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Capt_Cavman

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Re: Sky
« Reply #360 on: September 24, 2012, 20:04 »
So was  Leinders the Rabobank dr, i.e. one of one? Or was he a Rabobank dr i.e. one of many?
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #361 on: September 25, 2012, 10:01 »
    So was  Leinders the Rabobank dr, i.e. one of one? Or was he a Rabobank dr i.e. one of many?

    One of several. Riders were also free to consult their own doctor.

    This latter aspect can sometimes cause friction between riders and management, some of which forbid use of 'outside' doctors. It can work both ways: 'outside' doctors are not necessarily the bad guys.

    Sometimes, such a restriction disables you from preferring your innocent family GP/MD (the only guy to whom Bassons would go throughout his career, he has said) while the 'inside' guys might be running the programme.  ???
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon / Larry Sarni

    Jamsque

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #362 on: September 25, 2012, 10:35 »
    Mis-managing? It looks like he is about to get caught lying.

    There has been no investigation and there never will be. They knew full well what Leinders was bringing to the team it is why he was hired. A doping doctor who they thought no one would question them about.

    An investigation into Leinders would take a few days at most. Cycling is a small sport. It has been over 2 months.

    Ashenden said it when he called 'new age teams' having 'doping elements'.

    Leinders was only hired for 80 days to work with the GT TdF team. Goal achieved.

    So Leinders is the flipping Hematocrit Whisperer now or something?
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #363 on: October 09, 2012, 00:44 »
    kimmage on twitter

    Quote
    I find it curious that the Leinders "issue" has not been addressed by Bradley Wiggins. Bradley used to be extremely vocal about these issues


    In May 2010, on the day the Floyd Landis admission broke, I sent Dave Brailsford a text: 'Dave, you would be doing the sport a huge service


    ...if you encourage Michael Barry to tell the truth.' Brailsford was on the Giro with Barry that week. He phoned me back and I told him...


    ...Barry had been implicated by Floyd. The following morning, Brailsford told reporters he was "aware of the allegations" and said he...


    ...and said he would clarify the facts with the Canadian before taking any action. Barry denied Landis' claims. No action was taken.


    Brailsford had offered me full access to the team that summer for the Tour. On the eve of the race, the offer was withdrawn. "Bradley...


    ...wasn't happy," he said. I requested an interview with Barry but this was also refused. I called Jonathan Vaughters at Garmin and...


    ...and asked if I could come on board for the Tour. "Not a problem," he replied. So please, the soon-to-be Sir Dave, spare us the lectures..


    ...on ducking and diving and transparency.



    http://storify.com/UCI_Overlord/paul-kimmage-speaks-on-brailsford?utm_medium=sfy.co-twitter&utm_campaign=&utm_content=storify-pingback&awesm=sfy.co_oAEY&utm_source=t.co
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #364 on: October 09, 2012, 14:20 »
    So Leinders is the flipping Hematocrit Whisperer now or something?

    He is whatever you want him to be Jam, he can even be your unicorn  ;)
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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    Jamsque

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #365 on: October 09, 2012, 19:37 »
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #366 on: October 09, 2012, 19:48 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/leinders-not-renewed-after-team-sky-doping-investigation

    Looks like they caved. Too much negative attention.

    They did break their own mission statement - so expected I would guess in a world of skeptics
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #367 on: October 09, 2012, 19:51 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/leinders-not-renewed-after-team-sky-doping-investigation

    Looks like they caved. Too much negative attention.

    Interesting. And yet they still can't offer up any straight talk. Would it really kill them to be more straightforward and unambiguous?
    Quote
    Sky would not confirm why Leinders had not been offered a contract for the future.
    "Dr Leinders worked with Team Sky on a freelance basis and that has now ended."

    I wonder if they'll use the fact the Leinders is now gone as an excuse to longer have to talk about it?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #368 on: October 09, 2012, 19:53 »
    Is that thing in Manchester still happening ?

    If so I am sure it will be asked 
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #369 on: October 09, 2012, 20:59 »
    Interesting. And yet they still can't offer up any straight talk. Would it really kill them to be more straightforward and unambiguous?
    I wonder if they'll use the fact the Leinders is now gone as an excuse to longer have to talk about it?

    Kimmages response should be good  :)
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #370 on: October 10, 2012, 19:40 »
    Also something else to consider here from the USADA report:

    Quote
    Also in March 2005,

    Armstrong attended a training camp with Dr. Ferrari on the island of Tenerife. Armstrong

    invited Levi Leipheimer to Tenerife and introduced Leipheimer to Ferrari.413
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    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #371 on: October 12, 2012, 04:54 »
    So are sky going to look at, talk to or make any statement about Micheal Rogers?

    Rogers (along with Popo, Savoldelli, Mazzoleni, Keshekin and Vino) were named by Levi Leipheimer as having attended training camps with Dr Ferrari in 2005

    (these names strangely enough were not redacted in his affidavit (para's 68 + 69)
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #372 on: October 12, 2012, 06:54 »
    + Julich + Yates.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #373 on: October 12, 2012, 11:16 »
    yeah will be interesting to see what they do from here.

    Though at least some credit to their PR boys - at least Wiggins' statement was fairly ok.  He might not have liked it much, but he did need to make a public statement condemning Lance.

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  • cj2002

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #374 on: October 12, 2012, 11:40 »
    Given Wiggo's statements in the past, I wonder whether deep down he did like saying it, but for the sake of Sky's cosying up to Fat Pat pretended like he didn't.

    Double bluffing. Or is that triple bluffing...  :-\
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #375 on: October 12, 2012, 13:21 »
    + Julich + Yates.
    I think they've already stated that they were prepared to relax their stance when it comes to staff because of the difficulty in employing anyone over the age of thirty-five with the necessary pro peloton experience who can't be linked to PEDs in some way.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #376 on: October 12, 2012, 13:32 »
    I think they've already stated that they were prepared to relax their stance when it comes to staff because of the difficulty in employing anyone over the age of thirty-five with the necessary pro peloton experience who can't be linked to PEDs in some way.
    Well Michael Barry was over the age of 35  :P
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #377 on: October 12, 2012, 16:57 »
    Only around halfway through everything but apparently Ferrari claims in one of the Affadavits that Teide was not a good location for doping and he advised one of his clients not to travel to the area due to the fact that the anti-doping authorities were onto it and monitored it closely.

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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #378 on: October 12, 2012, 18:15 »
    Only around halfway through everything but apparently Ferrari claims in one of the Affadavits that Teide was not a good location for doping and he advised one of his clients not to travel to the area due to the fact that the anti-doping authorities were onto it and monitored it closely.

    Some of these comments by Ferrari chime in perfectly with the picture I have built up of him. He really does rate himself rather highly. Must be a nightmare to live with, kind of explains why his son is also his valet.

    It also relates to another question I often had: were their territories that should not be impinged upon? Did Fuentes favour certain locations for doing business and Ferrari others? There is certainly an appreciable sense of a theatre of activity with these guys.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #379 on: October 14, 2012, 15:54 »
    Sky Procycling will ask all of its staff members — among them sporting director Sean Yates, a former teammate and longtime friend of Lance Armstrong’s — to confirm that they have no issues that could breach the team’s zero-tolerance policy regarding doping.

    According to The Daily Telegraph, team boss Dave Brailsford “will seek assurances” after Michael Barry’s testimony turned up in the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency’s report on its investigation into Armstrong, Johan Bruyneel and the U.S. Postal Service team.

    Barry confessed to doping while riding for U.S. Postal and has retired.

    As for Yates, who roomed with Armstrong when the two rode for Motorola, helped the American learn his trade and later was recruited to manage Team Discovery, he said he was “shocked” at the depth of the doping allegations.

    “I worked with Lance but never had any inclination this was going on,” he said.

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/must-read-sky-asks-all-staff-for-assurances-following-michael-barrys-confession_261307

    I do wonder if it might be more than that

    ie if we find that your lying sh*t is going come down hard on you, Yates may have to think .....................

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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #380 on: October 14, 2012, 16:00 »
    bout time..
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #381 on: October 14, 2012, 16:34 »
    But I don't understand. As I only just posted the same in the "truth and reconciliation" thread...

    What are Brailsford's intentions? Does he march into a room and announce, "OK, lads, who wants to get fired today?"
    Isn't that what it amounts to? If Wiggins or Froome admitted to past transgressions, would we even hear about it?

    Or is it a matter of everyone buckling down and Brailsford emerging by saying, "That's it. We're all good now. I've just had everyone assure me that they have no doping pasts. Now we're really clean. It's true. All my riders and staff just told me so, just like they did the first time I asked them. Transparency. As a matter of fact, our team kit for 2013 will be made from clear plastic wrap, just so you can see how transparent we are. New Era"

    Maybe I'm just particularly dumb this morning, but none of this is making any sense whatsoever to me.

    (Or maybe I'm still disoriented from having missed another CX race >:()
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  • « Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 16:44 by Drummer Boy »

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #382 on: October 14, 2012, 16:36 »
    PR stunt DB..

    Go with the flow.. ;)
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #383 on: October 14, 2012, 22:47 »
    Statement from Sky: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/14/lance-armstrong-team-sky


    Quote
    Team Sky have said that they carried out checks on the Dutch doctor they employed and whose name has appeared in the Lance Armstrong doping controversy.

    Geert Leinders was with the team until last week and a spokesman said on Sunday: "Dr Leinders worked with Team Sky on a freelance basis and his contract has now ended.

    "This summer, as promised, we looked fully into his work with us, interviewed him and talked to riders and the full medical team. We had no doubts about his work with us or his approach. Before employing him we also made checks, gathered references and he was interviewed by [the sports psychiatrist] Dr Steve Peters.

    "Over the summer we have added to the medical team, using staff from outside cycling, and we continually look for the best ways to work and to support our riders."

    The former Team Sky member Michael Barry was one of 11 riders who gave evidence against Armstrong to the United States Anti-Doping Agency.

    The 26-year-old American was at the US Postal Service team from 2002 to 2006. Since 2010 he rode for Team Sky before announcing his retirement this year but Team Sky's spokesman continued: "We have had no doubts about Michael being clean during his time at Team Sky. We are a clean team and we have shown that you can win clean.

    "Michael has retired after 14 years as a professional cyclist. His final race was last month and he is no longer with Team Sky.

    "Though we are saddened by the revelations about Michael's early career, he is doing the right thing by admitting to his past and helping the sport to a clean future."

    26 Year old American? :fp
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #384 on: October 15, 2012, 00:51 »
    that is such a nothing statement.

    so they looked into and checked Gert Leinders before they employed him?   and knowing what they knew ... employed him anyway?
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #385 on: October 15, 2012, 02:28 »
    What can they say apart from that they cocked up monumentally?

    Are we or can we even try to expect credibility from this? I certainly don't see any from Sky for a while, or for that matter most teams.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #386 on: October 15, 2012, 11:04 »
    What can they say apart from that they cocked up monumentally?

    Are we or can we even try to expect credibility from this? I certainly don't see any from Sky for a while, or for that matter most teams.
    Actually it is more that subsequent events caught them out.

    The time line is...

    2009 - Leinders leaves Rabobank

    2010 Vuelta - Soigneur dies and rest of team suffering in the heat and generally unhappy with medical care. Leinders signed 'in extremis', so thorough checking very unlikely to have happened. The most likely reasons for hiring him are: 1) He was available, 2) He had a lot of experience at the highest level, 3) He, presumably like all Dutch I've ever met, spoke excellent English, 4) Personal testimony from riders who had worked with him at Rabobank.

    2012 Giro - The story comes out that Rabobank management knew about and sanctioned doping while Leinders was employed by them.

    2012 post season USADA affidavits appear to show that some Rabobank medical staff had been active in managing doping programmes.


    Personally, I can't believe that if you have a cunning plan to achieve world domination, you employ the pivotal figure during the Vuelta when it just so happens that your team's demanding a change of medical staff.

    Unless anyone can demonstrate that negotiation took place outside the time frame of the Vuelta, his employment was a reaction to circumstance and not pre-planned. If it's not pre-planned, then it's harder to argue that he was brought in in order to run some USPostal type team doping policy.

    So what should Sky have done?

    a) Not replaced the team doctor? presumably, they didn't take this decision without a pressing need to. Although they probably wish they hadn't.

    b) Got rid of Leinders the moment they actually did some checking on his past, assuming they ever did.

    c) Got rid of Leinders the moment the Rabobank story broke.

    For b&c it is an issue of public reputational damage against cycling reputational damage. With Barry, Possoni and now Leinders, Sky have shown a tendency not to make a big show of sacking somebody but to ease them out of the picture until they can find somewhere else or retire. This will make Sky seen as 'good' employers and make their targets more likely to work for them. In the Leinders case I wouldn't be surprised if the real reason for releasing him was that Leinders' reputational damage through his association with Sky was becoming a big problem for Leinders' future employment prospects.
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  • « Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 11:16 by Capt_Cavman »

    cj2002

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #387 on: October 15, 2012, 11:36 »
    Given the lengths LA went to in covering up/playing down his relationship with Ferrari, I can't believe Brailsford would be naive/stupid enough to hire someone to conduct a similar scheme, let alone doing it in such a public way.

    I think you've got it spot of Capt - Leinders' appointment was a response to circumstance. He wasn't full time, either, if you believe the official line.

    All that said, it would definitely be good to hear something more concrete from the team.
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #388 on: October 15, 2012, 12:19 »
    Given the lengths LA went to in covering up/playing down his relationship with Ferrari, I can't believe Brailsford would be naive/stupid enough to hire someone to conduct a similar scheme, let alone doing it in such a public way.

    I think you've got it spot of Capt - Leinders' appointment was a response to circumstance. He wasn't full time, either, if you believe the official line.

    All that said, it would definitely be good to hear something more concrete from the team.

    I think that is too far fetched to believe that Leinders was hired for dangerous viruses! Please you dont need to go to a doping Doc for that.

    Plenty of experts out there who would be available 80 days a year for the money Sky can afford!

    That Brailsford is treating everyone as stupid with his shock and suprise about what USADA releaed is crap!

    Keep hoping and praying the Sky are clean, but it is a myth. Every time someone from Sky opens their mouth the words that come out sound exactly like what was being said in 1999.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #389 on: October 15, 2012, 12:40 »
    I think that is too far fetched to believe that Leinders was hired for dangerous viruses! Please you dont need to go to a doping Doc for that.
    Complete strawman. Must try harder.
    Plenty of experts out there who would be available 80 days a year for the money Sky can afford!
    You've ignored all the points made.
    That Brailsford is treating everyone as stupid with his shock and suprise about what USADA releaed is crap!
    Totally agree, not sure what it proves.
    Keep hoping and praying the Sky are clean, but it is a myth. Every time someone from Sky opens their mouth the words that come out sound exactly like what was being said in 1999.
    Keep hoping and praying that Sky aren't clean. Every time you open your mouth you sound ever more desperate.
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