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benotti69

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Re: Sky
« Reply #660 on: March 27, 2013, 14:33 »
"To my knowledge" and "knowing" is a fine line...

I think they were very safe inviting Walsh around as I am 99% sure there is no EPO or Transfusions going on, certainly not on a team level, although who the hell knows what a rider gets up to in in private.

There are hoodles of "legal" ways, medicines that arent banned, that the bunch of ex-gp's they have can prescribe without need for a doping doctor.

And things like this http://velorooms.com/index.php/topic,1985.0.html for instance, when I first heard about this last summer, it scared the crap out of me, its something that just shouldnt be messed with. It was pointed out to me by an Aussie, with Sky and Greenedge amongst the teams mentioned.

I think AG sums it up fairly well in teh other thread

I think you are being Naive Dim. Sky have a 'program' for their GT teams at least.

If Sky were clean, then Garmin* would be up there in a dominant manner similar to Sky. DZ, CVV, TD, DM et al are all super domestiques.

No one has yet to explain how a clean team can beat all the doping teams?

UCI hasn't changed. Remember what they did with Lance? Why not Sky? Sky has a nice cosy relationship with Brit Cycling. Sky made a big presentation to ASO for TdF! Sky are not transparent. Sky talk about warm downs as if they invented it. Sky tell lies all the time. Review their PR from last 3 years. Riders who did very little at other teams suddenly out performing GC leaders on dirty teams.  It all adds up and in cycling as Ullrich told us 1+1 = 2.


*for the record i dont believe Garmin ride only on pane e acqua. But i do think Garmin has a pretty damn good internal monitoring system to prevent positive and BP anomalies.





 
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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #661 on: March 27, 2013, 14:35 »
    I think you are being Naive Dim. Sky have a 'program' for their GT teams at least.


    Not being naive.. never said they didnt have a program.

    But the program isnt based around traditional epo, transfusions.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #662 on: March 27, 2013, 14:51 »
    ... Riders who did very little at other teams suddenly out performing GC leaders on dirty teams...
    If we're talking BS, this statement is high on the list, always peddled by people who spend too much time in the clinic. It seems like it's meaningful but when you look at it, it means nothing.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #663 on: March 27, 2013, 15:45 »
    Really? Best you tell Cuddles to update his website then:

    http://www.cadelevans.com.au/results.aspx
    Oops. I meant to say, 'every race he entered'
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #664 on: March 27, 2013, 16:42 »
    If we're talking BS, this statement is high on the list, always peddled by people who spend too much time in the clinic. It seems like it's meaningful but when you look at it, it means nothing.

    Going from the grupetto in a GT to the podium? The excuse of concentrating on the track is lame at best.

    I have asked many a time, what has changed in the sport? Did all the dopers, team owners, doping DS, doping docs, dope dealers, etc all leave the sport? On top on that you have the UCI running the sport for personal gain.

    So where has the sport actually cleaned up?

    Anyone who thinks that Ferarri ha stopped working needs to wake up. Same for others. Del Moral is working with Valencia FC ffs and probably has a few riders on the side.

    So Sky are beating all these and they do it on pane e acqua?
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #665 on: March 27, 2013, 21:57 »
    Going from the grupetto in a GT to the podium? The excuse of concentrating on the track is lame at best.

    I have asked many a time, what has changed in the sport? Did all the dopers, team owners, doping DS, doping docs, dope dealers, etc all leave the sport? On top on that you have the UCI running the sport for personal gain.

    So where has the sport actually cleaned up?

    Anyone who thinks that Ferarri ha stopped working needs to wake up. Same for others. Del Moral is working with Valencia FC ffs and probably has a few riders on the side.

    So Sky are beating all these and they do it on pane e acqua?
    Even the grupetto to the podium argument totally fails to take into consideration what the riders' aims were in each case. In how many GTs has Wiggins actually attempted a GC placing?

    Then again there are also a large number of riders who've done nothing at Sky. EBH and Gerrans were huge money signings and haven't delivered. For every Froome there are 3 or 4 John Lee Augustyns, it's the way sport is, sportsmen have ups and downs, latent talent is discovered and huge potential is found to lead to nothing more.

    As for the rest of your post I agree entirely, the sport isn't clean, hasn't been cleaned and it is unlikely that a team like Sky can dominate while being totally clean.

    BUT there is no (or close to no) evidence that Sky are dirty. This seems to make a group of posters far angrier than if there was any evidence, leading them to come up with plainly nonsensical statements like "Brailsford lies all the time."; "Sky haven't improved their roster through new signings" ; "All riders improve dramatically at Sky", "XYZ was crap before he joined Sky" etc etc. All these highly improbable 'facts' get bandied around the CN clinic like they are on tablets of stone and there's such a mob hysteria there that any opposing view just gets shouted down.

    Me, I'll continue to broadly favour those riders who I think are most likely to be clean but if others want to see Contador or Nibali grind Sky into the ground, it's no skin off my nose, as long as they don't invoke some BS about Sky's 'dirtiness' to justify it.

    The shame is, that while we're talking about stuff that's going nowhere, there are interesting questions we could be asking. But what's the point?



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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #666 on: March 29, 2013, 12:11 »
    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/thomson-reuters/130323/defiant-evans-confident-he-can-rekindle-former-glory
    Evans drops a hint about "the performance" of Sky . Not for the first time this year either.  :rolleye

    in fairness, if you include the whole of what he said ... it seems (to me at least) that he is talking not about Wiggins' form, but that of Sky overall - fielding 2 whole teams of dominating mountain stages of TA and PN - saying if the Teams are that strong early on, the doms may pay for it later.

    Quote
    "They seem to be very, very well prepared for the early part of the season with two whole teams of strong climbers and in the mountains at least they can dictate their own terms," said Evans. 

    Sky will go to the Tour looking to retain their title, either through Britain's Froome or compatriot Wiggins, who has though made the Giro d'Italia his main goal this season.

    Both will be helped by a small army of pure climbers such as Colombians Rigoberto Uran and Sergio Henao or talented all-rounders such as Australian Richie Porte, the Paris-Nice champion.

    "Normally, putting guys at such a high level in the early season means you're going to pay for it later in the year, that would be the normal case - time will tell in that regard," said Evans.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #667 on: April 02, 2013, 12:11 »
    Portal (Sky) responds to criticism of his rule: "We have no secrets"


    The Team Sky is always a reference in all the races that dispute and never goes unnoticed, especially in the turns. This year, Chris Froome won the Tour of Oman and the Criterium International, and was second in the Tirreno-Adriatico, and Richie Porte won the Paris-Nice. The Australian, with Sergio Luis Henao as second trick, is the leader in the Tour of the Basque Country British all started with the handicap of having two runners less to control the race. Still, the team left its stamp Elgoibar yesterday and two leaders entered the front group.

    Nicolas Portal is the athletic director at the round Basque reveals BiciCiclismo naturally responds to critics doubt their superiority and performance. "We have no secrets, we make our way," he says. Also reveals the intentions of his team in a test that considers "historic".

    Mastering the Sky in the turns is a reality and some do not seem sentarles well that superiority. Faced with criticism, Portal is calm. "We consist. But there are comments runners do not feel something special in the pack. We do the best path, which is ours, as always, we have no secrets. No, "says outright. "Our tactic is easy to understand. We simply good people. The hardest job is to make the most of each corridor and in place. Cyclists are also very happy. And not just a British team, there are people around the world. We will continue our path, "said French director.

    "In the Criterium International, French journalists told me that the team walked too strong. But I said, 'Peraud only went to 15 seconds Porte, is he also going strong?'. There is a big difference, just a few seconds in the two last three kilometers, "he says.

    "I think now the bike is now much cleaner and I think it's real. Everything is normal now. Yes we have a strong team but others as well, and will be harder from now because they are preparing for the Tour, "ditch the matter.

    Porte and Hainaut, "two options"

    Portal assumes weak start a turn as the Basque Country with two runners less. "It's a shame because we have a strong team and we have ambition with Richie and Sergio who was in Colombia 15 days preparing. It is a problem for the low Boswell and Edmondson, one had a knee injury after the Criterium International and the other became ill a few days ago. We had no choice. The only was David Lopez but was concentrated in Tenerife and was a compromise. "

    "It is also the toughest race of the season, not only for the profile but because it is before the Giro and classic and must have a very good level. So with six riders is more difficult to control. But it is a challenge for the team. There are others like Saxo, Euskaltel, Movistar and Garmin have a strong team. Let's see how we play but it sure is going to be almost impossible to control the race, "explained BiciCiclismo .

    Porte, winner of Paris-Nice and the Criterium International second only behind Froome, is the team leader of the British, although Henao is the bullet in the chamber. "We have two options. Richie is probably the most likely is because it is stronger and has more ability in the time trial, Sergio is very good and progresses in the lap in each race. So we want to help the two make a good general. The truth is that Richie has a better chance, but we know the difficulty of the race and have two good runners is better. "

    Anyway, Portal notes that do not start with a big responsibility Basque round. "We have done a very good part of the season and so the team is relaxed in that aspect. And there are more strong teams in each race and change. The pressure is not with us in this case. We will give our best and if we can not win the overall nothing happens. We have won many races before, "he says. "But Basque Country Basque Country. It is a historic race. I live in Pau and I like personally, and also to Richie and Sergio "he says.

    GT - http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias-ficha.asp?id=60700
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #668 on: April 02, 2013, 13:31 »
    I wonder if Nicolas has any knowledge of doping at Abarca.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #669 on: April 02, 2013, 13:40 »
    Probably not doping-related but I've often wondered how Portal went from minor rider to stage race winning DS in such a short time.

    José-Vicente Garcia Acosta was in the Movistar car on Sunday. He retired one season after Portal to take up a DS role but at least they send him to races that Movistar has zero chance of winning.  :rolleye

    Lots of mediocre riders have become renowned DSes - everyone knows that - but in so little time, it's kind of surprising to me.

    None of this amounts to a hill of beans. It just raises a different sort of eyebrow, I suppose.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon / Larry Sarni

    just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #670 on: April 16, 2013, 19:55 »
    http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycling/porte-slams-critics-of-sky-team-20130416-2hyqn.html

    Have not read it in total due to issues with the paper and online access, but guess it fits in this sky thread.

    Sorry if not
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  • Dancing on the Pedals

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #671 on: April 16, 2013, 20:04 »
    Quote
    Australian Richie Porte has hit back at detractors of cycling's dominant Sky team as he prepares for a rare one-day classic start.
    The in-form Tasmanian will be the Sky team leader on Wednesday night (AEST) at La Fleche Wallonne in Belgium, the second of the three Ardennes Classics.
    Porte was leading last month's Criterium International stage race in France, but teammate Chris Froome rode away from him on the last stage to take the title.
    Their tactics prompted more internet discussion of a team that has become a lightning rod for criticism.
     
    Sky's domination has inevitably led to speculation in the post-Armstrong era about how it is achieving success.
    The riders and team management have repeatedly insisted they are a clean team.
    "There was a lot of crap thrown our way at Criterium International but really, it's the oldest trick in the book," Porte said in a post on the cyclingnews website.
    "It's tall poppy syndrome and everybody wants to throw everything they can at Team Sky and question everything about the team.
    "It's getting a bit old now (and) people are going to have to get over it.
    "It's not new but in the twitter age, every Tom, dickhead and Harry's got a voice."


    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycling/porte-slams-critics-of-sky-team-20130416-2hyqn.html#ixzz2QeeWX9U4
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  • « Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 05:48 by just some guy, Reason: removed bits re copyright »
    'Sacrifice and hard work is our only secret' - Alberto Contador
    'Vinokourov...a lord of cycling' - Andrea Guardini
    'As world champion you wear the most beautiful jersey ever for a year. The rainbow stripes have something magical. All great champions have worn them' - Mark Cavendish

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #672 on: April 16, 2013, 20:08 »
    Interestingly enough I recently read an interview with Ian Boswell whom many would believe to certainly be clean and he was very adamant that Sky are clean.
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    The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #673 on: April 16, 2013, 23:31 »
    "many believe to certainly be clean" can be used on any rider in the world who hasnt failed a drugs test.

    I don't quite get what it means for Boswell who is an  extremely young rider still developing.

    You mean to say we are to believe the chances of Boswell being clean are significantly greater than the chances of any other Tom Dick and Harry at that age?

    Id be interested to hear what the reason behind that would be.
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #674 on: April 17, 2013, 00:20 »
    Patrick Jonker is a good example.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #675 on: April 17, 2013, 22:26 »
    "many believe to certainly be clean" can be used on any rider in the world who hasnt failed a drugs test.

    I don't quite get what it means for Boswell who is an  extremely young rider still developing.

    You mean to say we are to believe the chances of Boswell being clean are significantly greater than the chances of any other Tom Dick and Harry at that age?

    Id be interested to hear what the reason behind that would be.
    Well, not based on anything much but generally there seems to be a perception that the young American talents now coming through.. eg.  Phinney, Dombro etc are pretty clean..
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #676 on: April 17, 2013, 22:56 »
    Well, not based on anything much but generally there seems to be a perception that the young American talents now coming through.. eg.  Phinney, Dombro etc are pretty clean..

    Its not based on "anything much"? Dont you  mean its not based on "anything at all".

    Sorry, "people believe x to be clean" is the most overused and most  meaningless argument in doping discussion history

    Even more dumb when applied to an entire nationality. Since when is someones place of birth a determining factor in whether they are clean or not?

    Your comment furthermore implies that since the American talents are clean, there is some nationality which is not? Your perception detector find out which one that is? its those darn Russians isnt it? Isnt it?
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #677 on: April 18, 2013, 00:39 »
    You are perhaps being a bit harsh there Hitch.  I dont think froome is casting aspersions on anyone here.

    A perception is simply how you (either an individual or a whole group of people) see things ... so if someone perceives that a rider or group of riders are clean, that is fine.  It doesnt mean much (and froome acknowledges its not based on anything other than his personal inclination).

    As for grouping young riders of the same nationality together, in some instances that is actually a fair thing.   Many of the young riders are developed in their own country under their own national cycling program.  If that program is 'clean' then the riders have a better chance of being clean than if the development program includes sections which advocate PED's

    That is not a slight against any particular country, just an acknowledgement that some development programs are cleaner than others.

    And in Froome's belief the American program is clean (that is something I might debate ... but still, that's his inclination)


    The fact that Boswell thinks sky are clean ... well that doesnt actually shed any light on things whatsoever for me, and I thought Richie Porte's interview was a huge pile of balls - but that is my perception :D
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #678 on: April 18, 2013, 02:06 »
    I understand we are supposed to be nice here so im trying, but the harsh reality is, an opinion is not an argument. Never was never was never will be. To try and masqerade it as one, like Froome did with the wording "Boswell whom many would believe to certainly be clean", (what is  "certainly" supposed to mean)  designed to give extra credit to boswell's particular opinion, where none is due, is annoying at best and disingenuous, intellectually weak, well i better stop there.

    It was almost the exact same thing uk's semi tabloid daily news programme ITV news at 10 did when during the Lance saga they said cycling is clean because "everyone agrees wiggins is clean". Millar, clearly suffering from the same inability to differentiate an argument from an opinion answers that cycling is clean because  "everyone in the peloton knows Bradley wiggins won the tour clean".

    More importantly,and dangerously,  in the real world they have these moronic things called opinion polls on which policy is formed without any thought to the arguments behind the numbers.

    Its bad enough that the politics is  falling into this trap, but  I am  certainly (and thats how you use that word) not going to stand by and watch  my beloved cycling discussions fall to a point where popularity carries more weight than actual arguments.

    I know some people who think Valverde is clean. flipping thousands if you go to Murcia or the right youtube channel.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #679 on: April 18, 2013, 02:35 »
    I get some of what you are saying Hitch ... it is hard because people want to believe that the cyclists they like and follow are clean.

    But Froome wasnt arguing anything. He was stating his own opinion and perceptions.

    Interestingly enough I recently read an interview with Ian Boswell whom many would believe to certainly be clean and he was very adamant that Sky are clean.

    Many believe Boswell are clean ... well, he isnt wrong about that.  Many do. 

    When you ask him to clarify what that belief is based on, he fully admitted it wasnt based on anything other than his own perceptions.

    What's your beef here ?

    anyway - back to Porte's actual interview -

    Quote
    "There was a lot of crap thrown our way at Criterium International but really, it's the oldest trick in the book," Porte said in a post on the cyclingnews website.

    "It's tall poppy syndrome and everybody wants to throw everything they can at Team Sky and question everything about the team.

    "It's getting a bit old now (and) people are going to have to get over it.

    "It's not new but in the twitter age, every Tom, dickhead and Harry's got a voice."

    seriously, is he learning from Wiggins?     
    They really REALLY need to get some media training as part of their marginal gains. 
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #680 on: April 18, 2013, 02:55 »
    Don't think it was an interview. Think he posted in the comments section

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #681 on: April 18, 2013, 03:08 »
    hmm - you are right ... in "a post on the cyclingnews website"

    still - its not really helping his cause any.  Slagging off the fans because they have questions isnt the way to go. 

    Yes it must be hard for them, as people are questioning their very integrity at every step - but they do have to understand that its because of the history of cycling and what has happened in the past that people have these questions ... its something they will have to learn to live with, adapt to and respond to in a positive way rather than just biting back all the time.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #682 on: April 18, 2013, 04:33 »
    At least Porte isnt on record attacking other riders as dopers and saying that anyone who wins Paris nice should accept that people have a right to be sceptical.
    he'd look like even more of a douche then. Or to be more precise, even more like wiggins
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #683 on: April 18, 2013, 06:20 »
    As an aside

    We discussed this in the chat yesterday, but some may have missed it.

    Brain Smith was kind of giving sky a kicking, 're the classics. Most it seems brought into the kerrison plan. And most of them are just fliped, training was way way too hard.

    1 rider while in camp actually stopped the group from training for a day or so as he said this is way too much.

    Sutton I think stayed at home - or maybe it was haymen , haymen helps the argument as he did something this season at least.

    JTL went back to his old trainer.

    Things are not so rosy.

    What does this mean , smith was saying that not many can take the punishment of wiggo and froome etc

    But going back to the 1st year of sky they were in the stage race section pretty sh*t if I remember correctly then the year after much improved, which could mean the classics squad for next year will be unbeatable.

    It could also mean that the difference is in recovery, both natural andor man made ?

    The issue is now the performance of some of the lesser riders. Sistou yesterday, Porte etc again the 2 or 3rd year under kerrison, but then Lopez calls questions into this theory and then there is Mick, mono, world beater not sick once , off the team sh*t again.

    More questions than answers
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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #684 on: April 18, 2013, 06:45 »
    It's only a problem if you hold the belief that doping at Sky is a team-wide thing with all the management involved on a practical level. When people say "Sky are doping" I presume a lot of the time they are referring specifically to their GT A-Team. That they dominate stage races like the great teams of old does not mean to say that their classics riders are automatically dopers. Likewise that their classics riders are unremarkable tells us nothing about the cleanliness of their stage racers.

    My personal view is that staff like Kerrison have no practical involvement in doping, as Rasmussen said, an "informal" basis :D


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  • Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #685 on: April 18, 2013, 06:48 »
    1 rider while in camp actually stopped the group from training for a day or so as he said this is way too much.

    The most important use for PEDs in sport is training.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #686 on: April 18, 2013, 06:51 »
    Agreed 're classics and A squads is my thinking as well.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #687 on: April 18, 2013, 07:32 »
    The most important use for PEDs in sport is training.

    had this argument with people before saying doping makes it easy , nope they train harder because they recover better 

    It's only a problem if you hold the belief that doping at Sky is a team-wide thing with all the management involved on a practical level. When people say "Sky are doping" I presume a lot of the time they are referring specifically to their GT A-Team. That they dominate stage races like the great teams of old does not mean to say that their classics riders are automatically dopers. Likewise that their classics riders are unremarkable tells us nothing about the cleanliness of their stage racers.

    My personal view is that staff like Kerrison have no practical involvement in doping, as Rasmussen said, an "informal" basis :D




    Interesting idea Kerrison is hired to train and monitor they guys without any knowledge of back ground stuff, he then sees these improvements - thinks he is on a winner, which he is but not quite for the reasons he thinks.

    He comes across as genuine in interviews etc , the classics  guys think flip yes we are on here, but as a group get fatigued and broken.

    G-train would be in the know though, most of his classics mess was being not to be able to stay on his bike.

    if so Brailsford = worse than JB   
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #688 on: April 18, 2013, 07:37 »
    Don't think it was an interview. Think he posted in the comments section
    It was a post in his CN blog.
    If he had posted it as comment to a CN article, he'd been completely and utterly stupid to put himself out there. As it is, he still opened himself up to criticism - he didn't have to write those last sentences. I guess one wants to get stuff said once in a while; but it does sound Wiggins-y and isn't going to endear him to the general public.
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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #689 on: April 18, 2013, 07:41 »
    It's only a problem if you hold the belief that doping at Sky is a team-wide thing with all the management involved on a practical level. When people say "Sky are doping" I presume a lot of the time they are referring specifically to their GT A-Team. That they dominate stage races like the great teams of old does not mean to say that their classics riders are automatically dopers. Likewise that their classics riders are unremarkable tells us nothing about the cleanliness of their stage racers.

    My personal view is that staff like Kerrison have no practical involvement in doping, as Rasmussen said, an "informal" basis :D
    I agree with you that team-wide doping is unlikely and impractical. For me, if you were to create an index of suspicion just for Sky based on the assumption that there is some sort of team programme, you would be looking at Anglos who've been in the set up from the start or even before as part of the UK set up. I.e. Thomas, Stannard, Swift, Kennough, Sutton, Hayman, EBH? The only climbers are Wiggins and Froome.
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