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jobiwan

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Re: Sky
« Reply #270 on: July 14, 2012, 19:53 »
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/bradley-wiggins-mulls-releasing-blood-data-to-bolster-clean-racing-argument_229792

Quote
“It’s something I’m looking into doing. I’ve been advised against it. Strongly advised against it. But it’s something I would like to do, because I’ve got nothing to hide, so I don’t see why it shouldn’t be out there,” Wiggins said.

Good. Now don't mull it, just do it.
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  • benotti69

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    "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    Jamsque

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #272 on: July 14, 2012, 20:39 »
    He released some before, didn't he? While he was at Garmin. I think I remember JV saying something to the effect that all they achieved by releasing blood values was giving amateur hematologists something to talk about and make spurious inferences from.
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  • Lanced Armprong

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #273 on: July 14, 2012, 20:46 »


    So again while it would be nice to believe Sky are doing it clean, i doubt it as i doubt others race clean. It is too easy to get away with micro doping so others are definitely doing it, RSNT, OPQS, Katusha, Astana etc yet Sky is the dominant team.

    some facts to back up your statement that those teams are "DEFINITELY" would be nice right about now. Otherwise you come across as just another Sky-basher / Pro Cycling hater. I prefer to take the opinion that looking at the times of climbs, and watching the effort the riders are putting in and what that does to them, that the majority are riding clean now. Until I see proof otherwise, I'm going to stop being so cynical (for the first time in my life!).
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #274 on: July 14, 2012, 21:29 »
    who would advise him against doing it and why?

    Because of all the amateur haemotologists on cycling forums that would pull every little discrepancie apart and turn it around on him.

    I'm in favor of rides data being made public. But it should be EVERY rider from every team so is an even playing field

    Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #275 on: July 15, 2012, 02:59 »
    Because of all the amateur haemotologists on cycling forums that would pull every little discrepancie apart and turn it around on him.

    Well, those amateur haemotologists who didn't accept that it was "all good" were probably closer than you think, and the UCI suspicion index 12 months later seemed to reinforce the suggestion that maybe something wasn't right.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #276 on: July 15, 2012, 04:17 »
    I'm in favor of rides data being made public. But it should be EVERY rider from every team so is an even playing field

    Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

    I originally thanked your post, but have changed it to not give the wrong impression.

    Its this bit that I agree with    :)
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #277 on: July 15, 2012, 10:39 »
    some facts to back up your statement that those teams are "DEFINITELY" would be nice right about now. Otherwise you come across as just another Sky-basher / Pro Cycling hater. I prefer to take the opinion that looking at the times of climbs, and watching the effort the riders are putting in and what that does to them, that the majority are riding clean now. Until I see proof otherwise, I'm going to stop being so cynical (for the first time in my life!).

    I am on a cycling related forum offering opinion.

    Sadly i cannot offer facts. But i base my opinions on what i know and what my eyes tell me.

    If the doping teams are clean why are they not doing a Garmin now? Proclaiming they are clean, remember JV doped in his past.

    As for offering up that the others are doping teams. These teams, their DSs and team doctors know of no other way to operate in sport.

    How was Andy Schleck going to turn up to the TdF as he had done nothing all season, barely finished a race?

    While it can frustrating to watch and think they are doping,it might be  easier like in the  Giro to have bigger doubts that there was much doping going on, but Sky are USPostalling it.

    I will leave you to enjoy the Sky success if you so wish. But if you dont want to be cynical about the sport it is best not to visit forums and their doping threads  ;)
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #278 on: July 15, 2012, 10:44 »

    So again while it would be nice to believe Sky are doing it clean, i doubt it as i doubt others race clean. It is too easy to get away with micro doping so others are definitely doing it, RSNT, OPQS, Katusha, Astana etc yet Sky is the dominant team.
    That logic seems to be flawed because if others are doing it, then why are Sky superior. Many people originally attribute their claims that Sky are doping due to their unnatural superiority but are you implying that Sky are just better than everyone else at it? Because otherwise you may as well just assume the dope is taken away and everyone will still be at the same level with Sky remaining superior.
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  • RIP Keith

    killswitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #279 on: July 15, 2012, 12:43 »
    ... but are you implying that Sky are just better than everyone else at it?
    US Postal were and the eerie similarities to Sky are maybe too much to be a coincidence.
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  • Joelsim: The huge winner today - Landa.
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    Lanced Armprong

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #280 on: July 15, 2012, 19:56 »

    Sadly i cannot offer facts. But i base my opinions on what i know and what my eyes tell me.


    I too believe what my eyes tell me, and when I see how the pro peloton performs nowadays compared to the height of the doping era, they are night and day. There will always be doping, but I believe it is becoming rarer every year. I just think we're at a stage in cycling where we should be enjoying it more and stop trying to find some way of putting a downer on every race (Cuddles last year winning the TdF was amazing, but because he didn't speak out against doping, people immediately said he condones it :fp).

    Each to their own though, some people just like to have something to moan about :)

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #281 on: July 15, 2012, 19:59 »
    I think this maybe one of the slowest average speed tours in history for whatever it is worth.
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #282 on: July 15, 2012, 21:56 »
    I too believe what my eyes tell me, and when I see how the pro peloton performs nowadays compared to the height of the doping era, they are night and day. There will always be doping, but I believe it is becoming rarer every year. I just think we're at a stage in cycling where we should be enjoying it more and stop trying to find some way of putting a downer on every race (Cuddles last year winning the TdF was amazing, but because he didn't speak out against doping, people immediately said he condones it :fp).

    Each to their own though, some people just like to have something to moan about :)

    I dont like the personal attacks from your 2 previous posts. Hater and now moaner.

    I think every cycling fan at this stage has the complete right to be angry about the doping in the sport. I dont moan about it i offer my opinion, which is to doubt what i see.

    This is not 'the clinic', it is a new forum where personal attacks and name calling are not wanted. We can all call it as we see it. But to start with the fanboy and hater bullsh*t is gonna make it a duplicate of what is already online. I for one dont want to see velorooms become similar to what is there. So far it has stayed above that.

    i hope it continues in this manner.
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #283 on: July 15, 2012, 22:02 »
    That logic seems to be flawed because if others are doing it, then why are Sky superior. Many people originally attribute their claims that Sky are doping due to their unnatural superiority but are you implying that Sky are just better than everyone else at it? Because otherwise you may as well just assume the dope is taken away and everyone will still be at the same level with Sky remaining superior.

    When you add up all the questions that Sky need to answer, it really is too much in a sport where we all know the past.

    Why are Sky superior? I dont know maybe because they have a world class swimming coach, they have Geert Leinder and  maybe the combination of these 2 out performs whatever programs Ferarri, Ibarguren and Fuentes have their teams on!


    Or maybe no one is doping and Sky like everyone else is riding clean! But i doubt it!

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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #284 on: July 15, 2012, 23:09 »
    When you add up all the questions that Sky need to answer, it really is too much in a sport where we all know the past.

    Why are Sky superior? I dont know maybe because they have a world class swimming coach, they have Geert Leinder and  maybe the combination of these 2 out performs whatever programs Ferarri, Ibarguren and Fuentes have their teams on!


    Or maybe no one is doping and Sky like everyone else is riding clean! But i doubt it!
    Why are Sky superior?There are about three hundred posts in this thread and a great many of them offer answers to your question. You haven't addressed any of them.
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  • Lanced Armprong

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #285 on: July 16, 2012, 20:15 »
    I dont like the personal attacks from your 2 previous posts. Hater and now moaner.

    I think every cycling fan at this stage has the complete right to be angry about the doping in the sport. I dont moan about it i offer my opinion, which is to doubt what i see.

    This is not 'the clinic', it is a new forum where personal attacks and name calling are not wanted. We can all call it as we see it. But to start with the fanboy and hater bullsh*t is gonna make it a duplicate of what is already online. I for one dont want to see velorooms become similar to what is there. So far it has stayed above that.

    i hope it continues in this manner.

    Calm down please. I said in a previous post where you claim something is "definitely" the case that if you don't provide facts to back that assertion that something is "definite", that you come across as a Sky basher / Pro cycling hater.

    You continue to single out a particular team and make claims that they are doing something untoward (we've been seeing this since this year's Tour started) just because of the past. Yes, cycling has a horrible past with doping, but you need to compare the performances of those bad days with today's performances, which you don't seem to want to do. Anyone can see that the performances this year (and I'm not just talking about Sky before you start with the fanboy stuff - I've been following cycling since way before Sky came along) are way down on what the dopers were capable of.

    Your latest post also just seems to want to stir trouble for the sake of it, just because this team has done what no other team has done this year - worked as a solid unit in the mountains. This last part is key, if Nibali had the support from his teammates that Wiggins has or if Cadel had more than Teejay in the mountains, the GC might look a little different.

    Were you as critical of Cadel when he won last year? The way he just kept going up those climbs every day, even on his own...

    Yes this is a doping part of the forum, but that does not mean that you have to be negative in every post - there should be arguments from both sides of the discussion. I'm certainly happy to continue.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #286 on: July 16, 2012, 20:38 »
    Been thinking about the Wiggins data thing

    the pro's

    + It gets his data out and he can "prove" he is clean

    the negatives

    + it counts for nothing if other riders dont follow suit
    + the amateur haemotologists will have a field day
    + he will be accused of lying about the figures
    + there will be a sh*tstorm when they get taken down again

    My suggestion to Brad would be give the figures to someone who is respected such as Ashenden. Let him publish them, along with an accompanying study of what he gets from the figures (with the agreement that he can publish it unedited but Sky have the right of reply).

    That way everyones happy.
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  • Lanced Armprong

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #287 on: July 16, 2012, 20:44 »
    Been thinking about the Wiggins data thing

    the pro's

    + It gets his data out and he can "prove" he is clean

    the negatives

    + it counts for nothing if other riders dont follow suit
    + the amateur haemotologists will have a field day
    + he will be accused of lying about the figures
    + there will be a sh*tstorm when they get taken down again

    My suggestion to Brad would be give the figures to someone who is respected such as Ashenden. Let him publish them, along with an accompanying study of what he gets from the figures (with the agreement that he can publish it unedited but Sky have the right of reply).

    That way everyones happy.

    Sounds like a plan. Wiggins seems keen to post his stats, I can only guess Sky don't want to after the furore when he posted his stats at Garmin. People will pick holes in everything, even though his last stat-posting showed to the experts that he wasn't doping.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #288 on: July 16, 2012, 20:46 »
    Guys and Girls

    I think it is time for a little step back on the personal nature of some of the posts.

    We are here to discuss both sides of any given subject and it is important that each sides views are debated in a way that does not lead to personal attacks or making claims of what one person does or does not think.



     
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #289 on: July 16, 2012, 21:11 »
    Before two weeks no one even gives a sh*t for Wiggins or Sky, now all the sudden every single doubter is on ;D
    Today Wiggins/Sky, tomorrow any rider or team who ride good, it is just silly if you ask me.
    Wait why not Thibaut Pinot, yesterday he was anonymous French rider, and now he is top ten. If you ask me, something smelly for sure ;D
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  • Reverend Fred Saves!!

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #290 on: July 16, 2012, 21:25 »
    Before two weeks no one even gives a sh*t for Wiggins or Sky, now all the sudden every single doubter is on ;D
    Today Wiggins/Sky, tomorrow any rider or team who ride good, it is just silly if you ask me.
    Wait why not Thibaut Pinot, yesterday he was anonymous French rider, and now he is top ten. If you ask me, something smelly for sure ;D
    Agree with the first bit but the 2nd bit is not necessarily true as Pinot is a young rider who showed lots of promise last year and seems to be starting to come good this year. Otherwise when can you ever come good as a rider?
    Problem with Wiggins is he coming good in fact really good later on in his career, what people do not understand is that he started off as a track rider and that took away years of his GT development which he only made up recently whilst riders like Pinot are making them up now.

    It is very similar to Evans, Hesjedal and Kessiakoff all of whom are former mountain bikers and have started to display their full road and specifically GT climbing talent at a later age.
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #291 on: July 16, 2012, 21:43 »
    Agree with the first bit but the 2nd bit is not necessarily true as Pinot is a young rider who showed lots of promise last year and seems to be starting to come good this year. Otherwise when can you ever come good as a rider?
    Problem with Wiggins is he coming good in fact really good later on in his career, what people do not understand is that he started off as a track rider and that took away years of his GT development which he only made up recently whilst riders like Pinot are making them up now.

    It is very similar to Evans, Hesjedal and Kessiakoff all of whom are former mountain bikers and have started to display their full road and specifically GT climbing talent at a later age.
    Yes, yes, but my point was that Pinot is not very attractive for doubters as Wiggins and Sky ;)
    Doubters dont have any favorite rider or team, coz sooner or later they will found them selves in deep sh*t how to explain their conduct ;D, all they know is moaning after first week of any GT at any rider who is leading 8)
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #292 on: July 16, 2012, 21:44 »
    Yes, yes, but my point was that Pinot is not very attractive for doubters as Wiggins and Sky ;)
    Doubters dont have any favorite rider or team, coz sooner or later they will found them selves in deep sh*t how to explain their conduct ;D, all they know is moaning after first week of any GT at any rider who is leading 8)
    Yeh totally agree.
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  • pedaling squares

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #293 on: July 16, 2012, 23:02 »
    Phew - I must say, I'm very pleased he's written this.
    The assumption of guilt has been taken too far by many. I hope this at least tempers that slightly.
    Unfortunately, history has shown us thousands of times that the prospect of negative consequences is a terrible indicator of innocence.
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  • "Well don't run with the riders, you twit."

    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #294 on: July 17, 2012, 01:13 »
    Been thinking about the Wiggins data thing

    the pro's

    + It gets his data out and he can "prove" he is clean

    the negatives

    + it counts for nothing if other riders dont follow suit
    + the amateur haemotologists will have a field day
    + he will be accused of lying about the figures
    + there will be a sh*tstorm when they get taken down again

    My suggestion to Brad would be give the figures to someone who is respected such as Ashenden. Let him publish them, along with an accompanying study of what he gets from the figures (with the agreement that he can publish it unedited but Sky have the right of reply).

    That way everyones happy.

    I do like that idea.  Putting out results for all kinds of amateteurs (read w*****s and c***s  ;D) to analyse is not really a good idea.  But independent analysis would go some way towards allaying some of the general chatter.

    Interviews such as the other day, thoughtful responses that treat people with respect go a lot further than abusive ones though  :)   Even if people dont agree or believe him, abusing the fans who are asking genuine questions isnt the way to go.
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #295 on: July 17, 2012, 04:24 »
    Wait why not Thibaut Pinot, yesterday he was anonymous French rider, and now he is top ten. If you ask me, something smelly for sure ;D

    Is this the same Pinot who has been struggling for days? What about Taaramae?

    There is a big difference to a very talented rider having a few good days and being a GT GC contender.

    Rolland is a better example  ::)

    It is very similar to Evans, Hesjedal and Kessiakoff all of whom are former mountain bikers and have started to display their full road and specifically GT climbing talent at a later age.

    Evans who set a national climbing record at 21, who won on Kitzbuheler Horn at 24, and in his first full season as a pro was one climb away from the Giro at 25?

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #296 on: July 17, 2012, 19:24 »
    I was looking at something else and saw this

    I laughed

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  • Sprout

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #297 on: July 17, 2012, 21:07 »
    Before two weeks no one even gives a sh*t for Wiggins or Sky, now all the sudden every single doubter is on ;D
    Today Wiggins/Sky, tomorrow any rider or team who ride good, it is just silly if you ask me.
    Wait why not Thibaut Pinot, yesterday he was anonymous French rider, and now he is top ten. If you ask me, something smelly for sure ;D
    agree on the first bit. Its the tour someone is winning so bring out the drug conspiracies, where have they been all season. Perhaps thats why Brad is so peed off. Where were the questioms following the Dauphne or Paris Nice
    O
    Should have been handled better by Brad and sky really. his peice in the Guardian was what he should have said to the press afer pulling on yellow
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #298 on: July 18, 2012, 00:06 »
    Is this the same Pinot who has been struggling for days? What about Taaramae?

    There is a big difference to a very talented rider having a few good days and being a GT GC contender.

    Rolland is a better example  ::)

    Put Pinot, Taaremae, or Rolland in Sky as a leader and you will have GT contender. Every single rider who finished GT has brilliant fitness, and any top ten rider is super human dude.
    What Pinot is struggling after 70 hours in saddle for two weeks? No way! What he would do? Smiling and writing on forums instead ;D

    I say big difference my ass 8)
    Top ten dudes are animals, animals. When someone understand that it is going to be easier to him watching races 8)

    Evans who set a national climbing record at 21, who won on Kitzbuheler Horn at 24, and in his first full season as a pro was one climb away from the Giro at 25?
    Really dont have a clue what that mean ::)
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #299 on: July 18, 2012, 00:09 »
    agree on the first bit. Its the tour someone is winning so bring out the drug conspiracies, where have they been all season. Perhaps thats why Brad is so peed off. Where were the questioms following the Dauphne or Paris Nice
    O
    Should have been handled better by Brad and sky really. his peice in the Guardian was what he should have said to the press afer pulling on yellow
    Yes, Wiggins is kind David Beckham of cycling these days ;D, and now we have even his wife on Twitter 8)
    Media is all over his ass, if he lost he is fliped up, if he won he is doped :D There is no third way for such a super stars.
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