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froome19

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Re: Sky
« Reply #630 on: March 11, 2013, 21:40 »

My problem with Sky is they make all this noise about being clean and cutting edge and not hiring those with a dodgy past etc, but when asked questions regarding the hiring of someone with a dodgy past, they deny all knowledge of said persons past. I mean of the roster they had last year, Rogers was the only one with a 'past' or was he expendable due to his age, if he was 5 or 6 years younger would they have kept him for this year?

They could do alot more to prove that they're clean and by opening up they could help clean the sport up and when Sky rider wins the Tour there will be no doubts that he did it clean. But the longer they keep the door closed and issue the cliched replies, that were given by teams such as Rabobank, USPS, T-Mobile etc, the harder it is to believe Sky now.

I see it as the PR being poor but I don't see how that is related to doping performances. If anything they would be more impressive and ready for doping PR tactics if they were doping. Considering how thought out Sky are you would think they would be thought out in their approach to dealing with the press and defending attacks questioning their doping. It is a start though and hopefully not an end as I believe they can go much further, but just stating they should open up is not as easy as it may sound originally. Kerrison recently held a 3 hour conference to the press presenting them with graphs and all that explaining how their training works.

They are treading on thin ice. How could they open up more? They have allowed Walsh to come in and view their training camps which is pretty impressive, and it is also another thing which differentiates the case from that of Lance's, even considering Walsh's apparent bias.



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    Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #631 on: March 11, 2013, 21:45 »
    Agreed... Panasonic and Superconfex both had good trains back in the day, as did ADR (when we got it right!)

    you can go back further than that, Faema made an art of having five men on the front and one man in the break just in case.
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  • killswitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #632 on: March 11, 2013, 22:04 »
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  • Joelsim: The huge winner today - Landa.
    just some guy: Aye he marginal gained the flip out of it

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #633 on: March 11, 2013, 22:59 »
    This article seems to be dividing opinions on Twitter but it is quite some article nevertheless. Hopefully it will provide some perspective:

    http://www.cyclismas.com/2013/03/portly-richie-sparks-the-scaremongers-into-a-frenzy/
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #634 on: March 11, 2013, 23:22 »
    Well it just shows that Sky's research isn't as cutting edge as they'd like you to believe and how they like to present it at every given opportunity. I'm guessing if you're in the 'inner circle' of pro cycling you'll know who has a past and who doesn't. I find it hard that Sir Dave who's been involved in cycling since the mid 90's didn't know that Rogers, Barry etc were dirty or that hiring Sean Yates was a great idea. Nope they were hired cos Sir Dave wanted to win(british winner of the TdF within 5 years) at all costs.

    The way to make cycling clean is to ban people who fail tests for life, so no returning as a rider or becoming a DS or owner of a team. All this reformed doper chat is utter balls, they know the rules before they take drugs the first or thousandth time and I guess they only see it as 'bad luck' that they fail a test and they know within 12-18 months a team will come calling with a contract. So how should Rogers, Barry, Possoni etc be treated, with the same amount of aversion and contempt they showed us when they broke the rules.
    They may have shown you contempt but for DB etc they put their bodies on the line to help bring success to others on the team, people they roomed with, shared their life with, people who are going to be left once these guys have been removed. The equation's different for a team boss, to expect it to be otherwise is to deny human nature.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #635 on: March 12, 2013, 16:14 »
    666 replies. I believe it's a sign.
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  • RIP Keith
    RIP krebs

    just some guy

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    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #637 on: March 13, 2013, 14:52 »
    AFAIC bailsford is declaring himself an enemy of cycling with this ridiculous patronizing comment

    Quote
    If people want the entertainment value of riders attacking each other, stopping, attacking each other again and again, then go back to 'old cycling', which will give you the capability to do that.
    If you want clean sport and clean cycling, then it's going to be different. You can't have it both ways. There's an element of reality about what were doing.

    Attacking = doped.

    Sky = clean and all clean cycling will follow the model I dave bailsford have set.
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Flo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #638 on: March 13, 2013, 14:55 »
    Gee what a clown. Don't trust this dude at all.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #639 on: March 13, 2013, 15:11 »
    AFAIC bailsford is declaring himself an enemy of cycling with this ridiculous patronizing comment

    Attacking = doped.

    Sky = clean and all clean cycling will follow the model I dave bailsford have set.

    well the context is a bit out, he's not saying anyone who attacks is dirty, but referring to the crazy days of armstrong, pantani when it was just all out attacks from everyone.

    Brailsford is in a no win, if he says nothing, the team are doping, if he denies it, the team are doping, if he comes forward with explanations and reasons, hes a  liar..

    All it means is when the five years are up, Sky will be out..and just wave goodbye
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #640 on: March 13, 2013, 15:43 »
    well the context is a bit out, he's not saying anyone who attacks is dirty, but referring to the crazy days of armstrong, pantani when it was just all out attacks from everyone.

    Brailsford is in a no win, if he says nothing, the team are doping, if he denies it, the team are doping, if he comes forward with explanations and reasons, hes a  liar..

    All it means is when the five years are up, Sky will be out..and just wave goodbye

    I agree it is a no win situation

    The bed is theirs, they made it , but it does not matter in the internet world what they say or do, David Walsh maybe going down with them which is ironic

    but flip me it´s getting boring
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #641 on: March 13, 2013, 16:16 »
    ah come on. Brailsford just sounds ridiculous

    The Leinders story is getting worse, from 80 days down to 40. Soon it will be less or he was never around. He gave Porte strepsils and panadol, well why the fck do they need a doc. Strepsils and panadal can be got at a chemist without prescription.

    The Sky fans defending it have forgotten everything that has gone before in the sport and all the sad and stupid excuses rolled out to explain the performances. Brailsford and Sky are the latest in a long long line that gone before.

    No doubt Sky fans feel that Sky are getting so much flal and it is unfair, well they brought it on themselves with their clean and houlier than thou BS. It is absolutely insulting to fans and the rest of the sport with their claims of marginal gains. Heck, all the pro teams have trying ways to find marginal gains over their rivals since the sport began.

    I mean take the latest from Richie Porte about Leinders. Leinders did nothing different then the doctors at Saxo? FFS!!!! Saxo, Riis after what we know how he operates that means Leinders and Sky were and are doing a Saxo, which is doping. Thanks for clearing it up Porte, no more debate needed.

    Take of the blinkers.

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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #642 on: March 13, 2013, 16:25 »
    you know me Beno no fan here just bored with it at the minute
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #643 on: March 13, 2013, 16:39 »
    ah come on. Brailsford just sounds ridiculous

    ...
    Take of the blinkers.
    Pointless. If successful team doesn't say they're clean, they're dopers. If they do say they're clean, they're dopers and hypocrits. Straight out of the Ladybird book of nihilism.
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #644 on: March 13, 2013, 16:56 »
    Pointless. If successful team doesn't say they're clean, they're dopers. If they do say they're clean, they're dopers and hypocrits. Straight out of the Ladybird book of nihilism.

    Thanks for proving my point.

    Where are OPQS going on about being clean? Radioshack? BMC? Saxo? They are not talking about doping. Go read Cannodale (ex liquigas) statement for 2013. They do not mention doping, being clean or anything remotely to do with the bright new future of the sport and no more dopers, doping bla blah. Sky and to a lesser extent Garmin have been blowing their own trumpets of being clean. Well when you do that and dont back it up with proof after dominating races, you are going to get slaughtered and rightly so.

    http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.ie/2012/09/liquigas-cannondale-becomes-cannondale.html

    I keep saying it, the sport is inhabited by all the same people from the last 25 years. Show me where they changed and what made them change. Bruyneel was a DS till the near the end of last year. Riis, Rihs, Och, Lefevere, Martinelli, Vino, Unzue etc etc all these guys are still there with the UCI at the top of the steaming pile.

    Keep shooting the messengers, but Sky have not proved they are clean. In fact they have done the opposite, hiring doping riders, ex doping riders, doping doctors and when asked about it have given the unbelievable explanation of ignorance to these peoples past. Yeah a small sport like cycling and they did not do their homework after the huge claim to clean and transparent.

    We have seen and heard it all before. Sky are doping some if not all their riders. We will find out not with anti doping, but by the usual method of the police, ex employees or diligant journalism.



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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #645 on: March 13, 2013, 17:20 »
    All it means is when the five years are up, Sky will be out..and just wave goodbye
    I don't think so.
    I don't think that the internet world is as powerful as people make it out to be. There are also all of those people who come up to me saying Bradley Wiggins Tour de France winner and he races for Team Sky. Sky if anything seem to want to further their involvement not withdraw from it.

    I don't blame Brailsford for getting a bit aggravated. People have a right to doubt of course but to call him out on everything he says or anything Sky does is a bit far, that is if he is clean of course.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #646 on: March 13, 2013, 17:27 »
    ah come on. Brailsford just sounds ridiculous

    The Leinders story is getting worse, from 80 days down to 40. Soon it will be less or he was never around. He gave Porte strepsils and panadol, well why the fck do they need a doc. Strepsils and panadal can be got at a chemist without prescription.

    The Sky fans defending it have forgotten everything that has gone before in the sport and all the sad and stupid excuses rolled out to explain the performances. Brailsford and Sky are the latest in a long long line that gone before.

    No doubt Sky fans feel that Sky are getting so much flal and it is unfair, well they brought it on themselves with their clean and houlier than thou BS. It is absolutely insulting to fans and the rest of the sport with their claims of marginal gains. Heck, all the pro teams have trying ways to find marginal gains over their rivals since the sport began.

    I mean take the latest from Richie Porte about Leinders. Leinders did nothing different then the doctors at Saxo? FFS!!!! Saxo, Riis after what we know how he operates that means Leinders and Sky were and are doing a Saxo, which is doping. Thanks for clearing it up Porte, no more debate needed.

    Take of the blinkers.
    But however stupid people's opinion may seem, there are still a lot of people who I would consider rational, sane and reasonably intelligent people who do hold those opinions, so obviously they are not that far fetched and ridiculous. Even if they do come across as ridiculous that does not mean they are so, that is just from your point of view. I don't think it is fair to deride them for holding an opinion which many others hold and which from their point of view can be perfectly viable. There is obviously some grounds for it because many respected people consider and hold it. Yes the same thing happened with Armstrong, but some of these guys were the main protagonists against Armstrong.

    Also what do you think? Is Porte really hinting that Leinders was doping?
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #647 on: March 13, 2013, 21:04 »
    But however stupid people's opinion may seem, there are still a lot of people who I would consider rational, sane and reasonably intelligent people who do hold those opinions, so obviously they are not that far fetched and ridiculous. Even if they do come across as ridiculous that does not mean they are so, that is just from your point of view. I don't think it is fair to deride them for holding an opinion which many others hold and which from their point of view can be perfectly viable. There is obviously some grounds for it because many respected people consider and hold it. Yes the same thing happened with Armstrong, but some of these guys were the main protagonists against Armstrong.

    I find that Brailsford has totally lost the plot. The PR attacks, and they have been attacks and are directed at fans of the sport who dont deserve to be attcked, have been something that is not what a team who had nothing to hide would be releasing. His reluctance to address Leinders getting a job at Sky, his reasons for firing all those who had a doping past was stupid. It does not add up. If Yates for example, had a past but that is what it was a past, why get rid of him? Only reason to get rid of him was if he had not changed from his past, same for Jullich and the others. As i said it does not add up. I wish Sky were clean and that they were the most pro team out there who were clean and winning and the sport was back to days when the true talents had a chance to shine through the dirt. But i just cannot see it.


    Also what do you think? Is Porte really hinting that Leinders was doping?

    I think what Porte has done is speak to other riders and teams with his words. And to me he has said yes Sky are like every other team in the sport.

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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #648 on: March 17, 2013, 03:02 »
    Walsh article said a whole lot of nothing (talks generally about Leinders, doesn't mention Rasmussen accusations)... only interesting bit was at the end:

    Quote
    They come to this training camp in Tenerife without a doctor, as Kerrison likes to strip things down when they’re in Teide. “There’s a time for giving the riders all the support and a time for focusing them on the things that matter. Up here we try to eliminate all the distractions.” He then adds: “We’ve been here eight times and only once have the testers come. It’s only a two-hour flight from Spain, a 50-minute drive from the airport. Once in eight visits here is pretty disappointing.”
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #649 on: March 17, 2013, 21:04 »
    Walsh article said a whole lot of nothing (talks generally about Leinders, doesn't mention Rasmussen accusations)... only interesting bit was at the end:

    More Sky BS. How did all those teams manage that cant afford 'training' in Tenerife? Must be terrible being a pro in Girona, Nice, Monaco, Belgium, Holland, France and other places where riders have to get up and train. That is all they have to do is train? What going to Tenerife changes, apart from doping, is again more Sky BS?

    I think Walsh is not taken in. He cant write about what he hasn't seen. He could also quite possible be setting Sky up for a huge fall by talking to ex Sky people in the same manner he talked to Emma O'Reilly, Stephen Swart and others. Not unreasonable.
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  • just some guy

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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #651 on: March 19, 2013, 14:00 »
    Things that DB is good at...

    1) Running cycling teams.


    Things that DB is bad at...

    1) Analogies
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  • DinZ

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #652 on: March 19, 2013, 19:58 »
    Things that DB is good at...

    1) Running cycling teams.


    Things that DB is bad at...

    1) Analogies

    they should hire Ian Holloway for interviews


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  • « Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 21:43 by L'arriviste, Reason: let\'s show the video! »

    L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #653 on: March 19, 2013, 21:43 »
    they should hire Ian Holloway for interviews



    At least that guy is funny, albeit in a 20th century sort of way. :D
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon / Larry Sarni

    Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #654 on: March 25, 2013, 00:33 »
    Cards on table. Sky are not, to my knowledge doing anything that is currently banned.

    No EPO
    No CERA
    No Blood tranfusions

    Are they doing things that are borderline, not illegal, but certainly dodgy.. yes..

    Are they doing things that will be banned in a few years... ? probably
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  • « Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 00:46 by Dim »

    just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #655 on: March 25, 2013, 04:59 »
    Cards on table. Sky are not, to my knowledge doing anything that is currently banned.

    No EPO
    No CERA
    No Blood tranfusions

    Are they doing things that are borderline, not illegal, but certainly dodgy.. yes..

    Are they doing things that will be banned in a few years... ? probably

    Rider driven or team ?
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #656 on: March 25, 2013, 10:12 »
    Cards on table. Sky are not, to my knowledge doing anything that is currently banned.

    No EPO
    No CERA
    No Blood tranfusions

    Are they doing things that are borderline, not illegal, but certainly dodgy.. yes..

    Are they doing things that will be banned in a few years... ? probably
    That reads that you know they are doing something ethically dodgy to boost performance. Is that the case? or have you added 2 & 2 together?
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #657 on: March 25, 2013, 16:28 »
    "To my knowledge" and "knowing" is a fine line...

    I think they were very safe inviting Walsh around as I am 99% sure there is no EPO or Transfusions going on, certainly not on a team level, although who the hell knows what a rider gets up to in in private.

    There are hoodles of "legal" ways, medicines that arent banned, that the bunch of ex-gp's they have can prescribe without need for a doping doctor.

    And things like this http://velorooms.com/index.php/topic,1985.0.html for instance, when I first heard about this last summer, it scared the crap out of me, its something that just shouldnt be messed with. It was pointed out to me by an Aussie, with Sky and Greenedge amongst the teams mentioned.

    I think AG sums it up fairly well in teh other thread

    I dont think its 'team sponsored doping' on the level we saw with USPS or anything like that ...

    But I do think that teams push the boundaries as much as they can sports science wise.  I do think that team doctors encourage and advise riders on 'alternative preparation' on an individual basis.  I do think that team management, doctors and sports directors regularly look the other way for individual riders who organise their own programs and methods.

    I think that
    - most riders push the boundaries in terms of things like cortisone that you can get a TUE for, and other things that are currently legal or can be maneuvered around ... but are decidedly dodgy


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  • killswitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #658 on: March 27, 2013, 00:25 »
    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/thomson-reuters/130323/defiant-evans-confident-he-can-rekindle-former-glory

    Quote
    "Normally, putting guys at such a high level in the early season means you're going to pay for it later in the year, that would be the normal case - time will tell in that regard," said Evans.
    Evans drops a hint about "the performance" of Sky . Not for the first time this year either.  :rolleye

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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #659 on: March 27, 2013, 10:36 »
    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/thomson-reuters/130323/defiant-evans-confident-he-can-rekindle-former-glory
    Evans drops a hint about "the performance" of Sky . Not for the first time this year either.  :rolleye
    Eh? In his Tour winning year, Evans won just about every race he entered from T_A onwards.

    "Evans' 2011 performance highly dodgy, claims Evans" shock.
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  • « Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 15:47 by Capt_Cavman, Reason: Forgot the words \'he entered\' »

     

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