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L'arri

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Re: Sky
« Reply #420 on: October 16, 2012, 13:16 »
Festinagirl going hard on sky again via twitter

posted this re yates

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/2/23/2010343/LeMaillotJauneBlanchi

The "Yates positive that wasn't" is an old but not well documented story which needs explanation for those who don't know.

He won the 1989 edition of the now-defunct Torhout-Werchter Classic during a real purple patch in his career. He tested positive on his first sample but others turned out negative. There were also concerns that the testing procedures had not been properly followed.

The Belgian cycling authority vacillated and the British Cycling Federation (as it was then known) backed Yates. After a while the Belgian authority decided not to pursue the matter and Yates was confirmed as the winner.

The punishment Yates would have faced was relatively minor in comparison with today's penalties. He would have been stripped of the title and his subsequent Tour of Belgium wins (two stages and the GC) but it seems unlikely that he would have spent any significant time off the bike. In the 1980s, testosterone positives in a GT were typically punishable with a mere fine and 10 minutes on GC.

What's new for me is that, thanks to Cillian of Irish Peloton, I only found out this week that the substance in question with Yates was testosterone.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #421 on: October 16, 2012, 13:21 »
    Once again, I don't know if Sky is clean or not. What I reckon happened (and of course, I have no proof, this is my opinion):

    a) The hiring of Leinders was a "bottom up" decision from riders and/or DSs.


    Whats confusing me, is everyone is going batsh*t over Leinders, but everyone has completely forgotten about Jose Ibarguren Taus who has been associated with countless dirty teams, been arrested and all sorts.

    Maybe its because everyone hates Wiggins but loves Boonen :?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #422 on: October 16, 2012, 13:39 »
    Whats confusing me, is everyone is going batsh*t over Leinders, but everyone has completely forgotten about Jose Ibarguren Taus who has been associated with countless dirty teams, been arrested and all sorts.

    Maybe its because everyone hates Wiggins but loves Boonen :?

    :snip

    Why do Sky and Garmin get it in the neck so much and other teams dont? Becuase these other teams dont pretend to be something they are not!

    thats why  and it is a stupid reason but that is why I think

    plus people want a new team to bring down now Armstrong and Postal have fallen

    imo ofc
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #423 on: October 16, 2012, 13:54 »
    Whats confusing me, is everyone is going batsh*t over Leinders, but everyone has completely forgotten about Jose Ibarguren Taus who has been associated with countless dirty teams, been arrested and all sorts.

    Maybe its because everyone hates Wiggins but loves Boonen :?

    ah CJ ....  ;D

    you really honestly think OPQS is clean?  or that they take a strict line on doping?

    :snip

    PS - my  ;D is genuine amusement, not meant to be snarky or sarcastic.  Just after the discussion earlier in the year about Boonen and OPQS domination and the famous Dr Ibarg .xxx (cant remember his name) ... I do find it amusing to consider OPQS being known as the clean team

    as I posted this earlier today, I am pretty sure that people do remember ....

    just that OPQS dont make such a big deal out of being clean.  With Sky people debate and question if they are clean or arent - with OPQS there isnt any doubt.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #424 on: October 16, 2012, 13:58 »
    I think it is worth revisiting what Brailsford is reported to have said...

    Quote
    Brailsford says that the team employed him following widespread illnesses in the team in the 2010 Vuelta, plus the death from a virus of one of the soigneurs, Txema Gonzalez. “We had all these sick riders going: ‘What is going on? This isn’t good enough.’ And you think: ‘We’re putting these guys at risk here.’ We sat down afterwards and we said: ‘We do not know enough about looking after people in extreme heat and extreme fatigue.’”

    He is NOT saying he needed a Dr to combat disease. He IS saying that he needed a Dr to combat managing riders' performance in extreme heat when debilitated by illness. He is also saying that it was the riders dissatisfaction which initiated the change.

    Also note that this Sky team was about as B team as a Sky team could possibly get.

    Lars-Petter Nordhaug
    Juan Antonio Flecha
    Kjell Carlström
    John-Lee Augustyn
    Ben Swift
    Ian Stannard
    Thomas Löfkvist
    Peter Kennaugh
    Simon Gerrans

    GC rider Lofkvist couldn't even keep up with rest in the the TTT. Theories about this being a test bed for doping performance just don't ring true given that line up.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #425 on: October 16, 2012, 14:02 »
    I think it is worth revisiting what Brailsford is reported to have said...

    He is NOT saying he needed a Dr to combat disease. He IS saying that he needed a Dr to combat managing riders' performance in extreme heat when debilitated by illness. He is also saying that it was the riders dissatisfaction which initiated the change.

    Also note that this Sky team was about as B team as a Sky team could possibly get.

    Lars-Petter Nordhaug
    Juan Antonio Flecha
    Kjell Carlström
    John-Lee Augustyn
    Ben Swift
    Ian Stannard
    Thomas Löfkvist
    Peter Kennaugh
    Simon Gerrans

    GC rider Lofkvist couldn't even keep up with rest in the the TTT. Theories about this being a test bed for doping performance just don't ring true given that line up.

    Capt I do not think that is the issue

    it is the way it is being handled from the beginning to the end

    we will not hire people with a doping past


    to 2 Drs with really easy to find pasts being used, plus Yates

    as for the heat thing I call BS I think they just got lazy and dumb.

    How hard would it be to wonder over to rabo and as in private ?
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #426 on: October 16, 2012, 15:48 »
    Whats confusing me, is everyone is going batsh*t over Leinders, but everyone has completely forgotten about Jose Ibarguren Taus who has been associated with countless dirty teams, been arrested and all sorts.

    Maybe its because everyone hates Wiggins but loves Boonen :?

    Or, given the way you pursued Ibaguren, surely you can understand people who raise concern at another doping doctor?
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #427 on: October 16, 2012, 18:49 »
    Talking of the devil..

    Just to state that personally I believe that OPQS are not doping as a team.
    Also would be immensely hypocritical if they released Levi for previous doping whilst doping themselves and Levi himself may in fact decide enough is enough and spill the beans. At this point in his career that is not all that hard a decision to make when you are so infuriated. Logically therefore I would say that they are not doping.

    Though certainly it seems like OPQS will be thrust into sharing the limelight with Sky due to their rather extreme actions, especially due to the fact they have as mentioned above a doctor who has links and other links as well within their system.

    And of course like Sky they had tremendous success this season as well.

    Foolish move by OPQS therefore, imho.

    And whilst Garmin remained unmoved throughout it all, JV is firm and clear on his stance. Not to extreme like Sky that they seem to be reneging on their statements, even contrary to what some in the clinic say about him and his recruitment of the US postal riders in the first place.

    Edit: sorry about going of topic  :-[
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    benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #428 on: October 16, 2012, 21:10 »
    as I posted this earlier today, I am pretty sure that people do remember ....

    just that OPQS dont make such a big deal out of being clean.  With Sky people debate and question if they are clean or arent - with OPQS there isnt any doubt.

    In my mind there is no doubt.

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #429 on: October 16, 2012, 21:12 »
    Whats confusing me, is everyone is going batsh*t over Leinders, but everyone has completely forgotten about Jose Ibarguren Taus who has been associated with countless dirty teams, been arrested and all sorts.

    Maybe its because everyone hates Wiggins but loves Boonen :?

    Who has forgotten about Ibarguren? 
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #430 on: October 16, 2012, 21:12 »
    Talking of the devil..

    Just to state that personally I believe that OPQS are not doping as a team.
    Also would be immensely hypocritical if they released Levi for previous doping whilst doping themselves and Levi himself may in fact decide enough is enough and spill the beans. At this point in his career that is not all that hard a decision to make when you are so infuriated. Logically therefore I would say that they are not doping.

    Though certainly it seems like OPQS will be thrust into sharing the limelight with Sky due to their rather extreme actions, especially due to the fact they have as mentioned above a doctor who has links and other links as well within their system.

    And of course like Sky they had tremendous success this season as well.

    Foolish move by OPQS therefore, imho.

    And whilst Garmin remained unmoved throughout it all, JV is firm and clear on his stance. Not to extreme like Sky that they seem to be reneging on their statements, even contrary to what some in the clinic say about him and his recruitment of the US postal riders in the first place.

    Edit: sorry about going of topic  :-[

    Maybe and it is only a guess that OPQS made a deal with Levi. 'Fired' him but paid him his last year plus bonus to make them look good. Cynical but Lefevre is a fliper.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #431 on: October 16, 2012, 21:14 »
    At some point someone is going to have to win the Tour clean.

    Could it have been Evans? could it have been Wiggins?

    I would like to think both, but is that based on an English speaking bias?

    Why not Sastre?
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  • killswitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #432 on: October 16, 2012, 21:23 »
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    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #433 on: October 17, 2012, 21:50 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sky-asks-riders-and-staff-to-sign-anti-doping-declaration

    Quote
    Team Sky has reaffirmed its anti-doping policy by asking their staff and riders to sign a declaration confirming that they have no past or present involvement in doping. Anyone who does not sign the declaration will leave the team, as will anyone who does sign but is subsequently found to be in breach of the policy. The team will also terminate contracts if individuals admit to any doping in their pasts.

    Imo this could be make or break for Sky in terms of PR and how they come across in the fight against doping.

    If they uphold this and do not continue their worrisome trend of breaking with their original supposed adherence to nothing which would even bring a doubt about the team doping, then they can make amends in a way by once again being capable of claiming that they are foremost in the fight against clean doping.

    This is not about the riders and staff admitting to doping. Omerta still holds firm as we saw so very well last night. Rather this is about Sky upholding them and ensuring that no one in the team can get away with links to doping at all. This means that if Yates, Julich and Rogers amonst others are found to be doping than they will be released . Even more than this it also means that these people will be forced into stating one way or the other that they are clean or not clean. This means that there is no more sitting on the fence and though it is by no means breaking of omerta and most likely many will lie, it still forces these people into committing themselves, rather than merely attempting to look on and escape under the radar.

    And if Sky do not uphold to the message they are sending out by doing this then I will be sorely disappointed. This means to be a last ditch attempt by Sky to salvage what previously has come across as double standards and for them to break them once more would certainly indicate that the fans trust in them is no warranted.

    Also consider this, if Sky are not doping then the message which it sends out to riders who may be who are looking to sign for them, is a sure no no as they would not want to take the risk of putting themselves into such a situation that they have to sign the contract when it may be easier on a team who are more lenient.

    And yes I believe that the stance of Sky's PR and hopefully soon to be their stance in reality, is in fact the ideal stance as cycling and any teams or organisations linked to cycling should not assist people who have doped, as it sends out the wrong message. To purge the sport the stance must be one of doping being totally intolerable. Even David Millar who I believe has totally repented, still ideally should not be competing as the message is one of doping being tolerated, and imo it can not be so.
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  • « Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 22:04 by froome19 »

    Havetts

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #434 on: October 17, 2012, 22:04 »
    Quote
    The team will also terminate contracts if individuals admit to any doping in their pasts.

    :fp :fp :fp

    So this reinforces the Omerta more than even trying to break it. The rest is okay, great actually. They do something; "be clean (note; not come clean) and you have a future with us"
    but doing this in this way, it promotes people not speaking the truth because they will lie.

    Idea is good, execution is .. :fp
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #436 on: October 17, 2012, 22:07 »
    Well I ask what other choice do they have but when taking this stance to terminate contracts. If you say you do not tolerate doping there is no other way around it, but to release the riders.
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  • Havetts

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #437 on: October 17, 2012, 22:10 »
    You know.. thats good; but it wont create anything thats going to help us get rid of 'the past', the future is in the future, sure. But skeletons in closets get claustrophobic once in a while ( i made that up myself, i feel proud ), so why not help people come clean first and then build on a way to secure a great future?
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  • Jamsque

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #438 on: October 17, 2012, 22:23 »
    So Mick Rodgers has to go then.

    This seems like a dumb move. Of course compel your riders not to dope but saying you'll sack them if they confess to past crimes just reinforces the code of silence.

    Sky cannot say this and keep Rodgers on the squad.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #439 on: October 17, 2012, 22:30 »
    I see what you are saying, but from their position as this being a PR move, that would be untenable in Sky's view. That would be going against their whole stance from their induction and the fact that they reversed would just be a cause for as much criticism most likely.

    And the question I would ask is  how much do we need to focus on the past. The past is a part of cycling, but we do not want to jeopardise the future of cycling by focusing overtly on the past. In this stance, there is no need to fully uncover everything of the past so long as cycling puts it whole effort into the future and preventing the past reoccurring then the future will be more likely to be clean. The priority here is the future, the past is a peripheral point which in an ideal world would be dealt with..

    Is a clear past worth a clean future?
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  • killswitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #440 on: October 17, 2012, 23:20 »
    :fp :fp :fp

    So this reinforces the Omerta more than even trying to break it. The rest is okay, great actually. They do something; "be clean (note; not come clean) and you have a future with us"
    but doing this in this way, it promotes people not speaking the truth because they will lie.

    Idea is good, execution is .. :fp
    Well said. (The managers of) the two most successful teams in 2012 Sky and OmertaPQS reinforce the omerta in the space of less than 24 hours. Hein & Pat could still survive the storm if Lance / Johan don't spill the beans  >:(  :fp.
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  • mc_mountain

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #441 on: October 18, 2012, 01:42 »
    Will Fotheringham piece in tomorrow's Guardian

    link

    Quote
    The likelihood is that some members of the team will leave, but Brailsford said he had no idea how many.

    Brailsford
    Quote
      If our performances go backwards, if they go back to square one, I can accept that.
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    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #442 on: October 18, 2012, 01:52 »
    Yep Iam with Havy here  -  good idea, very bad execution.

    I want to believe Sky, I really do.  They are just so poor at actually doing what they want to do.

    Cycling is standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon right now ... for the good of the sport, they need to take a step back from this and say "ok, its time for people to come forward and talk about what has happened and what has gone on.  If you are honest and truthful about the past, we will have counselling, you will face sanctions but if you come clean and are clean in the future you will still have a job".

    Sticking with the "dont ask, dont tell" is not actually going to help.  As much as its a great approach to say "we dont want that stuff in our team, so we wont have anything to do with anyone who has a past"  its just not realistic in today's cycling.

    I would respect them much more if they encouraged truth and honesty in relation to the past.
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  • ansimi

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #443 on: October 18, 2012, 01:54 »
    I predict this will get worse for Sky before it gets better. Part of their success has been that their riders and staff like working there. They are not going to enjoy this part.

    There are a lot of levels of doping and different eras and cultures that people come from. What if a staff member says his junior coach gave him needles in the 80s and he doesn't know what was in them. Are they going to fire the guy as part of zero tolerance? Or a rider says he went through a bad personal time and abused prescription drugs off-label to get through and keep riding.

    This approach doesn't work in the fight against recreational drugs and I don't see it working against performance-enhancing drugs either.

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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #444 on: October 18, 2012, 02:03 »
    It's too late for sackings, just keep people in their jobs and spare us the PR cowdung.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #445 on: October 18, 2012, 04:48 »
    Bobby and Sean good luck I hear the job market is hard at the moment

    but nice work there Sky - but they are only re enforcing what they said earlier, so it is hard on them saying they are keeping the omerta , but timing people timing
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #446 on: October 18, 2012, 06:52 »
    the UCI overlord wrote something interesting ....................





    Quote
    In fact, as an experiment I posted a dubious photo of Brad Wiggins, screengrabbed during an interview with Ned Boulting on July 21st, 2012. The interview took place after the punishing individual time trial, which Wiggins won by a country mile. We had an expert examine the photo, who stated it’s the median cubital vein that’s been tapped based on the position of the plaster.

    Why is the plaster there?

    The UCI passed a no needles policy in May of 2011 which stated the following (quote courtesy of cyclingnews.com article by Stephen Farrand):

    The UCI Regulations now prohibit injections that have the aim of artificially improving performance or helping recovery. It means riders can no longer inject vitamins, sugars, enzymes, amino acids or antioxidants to aid recovery. It is hoped the ban will contribute to the eradication of doping by greatly reducing the use of injections in cycling.

    Herein lies the problem. No one asked why Wiggins had a plaster, and the interesting fact is that Boulting, who conducted the interview, didn’t find the plaster on Wiggins arm as strange. According to sources within the Tour de France, there wasn’t any blood drawn for anti-doping purposes on that day. So why did Wiggins have a plaster on his arm? It couldn’t have been for medicinal purposes, as a Team Sky doctor supported and asserted the no needles policy as “fantastic” during an interview with Lionel Birnie that appeared in the August 2011 edition of Cyclesport Magazine.



    http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/groundhog-day-for-cycling/

    he then goes on to say does it mean Wiggo is doping no but questions were not asked

    a really good piece ...........................
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #447 on: October 18, 2012, 10:30 »
    So Mick Rodgers has to go then.

    This seems like a dumb move. Of course compel your riders not to dope but saying you'll sack them if they confess to past crimes just reinforces the code of silence.

    Sky cannot say this and keep Rodgers on the squad.

    Now why would Sky want to reinforce a code of silence and not take the approach that JV and Garmin pursue most of the time? ::)

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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #448 on: October 18, 2012, 11:26 »
    the UCI overlord wrote something interesting ....................







    http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/groundhog-day-for-cycling/

    he then goes on to say does it mean Wiggo is doping no but questions were not asked

    a really good piece ...........................

    Why would he be "doping" after he's already won the Tour?
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  • Jamsque

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #449 on: October 18, 2012, 11:30 »
    'No needles' doesn't ban teams from blood testing their own riders to monitor how they are recovering from racing.

    And as Arbiter said, this was after the ITT, basically after the tour was over. Not the time for a blood transfusion.
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