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just some guy

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Re: Sky
« Reply #390 on: October 15, 2012, 12:52 »
Guys one of things we want here is a discussion of the issue not, a attack on the poster type of thing

ie hate the game not the player  ;)

so I though a  reminder might be in order
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    mc_mountain

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #391 on: October 15, 2012, 13:13 »
    watching the 4 corners programme that JSG and Zam posted, very interesting to see the parallel between Lance's breakdown (in the SCA testimony) of what he would lose as well as money ie the faith of cancer survivors if he was doping/caught doping and the Wiggins blog.

    For me it reinforces more that ever, just saying you're clean (and reasons why you wouldnt dope) isnt enough.
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    L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #392 on: October 15, 2012, 13:14 »
    I don't know about Sky and I'm fine with that.  8)  ;D

    What I find interesting is that I feel like Sky has a bit of a dilemma that it's trying to work through at the moment.

    I feel like, as Sky matures as a team, it would now increasingly like to say less, to be somewhat less gapingly open to the media, to avoid being asked for comment every time somebody else's crap explodes.

    It wanted to be oh-so different but it didn't appreciate how that would become a heavy burden when it had to get on with its peers, when it did deliver that Tour title and when trouble rode into town.

    Sky would probably now like to be a bit more like taciturn OPQS, or tactful Liquigas, or timorous Argos. But it's really tough: the pattern of loquacity has been established. Failure to comment sounds like subterfuge. Improvised comment sounds like bungling.

    And I think it's all fascinating.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #393 on: October 15, 2012, 13:57 »
    Actually it is more that subsequent events caught them out.
    What I am saying is, no team will come out well from this. Lampre are in the deep sh*t too for example.

    It'd still have been better if they'd avoided a Leinders or better Yates.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #394 on: October 15, 2012, 15:55 »
    What I am saying is, no team will come out well from this. Lampre are in the deep sh*t too for example.

    It'd still have been better if they'd avoided a Leinders or better Yates.
    I think I got distracted from following up what I meant about that bit...

    The Leinders thing blew up in Sky's face because of what happened at Rabobank. It wasn't anything that Sky had control over at that point in time. If he had been a Quickstep/Movistar/EE doctor, the issue would have stayed under the radar. Why are people talking about Leinders and not Fabio Bartalucci?
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #395 on: October 15, 2012, 16:01 »
    Actually, I was going to post his name too but the fingers missed out.

    When exactly was he appointed?
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #396 on: October 15, 2012, 21:42 »
    For a team that believes in marginal gains by working on every single little detail no matter how small or insignificant it may be, that they would hire a doctor and not check his past and whether he was connected to Rasmussen and Dekker to name 2 Rabobank dopers is not believable.

    If this is believable then there mantra of marginal gains isn't, so that they get better performance on marginal gains is out the window, which leaves doping.

    I am sorry, but i see Sky and then Ullrichs quote of putting 2 and 2 together springs to mind
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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #397 on: October 15, 2012, 21:53 »
    Complete strawman. Must try harder. You've ignored all the points made. Totally agree, not sure what it proves.Keep hoping and praying that Sky aren't clean. Every time you open your mouth you sound ever more desperate.

    I ignored all the points you made because they are replica Sky PR points and therefore not to be believed.

    That Brailsford has spent the last week lying through his teeth has rubber stamped their doping for me.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #398 on: October 15, 2012, 22:02 »
    I ignored all the points you made because they are replica Sky PR points and therefore not to be believed.

    That Brailsford has spent the last week lying through his teeth has rubber stamped their doping for me.

    Why are Sky PR points not be believed?
    They may not be fully trusted, but to totally disregard them seems to me a bit extreme.

    And to say that Brailsford has been lying through his teeth is certainly an exaggeration.

    Also there is a big difference between looking into a member of staff's background and focusing on aerodynamics and such.
    They decided to focus totally on one aspect of the team and the performance of their riding, that does not mean that every other aspect has the same thoroughness. 
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    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #399 on: October 15, 2012, 22:02 »

    If this is believable then there mantra of marginal gains isn't, so that they get better performance on marginal gains is out the window, which leaves doping.

    So if it is believable then the mantra of marginal gains is also?



     ;)
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #400 on: October 15, 2012, 22:17 »
    For a team that believes in marginal gains by working on every single little detail no matter how small or insignificant it may be, that they would hire a doctor and not check his past and whether he was connected to Rasmussen and Dekker to name 2 Rabobank dopers is not believable.

    If this is believable then there mantra of marginal gains isn't, so that they get better performance on marginal gains is out the window, which leaves doping.

    I am sorry, but i see Sky and then Ullrichs quote of putting 2 and 2 together springs to mind
    How would you check his past?

    Can you name an doctor with lots of experience of working for a top team who has not been involved in any doping scandals ever?

    Thing about Ullrich's comment was that you could clearly see the 2s he was asking you to add together. Your 2s aren't even close to 2, they're teeny tiny fractions.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #401 on: October 15, 2012, 22:21 »
    I ignored all the points you made because they are replica Sky PR points and therefore not to be believed.

    That Brailsford has spent the last week lying through his teeth has rubber stamped their doping for me.
    But you're not even offering any plausible sequence of events. You're just repeating that you believe Sky are doping so they must be lying about everything which just goes to prove they're doping. Hardly the stuff of great debate.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #402 on: October 15, 2012, 23:14 »
    Why are Sky PR points not be believed?


    One surprising article i read in the telegraph asked why bailsford claims to be totally taken back by the Lance doping revelations whereas wiggins claims to have known that there may have been problems.

    Harmonn also laughed at Bailsford claiming that he was shocked by these revelations, "as if you didnt know".

    I also recall that you wrote  that training in cycling was doping based until Kerrison came along. Thats why Kerrison works, because  cycling was so rife with doping that no one bothered looking at other ways to improve, or so you wrote.
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #403 on: October 16, 2012, 01:28 »
    While I can see what you are trying to argue Froome and Cavman, I have to say I dont really agree with you.

    As far as appointing Leinders - seriously, he was not the ONLY option they had. To imply that they were desperate and he was the only choice available in the world is simply ludicrous.  To suggest that it was in relation to a soigner dying of a mysterious virus is even more so.

    So during/after the Vuelta they found themselves short on doctors with actual experience in this area, so they decided to appoint someone is fairly reasonable.  No issues there.

    To say that they didnt really have the time to check references and history properly - for a team so very meticulous about everything, to suggest that they would employ someone to oversee the medical requirements of the team that they didnt know that much about  -  no.

    The PR spin that they are applying is just twaddle as far as I am concerned.

    As far as any actual issue with the guy - I still swing a bit either way with Sky.  I would like to beleive that Wiggins is clean (and some days I do), but heart says clean and brain says not.  Froome, Porte, Rogers etc .... I have some more doubts about some of them.   

    In any case, if they did have a program (or at least knowledge of individuals using PED's), it commenced well before Leinders was appointed ... so he certainly hasnt instigated it.    However, if they did have a program and decided they needed more experience in managing it - well, that is where my doubts are kind of raised.

    and when you add that to
    - fantastic unexpected success this year (yes Wiggo was expected to do well at the Tour, but the team was not expected to dominate in such a fashion)
    - great results from Froome
    - Yates / Barry / Rogers
    - the budget available
    - the whole 'we are the clean team' etc

    it does leave substantial questions in my mind.  Questions that Brailsford and Wiggins PR 'genius' are certainly not doing anything to allay.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #404 on: October 16, 2012, 01:34 »
    and as far as no questions being raised about other teams - why is this just about Sky?

    well, for me ... I have doubts about Sky.  Other teams not so much.
     
    Saxo - Contador and his helpers
    OPQS - Dr Iby .... enough said
    BMC - Phonack/Telekom/Andy Riis/Jim Ock .... though  I would really love to beleive in Cadel and Phil, so I excuse my belief in simple blind fan-girl-ism  ;D
    Katusha, Astana, etc - do I need to say?
    RSNT ..

    Greenedge are under the pump as much as Sky these days. 

    The questions are being ask about all the teams.  Just seems to be more Sky atm because of their success, and because people DO have doubts rather than just a foregone conclusion of it happening.

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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #405 on: October 16, 2012, 07:59 »
    One surprising article i read in the telegraph asked why bailsford claims to be totally taken back by the Lance doping revelations whereas wiggins claims to have known that there may have been problems.

    Harmonn also laughed at Bailsford claiming that he was shocked by these revelations, "as if you didnt know".
    All true, but I believe you are interpreting that reaction a bit too extremely if you consider it to be making void any subsequent comments.
    Brailsford's comments could have been made with any one of a number of motives behind. Surely you can not take that as definitive proof that Sky are doping and therefore he is lying.

    Quote
    I also recall that you wrote  that training in cycling was doping based until Kerrison came along. Thats why Kerrison works, because  cycling was so rife with doping that no one bothered looking at other ways to improve, or so you wrote.

    I do not believe that was the motive behind Sky recruiting Kerrison specifically.
    That was more something highlighted by Kerrison's success, it was something Kerrison himself commented on.. a year after he had joined Sky.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #406 on: October 16, 2012, 08:13 »

    - fantastic unexpected success this year (yes Wiggo was expected to do well at the Tour, but the team was not expected to dominate in such a fashion)
    - great results from Froome
    - Yates / Barry / Rogers
    - the budget available
    - the whole 'we are the clean team' etc

    it does leave substantial questions in my mind.  Questions that Brailsford and Wiggins PR 'genius' are certainly not doing anything to allay.

    To be honest I think even many of the harshest critics here would find it hard to accuse Sky of a whole team doping scheme.
    To say that the Tour team was doping in the season is a more reasonable statement. But I don't think you can attribute Sky's all round success this season down to doping.

    Froome is someone I think people don't really get, he has always been a very talented rider, and it is obvious he has talent which can lead to results, otherwise he would be another Hounard...
    Doping only takes a rider so far.

    The riders who were involved with Lance and previous doping offences.. as many others have said, I dont think that shows anything. You would be hard pressed to find many teams who do not employ such staff, and in fact it could be seen as a positive that they do not have a team manager who was previously linked to doping on the road, rare for WT teams..
    That Sky have displace people's trust in them by hiring such individuals, well I think we can all see that the doping statements were a PR stunt. One that has backfired and has been disappointing to witness, but nevertheless you can't read to much into the team through them.

    Once again the "we are the clean team" is an approach which was a PR stunt, but personally I dont think it proves anything. A clean team would like to prove it is clean, a doping team would also like to prove they are clean..

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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #407 on: October 16, 2012, 08:25 »
    To be honest I think even many of the harshest critics here would find it hard to accuse Sky of a whole team doping scheme.
    To say that the Tour team was doping in the season is a more reasonable statement. But I don't think you can attribute Sky's all round success this season down to doping.

    ...

    Once again the "we are the clean team" is an approach which was a PR stunt, but personally I dont think it proves anything. A clean team would like to prove it is clean, a doping team would also like to prove they are clean..

    I agree they more than likely dont have a team sponsored all-inclusive doping scheme.  Its very unlikely.

    What I am saying is that it is possible that they have a number of riders of whom they dont ask too many questions, or that they know are using banned substances or methods.  And that the team doctors possibly enable that to be done carefully, safely and with less risk of getting caught.

    I am not saying its ALL of the team - or any of them in fact - as I said, I am still somewhat undecided so not making any accusations ... just asking questions, but its certainly possible.

    As far as the PR stuff - absolutely agreed.  Its simply a PR stunt gone badly wrong.  They are no better or worse than any other team, just getting bad PR right now due to their own ineptness  ;D
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #408 on: October 16, 2012, 09:13 »
    Someone should send  this link to DB when he wants to hire someone to check their past


    http://www.google.com/

    Leinders is gone

    Barry retired

    we have questions over
    Yates
    bobby julich
    Rogers
    Fabio Bartalucci

    who all have pasts or named in the usada files




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  • lancasterke

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #409 on: October 16, 2012, 09:17 »
    i'd really like sky to be clean. that is all that matters. they don't need to win, or even be competitive, just clean.

    i'm finding it increasingly hard to believe that they are clean because what they set out as "zero tolerance" is now a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. these are worlds apart.

    the idea that it takes a lot of investigation to ascertain that a dr who worked with dekker and chicken might be dodgy and is worth looking into is obviously wrong. a glance at his cv would have told most people with an interest in cycling that there were question marks. at the very least, leinders was hired (in a hurry) as someone who might have a bad past. sky obviously weren't bothered by that, they were bothered when his past was in the press.

    yates is dirty, it's not credible that sky don't think he ever doped as a rider.

    bobby julich and mick rogers have at some point doped.

    michael barry doped. sky new this or at least suspected it. there have been question marks over everyone who rode at usps/disco.

    if they're clean and want to demonstrate it. then be open with people. don't talk about being astonished Lance et al were doping.

    admitting that people in cycling often have a bad past but some (barry, julich, yates, leinders....) have seen the light is much more healthy and believable.

    i find it much easier to believe garmin are clean (despite very significant numbers of them being past dopers) because they are generally open and acknowledge that yes, lots of people dope and yes it's a big problem for the sport.
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #410 on: October 16, 2012, 09:41 »
    I want to quickly make a number of points, but I don't want to pepper this post with quote code. So, apologies for not addressing you personally.

    Here goes:

    • Sky's domination at the Tour this year was, in part at least, due to lack of competition. Let's not pretend they haven't put those sort of performances in before, it was just contrasted against unusually weak opposition
    • In light of 1., we should be asking questions of all the teams, and all the teams should be answering them. That seems to me to be the least they can do to reassure a legion of fans who are hurting from the impact that all this is having. I agree that Garmin are more believable because they are open about their past; OPQS - as I understand it - take a very strict anti-doping line. But they keep quiet about it, and put in consistent (clean) performances, and no-one makes questions. Sky came in and talked loudly, and now they're paying the price. It doesn't mean they're doping though.
    • Marginal gains isn't a new thing... it has arguably been a part of British Cycling philosophy since Chris Boardman in the 1990s. Pre-Armstrong, in fact.
    • As has been said a number of times in a number of threads - it is near impossible to find anybody with any experience in the pro-peloton, either as a rider, DS or other support staff, who hasn't got some connection to doping. We could play Six Degrees of Michele Ferrari and wipe out half the peloton and their teams. Past behaviour - in a different context and under different rules - is no guarantee of current conduct. For sure, it raises questions, especially when teams like Sky have been so openly anti-anyone-connected-with-doping. But it doesn't really tell us anything.
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #411 on: October 16, 2012, 09:50 »
    ah CJ ....  ;D

    you really honestly think OPQS is clean?  or that they take a strict line on doping?

    honestly?

    I agree with you about the lack of competition in this years Tour.  But still ... I dont think that accounts for the team domination - only Wiggins' surprising ease of win.  We did expect Wiggo to do well ...

    but if you had been told of Sky's team before last years Vuelta, would you have expected the result that we got?  Would you have expected Froome, Rogers, Porte, EBH to carry the front of the Tour  for 2 entire weeks that Wiggo was in yellow? 

    I dont know.  Maybe I am just ultra cynical after everything thats happened.   :fp


    PS - my  ;D is genuine amusement, not meant to be snarky or sarcastic.  Just after the discussion earlier in the year about Boonen and OPQS domination and the famous Dr Ibarg .xxx (cant remember his name) ... I do find it amusing to consider OPQS being known as the clean team
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #412 on: October 16, 2012, 10:02 »
    Once again, I don't know if Sky is clean or not. What I reckon happened (and of course, I have no proof, this is my opinion):

    a) The hiring of Leinders was a "bottom up" decision from riders and/or DSs.

    b) Management didn't bother to check out Leinders.

    c) Sky trumpeted a good policy but didn't apply it consistently.

    I have worked for a number of organisations that put out as big, proud, principled and polished. Top 10 global law firms, a renowned advertising agency, multi-national government bodies. They like to have the public believe what micro-managing, super-efficient operations they run when in fact they are frequently sloppy and it's just that nothing happened yet to expose that.

    I think Sky's blah about marginal gains and taking care of the little details and fancy chefs and whatnot is all very nice but, beneath all the gloss, they screwed up. That's all it is, for me. They hired a dodgy doctor and they failed to apply their trumpeted policy and they did not live up to their own professed standard of perfection. And now people are slaying them for it. Doesn't really prove anything else yet though.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #413 on: October 16, 2012, 10:07 »
    not 1 Dr 2

    plus a DS

    plus 1,2,3 riders

    although they could have gone the Astana or Katusha way

    we do not give a flip we hire you ride to win.

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  • Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #414 on: October 16, 2012, 10:29 »
    At some point someone is going to have to win the Tour clean.

    Could it have been Evans? could it have been Wiggins?

    I would like to think both, but is that based on an English speaking bias?
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  • The fens are just West West Flanders really...

    just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #415 on: October 16, 2012, 10:31 »
    Festinagirl going hard on sky again via twitter

    posted this re yates

    http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/2/23/2010343/LeMaillotJauneBlanchi

    Quote
    The news of this broke during the 1990 Giro d'Italia. The peloton threw a wobbly. They staged a strike and the start of the sixth stage was delayed. A delegation of directeurs sportifs, lead by Roger Legeay and Cyrille Guimard, confronted Hein Verbruggen, then VP of the UCI (he would take his seat at the top of the table later in the year, after the death of Luis Puig). Verbruggen, ever the diplomat, promised the UCI would look into the matter. In August, come the UCI's annual shindig at the Worlds. Legeay and co were having none of that - what was the point of handing out a suspension that wouldn't start until the Autumn?

    Verbruggen tried to smooth talk them, asking that Theunisse be given the benefit of the doubt: "In the Tour of Belgium last year [1989] Sean Yates, positive with anabolic steroids, was given the benefit of the doubt. And Delgado in the Tour of '88 received the support of a minister. Why not Theunisse?"
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  • Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #416 on: October 16, 2012, 10:34 »
    I grew up watching Sean Yates in his Fagor kit and Oakley Razors drilling it on the front of the peloton and winning Tour time trials.

    As time has gone on I have become more and more embattled to the point I now understand that he is very likely to have doped.

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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #417 on: October 16, 2012, 10:37 »
    To be honest I think even many of the harshest critics here would find it hard to accuse Sky of a whole team doping scheme.
    To say that the Tour team was doping in the season is a more reasonable statement. But I don't think you can attribute Sky's all round success this season down to doping.

    Froome is someone I think people don't really get, he has always been a very talented rider, and it is obvious he has talent which can lead to results, otherwise he would be another Hounard...
    Doping only takes a rider so far.

    The riders who were involved with Lance and previous doping offences.. as many others have said, I dont think that shows anything. You would be hard pressed to find many teams who do not employ such staff, and in fact it could be seen as a positive that they do not have a team manager who was previously linked to doping on the road, rare for WT teams..
    That Sky have displace people's trust in them by hiring such individuals, well I think we can all see that the doping statements were a PR stunt. One that has backfired and has been disappointing to witness, but nevertheless you can't read to much into the team through them.

    Once again the "we are the clean team" is an approach which was a PR stunt, but personally I dont think it proves anything. A clean team would like to prove it is clean, a doping team would also like to prove they are clean..

    If you adhere to marginal gains, you dont hire doping doctors for virus control of riders health! If you dont adhere to marginal gains then it is a front for something darker coupled with hiring a doping doctor!

    The idea that Sky didn't know Leinders history is a complete joke as big a joke as Brailsford fake surprise and shock ! It is not like there were outbreaks of viruses throughout the Peloton and it was an emergency!

    To the above in bold, if it was just a PR stunt, then they dope or some of them dope!

    That Brailsford did not come out saying how happy he was that those offenders of the past were brought to book for their actions and it was a long time coming and how glad he is to see how well a job USADA did where others failed etc etc, no he didn't then the stupid disbelieving 'surprise and shock' that no one believes. What an idiot!

    Most teams dont put out 'pr stunts' stating their cleanliness and transparency. Garmin and Sky are the 2 most vocal and now have been shown to have some of the biggest dopers on their team. Now these are for past discrepancies but it doesn't look clean for the future if we take the simplistic view that a leopard cannot change his spots. I dont take that view. Brailsford has talked the talk for the last 3/4 years but it appears he didn't walk the walk!

     The others are not clean, that has long been obvious, imo, to people who know the true nature of the sport.

    I read Cannondale Liquigas statement for next year, 2013. Not a word about being anti doping, riding clean etc.
    http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.ie/2012/09/liquigas-cannondale-becomes-cannondale.html

    Why do Sky and Garmin get it in the neck so much and other teams dont? Becuase these other teams dont pretend to be something they are not!
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #418 on: October 16, 2012, 10:41 »
    If you adhere to marginal gains, you dont hire doping doctors for virus control of riders health! If you dont adhere to marginal gains then it is a front for something darker coupled with hiring a doping doctor!

    The idea that Sky didn't know Leinders history is a complete joke as big a joke as Brailsford fake surprise and shock ! It is not like there were outbreaks of viruses throughout the Peloton and it was an emergency!

    To the above in bold, if it was just a PR stunt, then they dope or some of them dope!

    That Brailsford did not come out saying how happy he was that those offenders of the past were brought to book for their actions and it was a long time coming and how glad he is to see how well a job USADA did where others failed etc etc, no he didn't then the stupid disbelieving 'surprise and shock' that no one believes. What an idiot!

    Most teams dont put out 'pr stunts' stating their cleanliness and transparency. Garmin and Sky are the 2 most vocal and now have been shown to have some of the biggest dopers on their team. Now these are for past discrepancies but it doesn't look clean for the future if we take the simplistic view that a leopard cannot change his spots. I dont take that view. Brailsford has talked the talk for the last 3/4 years but it appears he didn't walk the walk!

     The others are not clean, that has long been obvious, imo, to people who know the true nature of the sport.

    I read Cannondale Liquigas statement for next year, 2013. Not a word about being anti doping, riding clean etc.
    http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.ie/2012/09/liquigas-cannondale-becomes-cannondale.html

    Why do Sky and Garmin get it in the neck so much and other teams dont? Becuase these other teams dont pretend to be something they are not!

    Which when you think about it is just stupid really, but it is the reason.

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #419 on: October 16, 2012, 11:06 »
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