with the dirty, corrupt, digger Murdoch, but I'm not a Wiggins or Froome hater, and I'm not a frustrated Evans fanboy either. Nevertheless, today's events have sucked the interest for this Tour right out of me. Froome in particular, simply should not have been capable of anything like what he did today after the effort he put in yesterday. I hate saying it, but something really stinks here. :(
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    usedtobefast

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #162 on: July 10, 2012, 00:37 »
    I hate myself for having suspicions as a result of what I saw today, I hate even being in this forum writing these words now, but what happened today was just too unreal.

    I will admit that I'm not too fond of Sky, mainly because of the name association with the dirty, corrupt, digger Murdoch, but I'm not a Wiggins or Froome hater, and I'm not a frustrated Evans fanboy either. Nevertheless, today's events have sucked the interest for this Tour right out of me. Froome in particular, simply should not have been capable of anything like what he did today after the effort he put in yesterday. I hate saying it, but something really stinks here. :(



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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #163 on: July 10, 2012, 01:40 »
    I have tried to give Sky the benefit of the doubt .. but its getting hard.

    Looking at the times ...

    name
    1GBRWIGGINS Bradley101SKY51' 24''   
    2GBRFROOME Christopher105SKY51' 59''+ 00' 35''
    3SUICANCELLARA Fabian12RSNT52' 21''+ 00' 57''
    4USAVAN GARDEREN Tejay   9BMC52' 30''+ 01' 06''
    5FRACHAVANEL Sylvain192OPQS52' 48''+ 01' 24''
    6AUSEVANS Cadel1BMC53' 07''+ 01' 43''
    7SVKVELITS Peter199OPQS53' 23''+ 01' 59''
    8ITANIBALI Vincenzo   51LIQ53' 31''+ 02' 07''
    9RUSMENCHOV Denis131KAT53' 32''+ 02' 08''
    10GERKLÖDEN Andréas15RSNT53' 33''+ 02' 09''

    Using Cancellara as a benchmark ... his time seems to be pretty good generally.  TJVG had a blinder (which people have once in a while) and no one else got that close. 

    Cadel didnt ride well. Being only 24 seconds ahead of Nibali and Menchov isnt as much as I would expect ... so lets say he was 30 seconds off his best ride.

    That would put him 16 seconds behind Cancellara, which is around what I would expect.

    Wiggo did beat Cance at the worlds ... but only because Cance overcooked a corner trying to get back time on Tony Martin.  Otherwise there is no way Wiggo would have beat him.   Cance is coming back from injury true, but he still put in an excellent time ... so realistically IMO Wiggo, even on a blinder of a ride, should still only be putting a few seconds into Cancellara.  Not a minute!!!

    As for Froome ... even on his best day he should not be able to go 35 seconds better than Cancellara. 

    Fabs is 4 times world champion ... olympic champion, time trial specialist. In what way can 60kg climbers push out more power than 80kg tt/power riders? 


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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #164 on: July 10, 2012, 02:17 »
    Wiggins has done this all year. Beating a rider who shat on Cancellara like mad all year in 2011. Froome? question him. Top form Martin would've challenged that time by Wiggo, maybe not beaten it, and secondly, Froome and Wiggo are 70kgs not 60kg climbers.

    Also, didn't this pair beat Cancellara in the Vuelta last year? And Wiggins was well undercooked.  Dodgy defo, but Martin on top form would challenge them surely.
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #165 on: July 10, 2012, 02:41 »
    Remember I called it during the stage that Cancellara's time was beatable. He was still "on" today though, and put in a very good time. I think he may have been 20 - 30 seconds off his best, which still has him beaten by Froome and half a minute down on Wiggins. I'd say Evans was 30 - 40 seconds off his best. Wiggins and TJVG were the most surprising for me, and wasn't expecting Evans to be bad.
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  • Auscyclefan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #166 on: July 10, 2012, 03:48 »
    Wiggins has done this all year. Beating a rider who shat on Cancellara like mad all year in 2011. Froome? question him. Top form Martin would've challenged that time by Wiggo, maybe not beaten it, and secondly, Froome and Wiggo are 70kgs not 60kg climbers.

    Also, didn't this pair beat Cancellara in the Vuelta last year? And Wiggins was well undercooked.  Dodgy defo, but Martin on top form would challenge them surely.

    Yes but Wiggins is around 188-190cm, he is a tall man and so he being 70kg is actually quite light. Wiggins has not been doing that all year, that is simply false. At the same time, I do agree with what The Arbiter said and perhaps some of us have been a little over the top with our comments about Sky.
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    ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #167 on: July 10, 2012, 03:59 »
    True, I must have imagined all his TT wins this year.
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  • Auscyclefan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #168 on: July 10, 2012, 04:04 »
    True, I must have imagined all his TT wins this year.

    Algarve
    1.       [GBR]         WIGGINS Bradley       SKY       32'48"       20   
        2.       [GER]         MARTIN Tony       OPQ              10   
        3.       [AUS]         PORTE Richie       SKY       13"       5   
        4.       [USA]         VAN GARDEREN Tejay       BMC       14"       3   
        5.       [NZL]         SERGENT Jesse       RNT       14"       0   
        6.       [BEL]         VAN DEN BROECK Jurgen       LTB       28"       0   
        7.       [USA]         TALANSKY Andrew       GRM       39"       0   
        8.       [POL]         KWIATKOWSKI Michal       OPQ       53"       0   
        9.       [NOR]         BOASSON HAGEN Edvald       SKY       56"       0   
        10.       [ESP]         SANCHEZ GIL Luis Leon       RAB       56"       0

    Paris Nice
    1.       [GBR]         WIGGINS Bradley       SKY       19'12"       40   
        2.       [NED]         WESTRA Lieuwe       VCD       02"       25   
        3.       [FRA]         PERAUD Jean-Christophe       ALM       33"       15   
        4.       [SLO]         SPILAK Simon       KAT       47"       10   
        5.       [FRA]         COPPEL Jérôme       SAU       51"       5   
        6.       [ESP]         VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro       MOV       52"       3   
        7.       [GER]         KLÖDEN Andreas       RNT       58"       2   
        8.       [FRA]         MONCOUTIE David       COF       59"       1   
        9.       [ITA]         CUNEGO Damiano       LAM       59"       0   
        10.       [COL]         URAN URAN Rigoberto       SKY       01'06"       0   

    Romandie
    1.       [GBR]         WIGGINS Bradley       SKY       28'56"       40   
        2.       [USA]         TALANSKY Andrew       GRM              25   
        3.       [AUS]         PORTE Richie       SKY       16"       15   
        4.       [POR]         COSTA Rui Alberto Faria       MOV       22"       10   
        5.       [CZE]         KREUZIGER Roman       AST       40"       5   
        6.       [POL]         SZMYD Sylwester       LIQ       41"       3   
        7.       [AUS]         ROGERS Michael       SKY       42"       2   
        8.       [FRA]         PINOT Thibaut       FDJ       52"       1   
        9.       [BEL]         DE GENDT Thomas       VCD       53"       0   
        10.       [SLO]         BRAJKOVIC Janez       AST       54"       0   

    Dauphine
    1.       [GBR]         WIGGINS Bradley       SKY       1h03'12"       40   
        2.       [GER]         MARTIN Tony       OPQ       34"       25   
        3.       [AUS]         ROGERS Michael       SKY       01'11"       15   
        4.       [NED]         KELDERMAN Wilco       RAB       01'25"       10   
        5.       [FRA]         CHAVANEL Sylvain       OPQ       01'33"       5   
        6.       [GBR]         FROOME Chris       SKY       01'33"       3   
        7.       [AUS]         DURBRIDGE Luke       OGE       01'37"       2   
        8.       [AUS]         EVANS Cadel       BMC       01'43"       1   
        9.       [GBR]         MILLAR David       GRM       01'51"       0   
        10.       [ESP]         SANCHEZ GIL Luis Leon       RAB       01'53"       0   

    Now you said, "Wiggins has done this all year". I disagree. Other than the Dauphine TT, he has not dominated like that all year. What you are suggesting in your previous post is incorrect.
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #169 on: July 10, 2012, 04:05 »
    What you read in my post and assumed to be the point is incorrect. That's all.
    If Martin hadn't been injured, he'd have been closer than Dauphine.
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  • Auscyclefan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #170 on: July 10, 2012, 04:11 »
    What you read in my post and assumed to be the point is incorrect. That's all.
    If Martin hadn't been injured, he'd have been closer than Dauphine.
    :-\

    WE are disagreeing. You are saying he has done those types of performances all year and I am saying he hasn't. Your second line concedes that I'm right.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #171 on: July 10, 2012, 04:15 »
    Having said what I think above ... I am going to argue the other side now too  ;D  (just cause I can  :P)


    your post with the results ACF shows that he has in fact done this all year.

    He has been in superb form ... won basically everything he has been in and never really been troubled. 

    Some of those he didnt win by a minute no, but he still won them ... still beat Tony Martin, Cancellara, Westra - all who have at various stages been in raging form.

    As for dominating ... the amount of domination depends on not only Wiggins and his performance, but the performance of the other top class tt'ers who would normally match him.

    Normally, he would be looking at
    - martin ... riding with a broken wrist, and had a puncture
    - cancellara - while I thought his time was good, quite a few at the time said it wasnt unbeatable and thought Wiggo would do it easily
    - cadel who didnt ride nearly well enough on the day

    after that, there is in fact a pretty big gap between the known ability of these guys and the rest.  Look at the worlds for how far this gap is.

    Froome is a bit of a surprise for sure, but then so is TJVG's result.   People do exceptional things when there is a lot on the line.

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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #172 on: July 10, 2012, 04:20 »
    :-\

    WE are disagreeing. You are saying he has done those types of performances all year and I am saying he hasn't. Your second line concedes that I'm right.
    Yes darling.

    Compare the time differences for a 9km and 40 odd km TT. And no, Wiggins has not built form for the Tour at all, he has been at the peak from January.

    And no, a non injured Martin wouldn't have finished within a minute of the winning time.
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  • Auscyclefan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #173 on: July 10, 2012, 04:21 »
    Having said what I think above ... I am going to argue the other side now too  ;D  (just cause I can  :P)


    your post with the results ACF shows that he has in fact done this all year.

    He has been in superb form ... won basically everything he has been in and never really been troubled. 

    Some of those he didnt win by a minute no, but he still won them ... still beat Tony Martin, Cancellara, Westra - all who have at various stages been in raging form.
    Again, he beat them, but not like he did yesterday. You are failing to address that.
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  • Auscyclefan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #174 on: July 10, 2012, 04:23 »
    Yes darling.

    Compare the time differences for a 9km and 40 odd km TT. And no, Wiggins has not built form for the Tour at all, he has been at the peak from January.

    And no, a non injured Martin wouldn't have finished within a minute of the winning time.

    You are completely contradicting yourself...nice work!  ::)
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #175 on: July 10, 2012, 04:24 »
    I'm kind of disappointed that three of them didn't try, they could have gone one better than the TMO job of 4 in the top10. Zam's boy must have been told to ease up on the trolling.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #176 on: July 10, 2012, 10:05 »
    OK let's look at the last GT TT, Vuelta 2011.

    MARTIN Tony   77   THR   00"   
    FROOME Christopher   183   SKY   59"
    WIGGINS Bradley   188   SKY   01' 22"
    CANCELLARA Fabian   102   LEO   01' 27"
    PHINNEY Taylor   33   BMC   01' 33"
    FUGLSANG Jakob   103   LEO   01' 37"
    MACHADO Tiago   206   RSH   01' 54"
    SANCHEZ GIL Luis Leon   158   RAB   02' 02"
    MONFORT Maxime   104   LEO   02' 06"
    KESSIAKOFF Fredrik   131   AST   02' 18"
    OLIVIERA Nelson Filipe   207   RSH   02' 19"
    MENCHOV Denis   65   GEO   02' 19"
    O'GRADY Stuart   105   LEO   02' 20"
    NIBALI Vincenzo   1   LIQ   02' 24"

    We know that Wiggins stuffed up the pacing on that ride, up on Martin at the first split, and weaving drunkenly 10K from the finish and we know he hadn't been on a bike for long following injury at the tour. But let's take Martin's time as the benchmark on a course that was a) shorter than yesterday and b) flatter, so time gaps should be less.

    At the Vuelta: Froome 1 minute down, Cancellara 1.5 mins down, Monfort, Menchov, Nibali 2 mins down.

    And yesterday: Froome 35 seconds down, Cancellara 1 min down, Nibali, Menchov Montfort 2 mins down.

    Relatively the whole field of contenders was closer to Wiggins yesterday than they were to Martin at the Vuelta.


    The performance was not incredible at all. What was surprising was that Cancellara and Evans performed so poorly.

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  • flicker2.0

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #177 on: July 10, 2012, 15:45 »
    I agree with Kelly, Wiggins could crack at the slightest provocation, if he does, it will be entertaining, probably the best thing about this tour. Something about Wiggins makes him look like he sits on the edge of his chair. Not about anyone attacking on Twit. really, he just looks to lack something, although he looks really good now. I might be wrong though, and for the sake of the sun rising and setting on the BRITISH CYCLING EMPIRE, it would be great to see BRAD win the tour and the olympic TT and Cav. win the olympic road.
    Great for Britich Cycling that, rah,rah.
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  • Hugh Jassman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #178 on: July 10, 2012, 16:00 »
    I was wondering, is it OK to use the word w**nk*r over here?
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #179 on: July 10, 2012, 16:04 »
    I was wondering, is it OK to use the word w**nk*r over here?

    Ciao, Huge! Try it and see what happens! (There's a swear filter turned on by default in your user profile. Turn it off to see the full raspberry)
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