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just some guy

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Re: Sky
« Reply #300 on: July 26, 2012, 09:38 »
was trolling through CN and came across this name 

Fabio Bartalucci , Dr. Maserati found this.

Larri can come and link some stuff as he has a history and has been working with Team Sky since last year.

Now DB said they got Geert working with the team due to not knowing how to treat certain cycling related problems but why 2 Drs with past issues. This Dr has even been up against Coni - http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2001/agosto/18/Sono_gli_avvisi_garanzia_per_co_0_0108188088.shtml

and he has worked with Nicole Cooke - http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/nicole-cooke-i-hated-cycling-i-was-in-pain-i-wanted-to-quit-966040.html?afid=af

So some better ask DB why he needs 2 Drs with pasts now.

Of course it does not mean they are doping but they are moving further away from their own mission statement
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #301 on: July 26, 2012, 13:32 »
    That's the first piece of evidence against Sky that has got me thinking, "That's not good." as opposed to, 'That doesn't look good."

    "And he took me to see a doctor he'd worked with before with other athletes, Fabio Bartolucci, and he was able to offer advice and guidelines on how I could try and progress. And things started progressing. They were going OK – still not great – but then in March Fabio took on my coaching as well, and with his medical knowledge he was able to really help prescribe the training for my needs and my limits. And since then it's all been going well. It is a big turnaround. I think it's because I really believed in my dream and really wanted to make it happen and didn't give up when perhaps I might have done."
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #302 on: July 26, 2012, 13:33 »
    was trolling through CN and came across this name 

    Fabio Bartalucci , Dr. Maserati found this.

    Larri can come and link some stuff as he has a history and has been working with Team Sky since last year.

    Now DB said they got Geert working with the team due to not knowing how to treat certain cycling related problems but why 2 Drs with past issues. This Dr has even been up against Coni - http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2001/agosto/18/Sono_gli_avvisi_garanzia_per_co_0_0108188088.shtml

    and he has worked with Nicole Cooke - http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/nicole-cooke-i-hated-cycling-i-was-in-pain-i-wanted-to-quit-966040.html?afid=af

    So some better ask DB why he needs 2 Drs with pasts now.

    Of course it does not mean they are doping but they are moving further away from their own mission statement

    Bartalucci was a doctor at Bonjour in that team's difficult Giro in 2001. He appears to have become embroiled in the Giro Blitz investigation and then one of the Bonjour riders (Noan Lelarge) tested positive two or three weeks later for a minor corticosteroid in the same race.

    Corticosteroids were common among the haul of substances in the Blitz but they are not among the sport's most serious substances or methods. Indeed there is a lingering sense that, despite spilling out cycling's dirty laundry all over the floor, the whole Blitz investigation did not really lead to much. Out of 51 indictees, only 8 were ever punished.

    http://www.dopeology.org/teams/Bonjour/

    The Bonjour team was later responsored as Bouygues Telecom and its infrastructure has remained largely intact until the present day as Team Europcar.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #303 on: July 26, 2012, 13:43 »
    He was on Cervelo Test Team with Carlos Sastre so Hitch needs to tread a bit carefully on this one.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #304 on: July 26, 2012, 13:46 »
    Idly googling and it would appear he joined Phonak in 2001
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #305 on: July 26, 2012, 13:49 »
    Idly googling and it would appear he joined Phonak in 2001

    Correct  ::)
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #306 on: July 26, 2012, 13:52 »
    But then Bouygues Telecom in 2008. There couldn't be two could there?
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #307 on: July 26, 2012, 13:52 »
    Phonak 2002-? (probably until end when staff quit en masse)
    FDJ 2005-6
    Cervélo 2009-10
    Sky 2011-
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #308 on: July 26, 2012, 13:59 »
    Not a good sign clearly.
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #309 on: July 26, 2012, 14:10 »
    Be interesting to note what Vroomen's reaction be? He's stated his stance on anti doping, and said that the allegations against sky are a bit unwarranted, but he sponsored a team with a doping doctor? How does he defend that when questioning others like Frei via his blag?
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #310 on: July 26, 2012, 15:39 »
    Be interesting to note what Vroomen's reaction be? He's stated his stance on anti doping, and said that the allegations against sky are a bit unwarranted, but he sponsored a team with a doping doctor? How does he defend that when questioning others like Frei via his blag?

    Vroomen is up there with Vaughter's on the anti-doping stance. Not credible imo.

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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #311 on: July 26, 2012, 15:44 »
    Vroomen is up there with Vaughter's on the anti-doping stance. Not credible imo.

    Guy makes bikes. He has as much interest as anyone in keeping things smooth unless the perp is riding Trek or some other brand, in which case hang 'em high. ;)
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #312 on: July 26, 2012, 15:47 »
    Guy makes bikes. He has as much interest as anyone in keeping things smooth unless the perp is riding Trek or some other brand, in which case hang 'em high. ;)

    Exactamundo  :tu
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #313 on: July 26, 2012, 18:52 »
    He was on Cervelo Test Team with Carlos Sastre so Hitch needs to tread a bit carefully on this one.

    I never claimed.either sastre or wiggins were clean or dirty. Sastre certainly would not be a surprise if he doped. But wiggins defense these days is - no positive, no scandal = 100% clean, your not even allowed to ask questions.

    So by iwiggins standards he has.no right to make any suggestions that sastre doped. My own standards there is definitely a lot to be sceptical about with sastre but exactly the same for wiggins.

    Its either or though. You cast have 1 standard for riders not named wiggins and another for brad.
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Sprout

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #314 on: July 26, 2012, 19:55 »
    As I said in the shoutbox and that is not to say there isn't any doping at Sky, but if one of the team (brits especially) test positive thean the whole British track programme is implicated and Dave Brailsford would be facing enourmous questions.

    There might be doping, but there are massive consequences if there is. It would ruin and cats doubts on so many. I think Brad handled some of the early press conferences badly. His peice in The Guardian is what he should have said in the first place. If he was caught it would make him look stupid based on that (again doesn't mean he isn't lying)

    On the Doctor front. they might just be good doctors, all be it ones with questionable pasts. Doesn't mean that they are  doping guys now.

    I just find it horrible that we have another tour winner and people have to dig for any sort of dirt. I say that as a Cycling fand rather than a Team Sky fan.


    No doubt if Nibali won people would be digging on him and Leakygas.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #315 on: July 26, 2012, 21:05 »
    As I said in the shoutbox and that is not to say there isn't any doping at Sky, but if one of the team (brits especially) test positive thean the whole British track programme is implicated and Dave Brailsford would be facing enourmous questions.

    There might be doping, but there are massive consequences if there is. It would ruin and cats doubts on so many. I think Brad handled some of the early press conferences badly. His peice in The Guardian is what he should have said in the first place. If he was caught it would make him look stupid based on that (again doesn't mean he isn't lying)

    On the Doctor front. they might just be good doctors, all be it ones with questionable pasts. Doesn't mean that they are  doping guys now.

    I just find it horrible that we have another tour winner and people have to dig for any sort of dirt. I say that as a Cycling fand rather than a Team Sky fan.


    No doubt if Nibali won people would be digging on him and Leakygas.
    I'm a fan too. The implications for the UK are huge, way beyond a few sportsmen, to how we view cycling as a nation and how we participate in it.

    However, that doesn't mean questions shouldn't be asked or answered.

    In Nibali's case, I'm sure most exiles from CN remember the stories of him being spotted alongside Basso with Ferrari on a scooter before the 2010 Giro
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #316 on: July 26, 2012, 21:11 »
    As I said in the shoutbox and that is not to say there isn't any doping at Sky, but if one of the team (brits especially) test positive thean the whole British track programme is implicated and Dave Brailsford would be facing enourmous questions.

    There might be doping, but there are massive consequences if there is. It would ruin and cats doubts on so many. I think Brad handled some of the early press conferences badly. His peice in The Guardian is what he should have said in the first place. If he was caught it would make him look stupid based on that (again doesn't mean he isn't lying)

    On the Doctor front. they might just be good doctors, all be it ones with questionable pasts. Doesn't mean that they are  doping guys now.

    I just find it horrible that we have another tour winner and people have to dig for any sort of dirt. I say that as a Cycling fand rather than a Team Sky fan.

    Why is it only the Brits who feel this.

    Plenty have been caught doping and their coaches and teams have extracted themselves from any involvement with the ever helpful media. Cycling is full of such scenarios.

    But if any rider on the Sky GT team tests positive it will have been an internal doping program. Apparently they have spent since a lot time since the Vuelta together preparing for the TdF. But i fully expect Sky to wash their hands of it as is the standard method.

    You have to ask yourself as a cycling fan, why does a team like Sky break their own clean manifesto and say nothing! Brailsford was adamant that he would not hire David Millar his friend for Sky due to his doping ban. I mean Brailford could've said I'll hire him because i believe him and i will be able to guarantee he will be clean at Sky. Then he breaks it without any communication statement of transparency. There can only be one reason. But they are stupid to think it wouldn't come out. History repeats itself and nearly every major team in the sport has been caught for doping one way or another. Sky will be no different if they are not clean and all the signs are pointing in the direction of a team doping program.

    No doubt if Nibali won people would be digging on him and Leakygas.

    Evans got his thread last year. ;) :win

    I have no doubt that Nibali works with Ferarri or similar. I have no evidence but again this is how it is done in Italy. If he won there would  definitely have been a thread. But as we and the 'other', are English 'written' forums ,there was of course a huge discourse over Wiggins, but not just because he is AngloSaxon, but by his manner of win, his abuse of cycling fans after hsi own anti doping rants in 2007, his team doctors, his domestiques performances, his Lieutenant's amazing performances in Vuelta and TdF.

    These are not pie in the Sky ;D accusations being levelled, they have some basis for the questioning, doubting and Sky know that but they have dealt with in the exact same manner we have had from other doping teams.

    Poor Sky, were they really that naive to think because of their declarations of transparency and being a British team that their performances would be celebrated without question. :fp

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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #317 on: July 26, 2012, 21:16 »
    I'm a fan too. The implications for the UK are huge, way beyond a few sportsmen, to how we view cycling as a nation and how we participate in it.

    However, that doesn't mean questions shouldn't be asked or answered.


    I would've thought that any implications would happen soon and Brit Cycling would make it clear to Brailsford that Leinders and Bartalucci got to go. After the Olympics or Worlds. But that is pre-supposing BC are not in on it. I imagine they are. They are sweet on the deal.

    The days of falling on one's sword are consigned to history. Taking full responsibility for others actions is not done anymore. We live in a blame culture where everyone else is to blame.
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  • Sprout

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #318 on: July 26, 2012, 21:25 »
    Questions should always be asked I agree and it's obvious to see why there are with the sort of performances Sky/Wiggins have given this year.

    Sky have definitley deviated from their manifesto, but was that manifesto a bit naive to begin with? I'd say so. Easy to make all the bold statements before you venture into the new and unknown and realise it's not as easy as you first thought. Perhaps Sky are guilty, or perhaps they are embarrassed/sheepish about how they have had to change tack from their original aim a bit

    Cycling has it's history and nuiances that I suppose until you are in it you can't avoid or escape. I mean I'm only talking as a cycling fan. Lord knows what it's like in the Peleton and being able to understand what goes on and what is said and what is a given

    If Sky are guilty, I hope they are caught. I would hate it as a fan and It is unimaginable what damage it would do to the whole of British cycling, but so be it
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  • usedtobefast

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #319 on: August 02, 2012, 01:49 »
    well, it seems that Sky have the "preparation" down. just going one better, without going one over. like going not quite to digital zero, but 1 tick under.
    hats off,well done ;) ;D
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #320 on: August 10, 2012, 09:49 »
    Brailsford is really trying hard to push a UKPostal image with more comparisons to 7 time TdF fraud Armstrong!

    Talking about Wiggins getting some training time in over the winter.

    Quote
    That’s where the guys who had repeated success on something like the Tour de France, like Armstrong, it’s a phenomenal achievement, in that sense, to manage your life

    http://road.cc/content/news/63136-bradley-wiggins-latest-season-will-be-crucial-tour-defence-says-brailsford#comment-115591

    I would've thought the last person on the planet right now they would even mention in the same room as Wiggins would be Armstrong, but no, the  Sky egos are out of control.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #321 on: August 25, 2012, 21:02 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-armstrong-warned-before-all-doping-controls

    Quote
    He also believes riders are still showing suspicious signs.

    "Work together with Antoine Vayer [LeMond columnist], the performance specialist, helped show the implausibility of the power generated in watts on the climbs. Moreover, it is interesting to note that the UCI has banned the publication of such real-time statistics in 2012. And we can understand why when you see that the power production by [Bradley] Wiggins and [Chris] Froome (first and second of the Tour) is comparable to the turbulent times of the late 1990s and early 2000s."

    food for thought
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #322 on: August 30, 2012, 09:50 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-armstrong-warned-before-all-doping-controls

    food for thought
    It would be if it were true.

    Everything I've read says that Wiggins and Froome are way slower than Armstrong/Pantani and are well within the bounds of what is considered physically plausible. Just looking at the videos of Armstrong/Pantani gives you a good idea of whether either claim is accurate or not.

    But if someone can show me some output from someone respected in the field, that shows that Wiggins and Froome are as dodgy as what went before, I'll (sadly) revise my opinion.


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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #323 on: August 30, 2012, 09:59 »
    It would be if it were true.

    Everything I've read says that Wiggins and Froome are way slower than Armstrong/Pantani and are well within the bounds of what is considered physically plausible. Just looking at the videos of Armstrong/Pantani gives you a good idea of whether either claim is accurate or not.

    But if someone can show me some output from someone respected in the field, that shows that Wiggins and Froome are as dodgy as what went before, I'll (sadly) revise my opinion.

    Antoine Vayer is pretty respected as it goes. I don't know if and where he publishes the numbers he uses. What I think Vayer suggests is that Armstrong's/Pantani's numbers were ridiculous - that's a given. However, he also suggests that Wiggins' and Froome's are less but still not natural.

    I translated Le Monde's recent interview with Vayer someplace here. Naturally, I'm too lazy to find it, but it's probably in the Armstrong thread. ;)

    I afford Vayer as much airtime as I do Team Sky, which is to say that I don't know anything for sure, so I will just be content to listen to everything.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #324 on: August 30, 2012, 10:00 »
    It would be if it were true.

    Everything I've read says that Wiggins and Froome are way slower than Armstrong/Pantani and are well within the bounds of what is considered physically plausible. Just looking at the videos of Armstrong/Pantani gives you a good idea of whether either claim is accurate or not.

    But if someone can show me some output from someone respected in the field, that shows that Wiggins and Froome are as dodgy as what went before, I'll (sadly) revise my opinion.

    here is the issue only Sky will have the real numbers

    you have the sports science website saying 1 thing and these French guys saying another.

    and us discussing, getting upset and some throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    by the way anyone know what is plausible ?

    no one can really as we are using comparisons to things with way too many variables.

     
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #325 on: August 30, 2012, 10:45 »
    Of course it's plausible, the 90s are long gone.

    Not so plausible is having four Greg Lemonds in the same team.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #326 on: August 30, 2012, 11:12 »
    I look at Michele Ferarri's brief report on 53x12 and read Andrew Coggan's posts on CN too. Both have had a 'Nothing to get excited about' ring to them.

    Reading up on Vayer, he had access to the data on the two speed team at Festina, so he bases his assumptions on that.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #327 on: August 30, 2012, 12:00 »
    Of course it's plausible, the 90s are long gone.

    Not so plausible is having four Greg Lemonds in the same team.
    Why not? If I recruit 9 Lemonds, I have a team of 9 Lemonds.

    RNT had stronger climbers overall
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #328 on: August 30, 2012, 12:09 »
    Why not? If I recruit 9 Lemonds, I have a team of 9 Lemonds.

    RNT had stronger climbers overall

    When life gives you Lemonds, make Lemondade...
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #329 on: August 30, 2012, 14:26 »
    Why not? If I recruit 9 Lemonds, I have a team of 9 Lemonds.

    RNT had stronger climbers overall

    Where do I order a Lemond?
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