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just some guy

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Re: Sky
« Reply #330 on: August 30, 2012, 14:40 »
Carmichael industries  ;)
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #331 on: August 31, 2012, 03:47 »
    I look at Michele Ferarri's brief report on 53x12 and read Andrew Coggan's posts on CN too. Both have had a 'Nothing to get excited about' ring to them.

    Reading up on Vayer, he had access to the data on the two speed team at Festina, so he bases his assumptions on that.
    Nothing to get excited about for top climbers is not the same as nothing to.get excited about for 4 riders who have spent recent.tdfs in the gruppetto.

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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Lanced Armprong

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #332 on: August 31, 2012, 20:32 »
    Where do I order a Lemond?

    Wonder if there's a sugar free version...
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  • FreeWheelin

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #333 on: September 01, 2012, 05:32 »
    Where do I order a Lemond?

    BALCO labs?  :-[
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #334 on: September 01, 2012, 10:32 »
    Nothing to get excited about for top climbers is not the same as nothing to.get excited about for 4 riders who have spent recent.tdfs in the gruppetto.
    You're just making stuff up now.

    The funny thing is, when Sky signed Rogers and then Porte, no-one went, "Ha ha, crap riders who won't be any use at all." As I remember, the buzz from the CN forum was, "Holy smoke, that'll make Sky strong in the mountains."

    It's a bit of a distant memory now but if you can prove me wrong....
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #335 on: September 01, 2012, 22:32 »
    They are obviously good riders who logically could have had the potential to achieve what they had (without any additions)

    That all of them all were on top form and all seeming to be at the very peak of the ability is unlikely, but if there was one team who could achieve such it would be Sky with their meticulous planning.
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    pedaling squares

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #336 on: September 02, 2012, 00:18 »
    You're just making stuff up now.

    The funny thing is, when Sky signed Rogers and then Porte, no-one went, "Ha ha, crap riders who won't be any use at all." As I remember, the buzz from the CN forum was, "Holy smoke, that'll make Sky strong in the mountains."

    It's a bit of a distant memory now but if you can prove me wrong....
    I would agree with that, but I think the general commentary was along the lines of what you wrote, "strong in the mountains" and not "now Sky have a couple of horses who can lead the peloton up HC cols at an insane pace and whittle the pack down to a half dozen men", which is what we saw them do in the toughest race of the year. I saw riders who I had expected to be very useful mtn domestiques destroying teams and putting GC candidates into trouble. So yeah, eyebrows up.
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  • "Well don't run with the riders, you twit."

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #337 on: September 02, 2012, 13:58 »
    I would agree with that, but I think the general commentary was along the lines of what you wrote, "strong in the mountains" and not "now Sky have a couple of horses who can lead the peloton up HC cols at an insane pace and whittle the pack down to a half dozen men", which is what we saw them do in the toughest race of the year. I saw riders who I had expected to be very useful mtn domestiques destroying teams and putting GC candidates into trouble. So yeah, eyebrows up.
    Rafael Majka dropped Robert Gesink yesterday...
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  • killswitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #338 on: September 02, 2012, 19:56 »
    Rafal Majka dropped Robert Gesink yesterday...
    He's been touted as a future GC contender by Riis for a long time. And Gesink is... Gesink.  :police:
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  • Joelsim: The huge winner today - Landa.
    just some guy: Aye he marginal gained the flip out of it

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #339 on: September 02, 2012, 20:19 »
    He's been touted as a future GC contender by Riis for a long time. And Gesink is... Gesink.  :police:
    Trust me know  :fp I have in my Cq team...  :police:

    If only Riis had said when he will be a GC contender..


    Ps: Also have Gesink, but that is another story...  :P
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #340 on: September 03, 2012, 00:50 »
    You're just making stuff up now.

    The funny thing is, when Sky signed Rogers and then Porte, no-one went, "Ha ha, crap riders who won't be any use at all." As I remember, the buzz from the CN forum was, "Holy smoke, that'll make Sky strong in the mountains."

    It's a bit of a distant memory now but if you can prove me wrong....

    Froome finished his first TDF in 84th. On stage 15 for example he finished 25 minutes down, in a 40 man group that contained Hushovd Mcewen Eisel etc.

    Gruppeto no?

    Wiggins finished the 06 Alpe stage 30 minutes down in a 30 man group including Grabsh and Robbie Hunter

    Am i being harsh on wiggins to say he finished that in the gruppeto.

    ok then, lets say that was a chasing group  ::), next day, 44 minutes down in an 80 man group and only 2 riders finished behind that.

    Is that not the gruppeto?

    For a future tdf winner, who afterwards said that finishing the tour was his bit of cycling history, that is just comical.


    Now Richie Porte.

    1st tdf, last year in fact, queen stage to Galibier, 33:40 down, 2 and a half minutes behind Julian dean. But ill be generous because julian dean did win the king of the mountains at the tour of new zealand and the cav gruppeto finished a whopping 2 minutes behind Porte, so technically he did just about beat the gruppeto (assuming the 20 man group 2 minutes in front of him, doesnt count as a gruppeto)

    Which brings us to Michael Rogers, by far and away the creme de la creme of the UK Postal mountain service.

    With my limited - guess what result he could have sucked at and see the ranking, search method, the worst i could find for him was finishing 22 minutes behind in a 10 man group on 2010 stage 17 to tourmalet.

    Ok so i admit it, i was wrong i apologize. Micahel Rogers has indeed to my knowledge not oficialy finished in a gruppeto.

    Ill correct myself.

    It was only wiggins, froome and porte, the 3 best climbers  of the Uk postal service (including the 2 best of the entire tour) who have finished in the gruppeto.
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #341 on: September 03, 2012, 10:21 »
    If you look at 2011 to show how bad Porte was and say that he is now doping it Sky, you come to the conclusion of 2010 doped, 2011 clean, 2012 doped. This does not match with his TT performances which have been consistent throughout his short career.

    Purely in terms of career progression, Porte comes out looking the best of the lot.
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  • Lanced Armprong

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #342 on: September 03, 2012, 19:55 »
    Remember when Wiggins placed 4th (now 3rd lol) at the 2009 TdF, when riding for a clean (so we believe...) team, and it was pre-Leinders...

    Yeah guess he hasn't ever shown previous form, bearing in mind all previous GTs he took part in before '09 were at a time when he hadn't given up the track to focus on road 100%.

    What am I saying, he must be doping!

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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #343 on: September 03, 2012, 22:10 »
    Nothing to get excited about for top climbers is not the same as nothing to.get excited about for 4 riders who have spent recent.tdfs in the gruppetto.
    If you look carefully, you will see you used the word 'recent' in this post. 2006 is not recent, it is half a career ago. In Wiggins's case, a career in a different arm of the sport ago.
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #344 on: September 04, 2012, 00:25 »
    I don't know anyone who thinks he is doping now that thinks he was clean in 2009.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #345 on: September 04, 2012, 20:11 »
    Will Sky fans at least aknowledge that his response to what he thinks about the Lance case - "its bad for the sport" shows that his attitude towards doping is a million miles away from the wiggins who was finishing in the gruppeto in 2006 and 7, and that it is far far more towards the omerta direction, than it was when he said for example

     -
    Quote
    'You bastard Landis,' I thought. You have completely ruined my own small achievement of getting around the Tour de France and being a small part of cycling history. You and guys like you are peeing on my sport and my dreams. "

    I have no idea how yall do reconcile his tremendous shift towards the pro omerta stance just as he became a gt contender, but will  you at least aknowledge that the shift clearly exists?
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  • « Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 20:30 by The Hitch »

    Lanced Armprong

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #346 on: September 04, 2012, 21:02 »
    Will Sky fans at least aknowledge that his response to what he thinks about the Lance case - "its bad for the sport" shows that his attitude towards doping is a million miles away from the wiggins who was finishing in the gruppeto in 2006 and 7, and that it is far far more towards the omerta direction, than it was when he said for example

     -
    I have no idea how yall do reconcile his tremendous shift towards the pro omerta stance just as he became a gt contender, but will  you at least aknowledge that the shift clearly exists?

    The moment I get annoyed about no-one (not just Sky riders) speaking out about the Lance case is IF, when the full evidence is released in a week or so, they still don't speak out.

    I wonder at the moment if this is why no-one is really talking - we can all see (and have done for years) that Lance is guilty as hell - I kind of get the impression a lot of them are waiting to see the evidence first. I'm just being patient right now - we've waited this long for it to come out, what's another week or so?

    As for Wiggo, unfortunately, I strongly believe Sky's PR machine have him well and truly gagged on speaking his mind as openly as he used to - the only times we really hear his own words are if he's just finished a tough stage and a reporter shoves a mic in his cakehole.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #347 on: September 06, 2012, 12:58 »
    ...
    I have no idea how yall do reconcile his tremendous shift towards the pro omerta stance just as he became a gt contender, but will  you at least aknowledge that the shift clearly exists?
    I acknowledge that the shift exists.

    It is one of a number of things that are somewhere on the spectrum of Disappointing to Suspicious. Geraint Thomas's comments were particularly troubling.

    But there is no smoking gun, or indeed evidence of any gun crime. Plenty of such evidence in just about every other team. I don't get the equating of having suspicious attitudes to clear evidence of doping.
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #348 on: September 06, 2012, 13:53 »
    As for Wiggo, unfortunately, I strongly believe Sky's PR machine have him well and truly gagged on speaking his mind as openly as he used to - the only times we really hear his own words are if he's just finished a tough stage and a reporter shoves a mic in his cakehole.

    I totally agree. The shift in him becoming a GT contender coincides with his coming under the auspicies of DB and all at Team Sky, who are good at keeping things close to their chest. Even Cav hasn't been that outspoken this season!

    I'm also hoping that the release of the full USADA evidence prompts comment from the top tier of the peloton - both riders and managers need to come out and say something strong; I think there will be a pressure on Sky and Wiggins to lead the way, especially given a) the team's anti-doping attitude and b) Wiggo's previous comments. If someone demonstrably clean comes out, surely others will follow?

    And if not, we should all despair.
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #349 on: September 06, 2012, 17:36 »
    I totally agree. The shift in him becoming a GT contender coincides with his coming under the auspicies of DB and all at Team Sky, who are good at keeping things close to their chest. Even Cav hasn't been that outspoken this season!

    I'm also hoping that the release of the full USADA evidence prompts comment from the top tier of the peloton - both riders and managers need to come out and say something strong; I think there will be a pressure on Sky and Wiggins to lead the way, especially given a) the team's anti-doping attitude and b) Wiggo's previous comments. If someone demonstrably clean comes out, surely others will follow?

    And if not, we should all despair.

    Better start despairing because you are not going to hear it, especially from Sky/Wiggins.

    Everyone is scared to condemn unless they too get landed in the mire.
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  • « Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 17:53 by benotti69 »
    "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #350 on: September 06, 2012, 17:57 »
    Better start despairing because you are not going to hear it, especially from Sky/Wiggins.

    Everyone is scared to condemn unless they too get landed in the mire.
    Totally true, and that is where cycling can't win.
    If fans are not going to believe anything and will always remain suspicous then what is the point of any riders speaking out or even attempting to try? It will never put you in a positive light in some peoples eyes..
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #351 on: September 06, 2012, 18:09 »
    Totally true, and that is where cycling can't win.
    If fans are not going to believe anything and will always remain suspicous then what is the point of any riders speaking out or even attempting to try? It will never put you in a positive light in some peoples eyes..

    If you are clean, say it loud and proud. Have no fear. Better to ride with the truth out in the light then ride in the dark under a cloud of suspicion.

    I wanna hear a rider call for more testing, call for samples to be stored to be tested in the future to catch those doping now, better late than never etc etc etc

    If you get hassle for that at least riders know they can go to anti-doping agencies and report it, what good i will do, i dont know.

    But i never understood riders starting pro careers with no back up qualifications. Nowadays most pro footballers take coaching badges before their career ends.

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #352 on: September 24, 2012, 13:37 »
    Brailsford vague on Leinders investigation - “I think we’re addressing the issue”

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/brailsford-vague-on-leinders-investigation

    Why not just say yes we are investigating, we hope for a public statement soon  and leave it at that
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  • Rolling Along

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #353 on: September 24, 2012, 13:54 »
    I dont understand why Brailsford seems to be mis-managing this Leinders buisiness.  By not handling it properly, and having a satisfactory line of response as to the result of the investigation he spoke off in the Jul interview with Lionel Birnie, he's doing his team and his riders a massive disservice.

    I dont thnk Brailsford takes kindly to being forced to react to pressure from conventional and social media.  But Dave, it aint going to go away. With Kimmage now having discovered a way of spreading his messages via Twitter, conventional libel law restrictions not havng to come into play with social media, and hooking in via David Walsh with the various interwebz media platforms, plus  Velonation and Cyclingnews in particular, this aint going to go away - its just going to escalate.



     
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #354 on: September 24, 2012, 13:59 »
    Quote
    "Team Sky had pledged that it would only employ doctors who had never before worked on professional cycling teams, supposedly in order to ensure that the sins of cycling’s past could have no place in this new team."

    Quote
    "Cyclingnews asked Brailsford for details on the nature of the supposed investigation"

    Cutting, very cutting.
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  • Rolling Along

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #355 on: September 24, 2012, 14:04 »
    yeah. Cyclingnews and Velonation have both had a thing about Sky since they set up shop in 2010 - love Garmin, hate Sky (IMO) - but Brailsford has left himself and his team open to this. 
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #356 on: September 24, 2012, 18:07 »
    I dont understand why Brailsford seems to be mis-managing this Leinders buisiness.  By not handling it properly, and having a satisfactory line of response as to the result of the investigation he spoke off in the Jul interview with Lionel Birnie, he's doing his team and his riders a massive disservice.

    I dont thnk Brailsford takes kindly to being forced to react to pressure from conventional and social media.  But Dave, it aint going to go away. With Kimmage now having discovered a way of spreading his messages via Twitter, conventional libel law restrictions not havng to come into play with social media, and hooking in via David Walsh with the various interwebz media platforms, plus  Velonation and Cyclingnews in particular, this aint going to go away - its just going to escalate.

    Mis-managing? It looks like he is about to get caught lying.

    There has been no investigation and there never will be. They knew full well what Leinders was bringing to the team it is why he was hired. A doping doctor who they thought no one would question them about.

    An investigation into Leinders would take a few days at most. Cycling is a small sport. It has been over 2 months.

    Ashenden said it when he called 'new age teams' having 'doping elements'.

    Leinders was only hired for 80 days to work with the GT TdF team. Goal achieved.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #357 on: September 24, 2012, 18:09 »
    Mis-managing? It looks like he is about to get caught lying.

    There has been no investigation and there never will be. They knew full well what Leinders was bringing to the team it is why he was hired. A doping doctor who they thought no one would question them about.

    An investigation into Leinders would take a few days at most. Cycling is a small sport. It has been over 2 months.

    Ashenden said it when he called 'new age teams' having 'doping elements'.

    Leinders was only hired for 80 days to work with the GT TdF team. Goal achieved.

    Alternatively Sky could have discovered something they did not like and therefore they and specifically DB are reticent to talk about it..
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  • Rolling Along

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #358 on: September 24, 2012, 18:18 »
    Mis-managing? It looks like he is about to get caught lying.

    There has been no investigation and there never will be. They knew full well what Leinders was bringing to the team it is why he was hired. A doping doctor who they thought no one would question them about.

    An investigation into Leinders would take a few days at most. Cycling is a small sport. It has been over 2 months.

    Ashenden said it when he called 'new age teams' having 'doping elements'.

    Leinders was only hired for 80 days to work with the GT TdF team. Goal achieved.


    You are convinced that Sky are up to their necks in doping. I, however, am not. Our views are unlikely to converge.
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  • Rolling Along

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #359 on: September 24, 2012, 18:20 »
    Froome, yes, that's possible - but DB needs to be ready to handle the questions better, I feel.
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