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benotti69

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Re: Sky
« Reply #600 on: March 10, 2013, 17:42 »
Amazing performance this week from Rogers for Contador  :rolleye
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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #601 on: March 10, 2013, 20:34 »
    Same thing happens to me on PCM when i go into editor and give all my riders an extra 5 points climbing
    Same thing also happens to me when I go into the database and check up what the potential of a certain young rider is. If it is above 6 I take him. Though my teams do tend to become a bit overly dominant after a couple of years.

    Quote
    Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters
    @daveno7 nah. Key is Sky buys guys to be workers that are outright talents. I can think of 8-9 they have that have higher earning than my #1

    I don't think anyone can argue that Porte has the talent to win Paris-Nice.
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  • RIP Keith

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #602 on: March 10, 2013, 20:38 »
    Quote
    @Vaughters Chris Froome: 38 min 22 sec, 22.75 Kph, VAM 1605 m/h, 5.93 W/kg.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #603 on: March 10, 2013, 21:07 »
    But on the flip side of that coin, when did Porte show that he had the talent to win it?
    2010, 2012 and 2013.

    Tony Martin won in 2011 with Porte not far behind in the TT, so you could make a case for 2011 too.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #604 on: March 10, 2013, 21:44 »
    2010 I guess is linked to the Giro? In that case why has Arroyo done nothing of note? If only Movistar hired a swimming coach.

    Also no 2011, down year for Richie or just peeed he wasn't getting paid and when Contador joined Saxo Bank, cos it would mean less race freedom for himself, yet has no problem waiting for his chance now at Sky, despite being closer to the age of decline than he was a couple of years ago.
    Arroyo? What has he got to do with Porte?

    What the Giro proved was that Porte had the potential to climb, seriously climb. He was always able to TT. There was also a tenth at Romandie. This for a guy in his first season in Europe.

    I don't know what went wrong at Saxo, from what's been said he was overweight. But all the same his TTing was top notch, 3rd at PN behnd Wiggins and Martin, 2nd at Roamndie ahead of Wiggins and Martin, 3rd in the Giro TT, 4th at the Tour, and a couple of minor TT wins. This stuff about him being a flop in 2011 isn't really true even if his climbing was disappointing.

    Age of decline? It's only his fourth year in Europe, he'll most likely peak in 3 or 4 years time.

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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #605 on: March 10, 2013, 21:47 »
    2010 I guess is linked to the Giro? In that case why has Arroyo done nothing of note? If only Movistar hired a swimming coach.
    Why Arroyo has not done anything is another something to consider. But generally going so well in your first GT like Porte did is a sign of much talent.

    Quote
    Also no 2011, down year for Richie or just peeed he wasn't getting paid and when Contador joined Saxo Bank, cos it would mean less race freedom for himself, yet has no problem waiting for his chance now at Sky, despite being closer to the age of decline than he was a couple of years ago.
    Flip, wrote a response but this excerpt sums it up much better:

    Quote
    Circumstances would dictate that Porte's primary task this season would be to ride in support of Alberto Contador, but not everything was going to plan. Porte had health issues with allergies and then it became a case of what he describes as "trying to re-invent the wheel" when it came to his riding approach.

    "All I had to do, really, was maybe improve in a few areas when instead we tried to improve on too much," Porte says in retrospect. "It just got a little bit too much. I got sick, and through no one else's fault but my own, I kept on training and that led to us chasing our tails a bit.

    "I guess it was as frustrating for the team as it was for me. Around Romandie and those races I had to put my hand up and tell them exactly how I was, and I didn't."

    It was a situation that Julich knew all too well and likened to his own experience in 1999 having finished third overall at the Tour de France the previous season.

    "I thought I had it all figured out and I think he thought he had it all figured out as well," Julich admitted. "You really need to have a support team and you need to dance with the girl that brought you, sort of thing and don't move too far away from what you were doing.

    "Everyone has seasons like that," Julich continued. "You want to come out and confirm your amazing results with more amazing results; you try to do too much sometimes. He just needs to get back to basics and do what works for him."

    Cause, effect and another sort of reward

    Unexpectedly, Porte found himself back at the Giro when the plan had been for him to concentrate on the Tour de France. Pockets of the Australian media considered this to be a somewhat controversial move by team management but it's a decision that Porte maintains he had the final say on.

    "We knew that it was never going to be me riding for GC but we were just trying to get some good kilometres in the legs and a bit of morale back," Porte explained. "To be honest the last week of the Giro I was coming good." Something that Porte confirmed with a respectable fourth on the final stage time trial in Milan.

    In preparation for his debut at the Tour de France, Porte was feeling his best all season having banished his troublesome allergies and spent some time at altitude doing some "mindless climbing." Still, his third Grand Tour was not about personal ambition. He went on to finish fifth in the penultimate stage, the individual time trial where countryman Cadel Evans (BMC) took control of the yellow jersey.

    According to Julich, watching from afar, the results that Porte was able to post in the race against the clock was about some of the weight of expectation being lifted and a chance of redemption, a rare moment in a team sport that could be about self – something he had drilled into Porte over a year earlier.

    "It was almost a comforting role for him because he did not have that pressure because he wasn't ready but then that competitive spirit that Richie has, that was kind of stifled and the only time he could let that out was in the time trials," Julich said.

    Persistence eventually paid off for Porte at the Tour of Denmark in August where he claimed his lone win of the season and unsurprisingly, it was in the individual time trial where he bettered Saxo Bank – SunGard teammate Gustav Larsson and Sky's Alex Dowsett by 10 and 17 seconds respectively.

    Eventually standing on the top of the podium aside, the Tasmanian took away more from his year of toil than would first appear.

    "I may not have had great personal achievements but I learnt a hell of a lot off Alberto and also Bjarne," Porte admits. "I rode two Grand Tours with them and maybe that's the best lesson I could have had."

    Welcome to the saving grace

    Porte explained that it came as a surprise to him that Sky were still interested in his services following the trials and tribulations of 2011.

    "They'd actually done a lot of research into me which, I guess is nice," he said. "They're the one team that identified that I took some big steps last year and I think that the first two years of being a professional are a learning curve whereas I didn't really have to do so much learning. I'd go to races for the first time and the next thing, I'd be the protected rider."

    Julich concedes that aside from working with his natural ability, the next steps for Porte are about more than his development as a rider.

    "I've known him for two years since he's come into the professional world so I think he trusts me, I hope I earn his trust and I hope that we, the Team can help him get back to where he should be," Julich said.

    "Regardless of his results this year, I want him to learn to take responsibility for his profession, for himself. We're there to help him but the most important thing is that personal growth because once that happens, things fall into line. If you have something one year and you don't have it the next, then you've kind of lost. But if you've had the basic skills, that basic organisation, those core values that make you who you are, you take that with you to every scenario."

    Porte is relishing the opportunity to be a part of the Team Sky line up, a destination key to his continuing development in the professional peloton and stacked with GC options with Brad Wiggins, Chris Froome at their disposal for the three-week epics. With the Australian's race program yet to be decided where he will fit within the pecking order is still unclear although Porte told Cyclingnews he would like to target GC in the smaller stage races, but most importantly be consistent throughout all elements of his racing.

    "He's definitely a talent, he's a young talent - we like that on our team," said Julich. "We obviously have some riders that have the proven GC credentials, a little bit higher than him but he's going to be a very important part of our team and now it's up to us to make him feel comfortable there."
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #606 on: March 10, 2013, 22:12 »
    When you dont have the answers reach for the PR spin........
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #607 on: March 10, 2013, 23:42 »
    I actually dont have too much of an issue with the statement that Porte has the talent to win PN.

    He has shown he has substantial talent - I do think the work done by his team is perhaps above their ability so brings a few questions - but Porte's results on their own stand up.

    When you add in to the equation the fact that Sky can dominate and control the pace for the entire race of not only this race, but TA at the same time ... and the questions I have about Froome ... now we are starting to get many more questions than I have answers for.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #608 on: March 11, 2013, 00:03 »
    Quote
    What the Giro proved was that Porte had the potential to climb, seriously climb. He was always able to TT. There was also a tenth at Romandie. This for a guy in his first season in Europe.

    This comment seems to me to be  based entirely on looking at the results and not the context behind them or the actual race.

    Showing that he had the potential to seriously climb was the one thing Porte did not show at the 2010 Giro. He lost 14 minutes to Basso on the main 3 mountain stages and another 2 minutes on the mountain tt (the thing he just owned today), and this while trying to keep the jersey and a top 5.

    Porte  10th in Romandie was because he destroyed the tt. There wasnt much climbing.  Sagan finished  only 20 seconds behind him.

    And since you consider the PN and TA fields this year as weak, the field at Romandie that year was even worse.   
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #609 on: March 11, 2013, 00:10 »
    In isolation, "winning" P-N is nothing special. There are heaps of guys who have shown the same level of ability... Eros Capecchi, Diego Ulissi, Gianluca Brambilla, Benat Intxausti, Jerome Coppel, Steven Kruijswijk, Tiago Machado. But how many of them will ever be in the position to win, let alone dominate it.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #610 on: March 11, 2013, 01:21 »
    Lot of fuss about nothing. Porte has always shown abilty and this was an incredibly weak Paris Nice, the only previous winner was kloden from about 30 years ago, a rag tag bunch of young up and coming riders, and riders on their way down.

    Not wanting to discredit Ritchie but it was pee poor, the racing was good enough but the field was very average. Porte and Talansky fighting out one of the biggest races in the calendar? Really?

    Just shows how screwed the WT is. You can have the best 18 teams in the world and still end up with a very mediocre field.

    and as for comparing a couple of paris nice stages with hills, to the giro where theres three weeks of racing over HC mountains.. not even worth comparison.
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  • DinZ

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #611 on: March 11, 2013, 01:53 »
    The problem with the logic that too many riders are going well on sky therefore they must all be doping is that it also works for what they say is the real reason they are doing well.

    the change to approach, the focus on data, the group training sessions, the application of science to the situation. People have talked about how sky over the last couple of years have really changed the style of racing which some believe is killing excitement but is also allowing their riders to prosper.

    saying the whole team dopes is to ignore the riders that have gone their and disappointed and left. Pretty much all of them have complained about the rigid science of the team and the structure and how they struggled in that atmosphere. so it makes sense that year after year the riders that are staying are those that prosper in that atmosphere and therefore will improve under it

    i also think that people think that sky cannot get much advantage from their approach as surely all the teams do the same thing, but have read in autobiographies how backward some teams are and how people will solidly stick to traditional methods and not believe in something new. they do do things differently to other teams they have shown last year in the way they raced and trained that they changed things and took new approaches.

    but hey believing that is too simple for most people



     
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #612 on: March 11, 2013, 02:33 »
    The problem with the logic that too many riders are going well on sky therefore they must all be doping is that it also works for what they say is the real reason they are doing well.

    the change to approach, the focus on data, the group training sessions, the application of science to the situation. People have talked about how sky over the last couple of years have really changed the style of racing which some believe is killing excitement but is also allowing their riders to prosper.

    saying the whole team dopes is to ignore the riders that have gone their and disappointed and left. Pretty much all of them have complained about the rigid science of the team and the structure and how they struggled in that atmosphere. so it makes sense that year after year the riders that are staying are those that prosper in that atmosphere and therefore will improve under it

    i also think that people think that sky cannot get much advantage from their approach as surely all the teams do the same thing, but have read in autobiographies how backward some teams are and how people will solidly stick to traditional methods and not believe in something new. they do do things differently to other teams they have shown last year in the way they raced and trained that they changed things and took new approaches.

    leaving off the snarky last sentence  :D - you make a good point.

    Budget - and spending it well - makes a HUGE difference.  Buying good riders, and supporting them with science (nutrition, training, equipment, coaching etc) will obviously lift the team capabilities - and there is no doubt that Sky have done this exceptionally well.

    Do I think that answers all of the questions I have?  no.   But it goes a fair way.
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #613 on: March 11, 2013, 03:14 »
    Evans struggled to fit in at Telekom.
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #614 on: March 11, 2013, 05:15 »
    Yep, those goddamn Pinnies really are tough to master.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #615 on: March 11, 2013, 09:33 »
    This comment seems to me to be  based entirely on looking at the results and not the context behind them or the actual race.

    Showing that he had the potential to seriously climb was the one thing Porte did not show at the 2010 Giro. He lost 14 minutes to Basso on the main 3 mountain stages and another 2 minutes on the mountain tt (the thing he just owned today), and this while trying to keep the jersey and a top 5.

    Porte  10th in Romandie was because he destroyed the tt. There wasnt much climbing.  Sagan finished  only 20 seconds behind him.

    And since you consider the PN and TA fields this year as weak, the field at Romandie that year was even worse.
    No. You're just looking at the stats. The fact that he was even within within 14 minutes in his first GT was a sign of huge potential. What had he attempted to do before that bore any relation to what he faced in that Giro?

    And that uphill TT?  It wasn't anything like the Col d'Eze. How many riders had TT bikes? Gadret 3rd - the awesome TTer that he is.

    And you're missing the point. It's not that he demonstrated he was good enough to win PN in 2010, it's that he demonstrated he had the potential to win races with climbing and a decisive TT.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #616 on: March 11, 2013, 09:39 »
    here is the thing

    Sky might not be doping

    or

    Sky might be doping

    Sky might be using products not yet on the banned list

    Sky might be using techniques not on the banned list

    Everyone else maybe a little off

    Doping levels maybe down in the peloton

    1 team domination = new arms race that concerns me
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #617 on: March 11, 2013, 09:55 »
    Don't worry people, come the Giro Nibali will show the world what remains of that Sky dominance if faced with some serious competition on actual climbs :D
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #618 on: March 11, 2013, 11:12 »
    Mr Arroyo was in the break with Porte, managed to keep up with Basso et all longer than the super talent Porte. As for it being his first GT, I believe people have won GT's at a younger age and their first go.

    As for 2011, who knows but I've heard he was peeed that he didn't get more $$$$ and Froomey said that Porte was ill for 2011. But was he ever thought as a 'climber'?  I don't think that he was, maybe more a puncheur, but I could be wrong.

    If you look at the greats, they all started to lose it not long after they turned 30. I'm sure in this age of athletes looking after themselves much better than they did in the past. But I'm sure Porte with the help of swimming coaches and marginal gains will win GT's for the next decade, well if there aren't any other super talented British donkeys waiting to win.
    I'm aware of what Arroyo achieved, I just don't see what the career trajectory of a European rider coming towards the end of his career has to do with a completely different rider at the beginning of his.

    The other thing that happened in 2011 was that Saxo changed from being a down-on-it's-luck Danish outfit to being the home of the 'World's best' and the change in status and aspiration that that brought. I don't see what is extraordinary about the scenario where rider is happy, then team culture changes and rider is unhappy so rider changes team and is now happy again.

    As for age of riders, the length of their careers is just as important as their age. Late starters will go on longer than say Andy Schleck. Cadel Evans did, and that is the point about coming from the Aussie domestic scene where there isn't the need to prepare for doing a GT from the age of 20, however good you are.

    It seems to me that there is no possibility a rider can develop 'naturally' into a winner while at Sky in some people's opinion. The weird thing is that I can remember all the comment on the transfer being positive at the time; no-one was calling him talentless with no potential before he transferred. If Quintana were to transfer to Sky, just wait for all his current achievements to be trashed.

    Although he does live in Monaco... I find that Monaco set quite interesting although there's no reason why they should all 'prepare' for races together.
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #619 on: March 11, 2013, 19:54 »
    I am finding the defence of Sky similar to those that defended Armstrong.

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #620 on: March 11, 2013, 20:03 »
    I am finding the defence of Sky similar to those that defended Armstrong.

    It is so is the arguments from the anti sky side, still does not mean we know what or what it not going on .

    To quote Armstrong ssdd  :lol
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #621 on: March 11, 2013, 20:15 »
    But the anti Lance/USPS side were right.

    And now they have moved onto sky. Which is fine but it does get boring.

    And fwiw it is more about personalities rather than anti-doping for most imho, which again is fine.

    And because they were right about L.A. does not mean they are right about sky, Does not mean they are wrong ofc but ssdd

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #622 on: March 11, 2013, 20:26 »
    Aye

    Just stirring a little as well  ;)
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  • DinZ

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #623 on: March 11, 2013, 20:32 »
    I am finding the defence of Sky similar to those that defended Armstrong.

    wow way to encourage discussion on the subject.

    this is the trouble with sky becoming the new Armstrong, prevents reasonable discussion in my book

    the difference with Armstrong is there was always a rather large amount of evidence that there was doping, but they could not make it stick. we do not have that with sky yet, just snide comments based on results. The Omerta is still strong but i also do not believe that in the current atmosphere of people opening up that not one voice has come out and tried to say there is systematic doping at sky. there have been people dropped from the team in slightly harsh ways and some that seem to dislike the team afterwards, and yet not one has even hinted at anything.

    But hey anyone who tries to speak against the very vocal forum / twitter crowd that have already decided what is happening is just naive.

     
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  • DinZ

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #624 on: March 11, 2013, 20:38 »
    It does get boring, but if a team's actions are exactly the same as one(s) that got busted, what are people to do?

    Sky could come out and release every piece of testing information etc and maybe that would show 'they're 4 real'. Instead we get the same junk from the USPS playbook and the 'we don't hire anyone with a dodgy past'.

    I have no problem with Wiggins/Porte/Froome on any other rider on Sky. I have a problem with dopers, I don't care if they ride for Sky or random Pro-Conti team, or if they're American, Australian if they're doping they should go forever.

    See i hate this popular thing to compare the race techniques and say Sky are doping cause they race like US Postal. I think the US postal 'playbook' and doping are separate things. despite the noise lets not forget that everyone was doping and every team had systemised (not sure how to spell that) doping programs. yes some may have had more money that others but everyone was doing it, so my personal opinion is that US postal riding races differently to others was not down to doping but trying something different.

    again i am sure there will be plenty that will shoot my opinion down but i still fundamentally think that there is way way too much bias in the world of cycling fans and all doping discussion is driven way more by how much certain fans like a team or like the way they ride and not nearly enough by reason.

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #625 on: March 11, 2013, 20:43 »
    Agreed 're personalities driving doping debates.

    Trains are way older than usps, they just did it faster more consistent than others .

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  • esafosfina

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #626 on: March 11, 2013, 20:45 »
    Agreed 're personalities driving doping debates.

    Trains are way older than usps, they just did it faster more consistent than others .

    Agreed... Panasonic and Superconfex both had good trains back in the day, as did ADR (when we got it right!)
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  • "Sturgess, don't you dare get off that bike" - Sean Kelly, Nokere, 1989.

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #627 on: March 11, 2013, 21:22 »
    I am finding the defence of Sky similar to those that defended Armstrong.
    Big difference with the whole situation for me is the fact that there is no one coming forward having said anything.

    Give it time and certainly info should leak, I would have thought. I guess we will see.
    To me that makes it a whole lot harder to pick sides than last time.

    Post Merge: March 11, 2013, 21:23
    And now they have moved onto sky. Which is fine but it does get boring.

    And it makes you wonder, when will it ever stop?
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #628 on: March 11, 2013, 21:27 »

    Sky could come out and release every piece of testing information etc and maybe that would show 'they're 4 real'.
    Can they realistically really release that testing information?

    There will be guys saying it was fabricated, I have seen guys in the clinic looking at what seemed to me as perfectly normal values and saying that they indicate doping. Vaughters said how he saw some of the most suspicious values from a rider who was known as being clean (many posters took that as being Moncoutie).
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #629 on: March 11, 2013, 21:35 »
    I'm not saying that Sky are doping because they have 7-8 guys rding tempo on a climb or several climbs, USPS weren't the first team to do that and Sky wont be the last.

    My problem with Sky is they make all this noise about being clean and cutting edge and not hiring those with a dodgy past etc, but when asked questions regarding the hiring of someone with a dodgy past, they deny all knowledge of said persons past. I mean of the roster they had last year, Rogers was the only one with a 'past' or was he expendable due to his age, if he was 5 or 6 years younger would they have kept him for this year?

    They could do alot more to prove that they're clean and by opening up they could help clean the sport up and when Sky rider wins the Tour there will be no doubts that he did it clean. But the longer they keep the door closed and issue the cliched replies, that were given by teams such as Rabobank, USPS, T-Mobile etc, the harder it is to believe Sky now.

    I do kinda hope Sky are clean, since they've come along I've had no issues whilst I've been out on my bike, before cycling became 'big time' in the UK it was like riding on certain roads back home, not safe.
    It's an interesting point about how a team that has an ethical basis treats those who have breached those ideals while in previous employment. Possoni (no great loss), Barry and Rogers have all been quietly let go. How would you treat such an employee? Public flogging?
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