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just some guy

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Hidden Motors
« on: September 04, 2014, 07:44 »
This popped up the other day. No names now this video
link

not sure it shows much. And a spinning tire would move a bike, but it does seem to get away from Ryder :D

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  • « Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 05:54 by just some guy »
    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    Capt_Cavman

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    Looks odd to me. But then I was one of the few who felt the Cancellara motor story had some merit.

    It would be interesting if no-one could come up with a clip where a bike had behaved similarly.
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  • L'arri

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    That did register somewhere in the back of my mind, the rather odd trajectory of the bike, but I guess I forgot and put it down to the moto clipping it.

    Looking at the video, however, the moto clipped the bike after it did a little dance. Indeed that the moto probably wouldn't have clipped it under 'normal' circumstances.

    And that little dance began after Hesjedal had clipped out, at which point there was no more momentum in the bike to keep moving.

    But why would he be using a motor on a clear descent? Forgot to switch it off?
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    barrus

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    You can see that the road slopes down sideways, which might explain the bike sliding like that
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    some people on Twitter say it turns the wrong way around.

    for comparison:



    so what could it be then? Some kind of power brake unit?
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    L'arri

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    You can see that the road slopes down sideways, which might explain the bike sliding like that

    It would but for the fact that the bike is at a complete standstill while Hesjedal is still clipped in. Once he pulls out, the thing starts moving again of its own accord. That's what I find odd.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    That did register somewhere in the back of my mind, the rather odd trajectory of the bike, but I guess I forgot and put it down to the moto clipping it.

    Looking at the video, however, the moto clipped the bike after it did a little dance. Indeed that the moto probably wouldn't have clipped it under 'normal' circumstances.

    And that little dance began after Hesjedal had clipped out, at which point there was no more momentum in the bike to keep moving.

    But why would he be using a motor on a clear descent? Forgot to switch it off?
    A good conspiracy theorist would hypothesise that it was inadvertently turned on in the fall.
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  • just some guy

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    jimmythecuckoo

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    It was definitely odd... I wouldn't mind an engine.
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    Jamsque

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    This is the dumbest doping conspiracy story related to cycling I've heard and that is really saying something.
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  • t-72

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    I posted about this on another forum after Marca put it on the News. I got a very nice reply: Here's a  video showing how spinning momentum of a wheel can turn an office chair.  Applies to bikes as well, last time I checked the laws of physics were also valid for Spain.  :cool

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  • Tuart

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    Now now T-man, don't let physics get in the way of cycling conspiracy.
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    no Motor? Then lets hear what the almighty Popovych had to say about it in his blog:

    Quote
    (gt)

    During dinner, the boys were told that in the peloton the number one topic was the discussion Heshdalya Ryder and his magically fleeing bicycle.

    Anyway, I watched this video a hundred times. And a hundred times not find a single adequate justification for the behavior of the bike. I give 100%, which is abnormal. I fell down a million times, seen as falling other 10 000 000 times. He can not a priori move along this trajectory. He or slips or tumbles. But here the bike stopped, and then the wheel started to spin like a motorcycle when jammed gas. If the slip is large, it slides in one direction, and not axially. If it is a motor, then a descent to use unreasonable, perhaps this "what-t" could jam on impact. But, this is purely my reasoning. My hint refers to fellow journalists who tomorrow may write something like: "In the bike from hitting Ryder Heshdalya jammed motor! About it in his diary wrote la-la-la. "

    But yesterday I looked at a few more times this video and noticed that he had fallen, because the roads really slippery - the village, tractor ride, oil spilled, anything. And plus it's bad, worse than those two, went into the turn. Perhaps even he wheels of the other model, where the tube than the other. Well, in short, he fell and began to slide, and then he stopped and he vyschёlknulas leg and went great. Even if we are talking about the inertia, the large slide, yes, but! not curled. Suppose if it is a motor, it must be in the system, therefore, the pedals and the chain must be twisted. The pedals are in place. The conclusion is that there is not clean - it is 100%, but that "something" if you will, of new technologies, let's call it - the flywheel in the rear hub. Or maybe some kind of a spring-energy accumulator. (It sounds fantastic, but I would not be surprised at anything)

    Yes, I remember how Cancellara lowered all the dogs, but then so did not prove it. During the boom, bicycles selectively checked through the scanner, but found nothing. About Kanchi, I will say one thing, I did not lodge his hand on the Bible, for it is not the all-seeing, but I know what his phenomenal twist pedaling and how it can give gas to Khodarev, so do not assume such accusations against him.
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  • search

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    Professor Dan "explains" it in today's blog in the Irish Times (not available online yet = no link)...

    Quote
    The other topic of conversation in recent days has been the claims about possible motors in bikes. My team-mate Ryder Hesjedal was accused of that by some media because when he crashed earlier in the race, his bike spun around on the ground in what the media said it was a strange way.

    The movement was actually caused by the downhill slope plus the spinning tyre touching the ground, causing the bike to pivot the way it did. We were just laughing about it – the claim was pathetic. That was the initial reaction.

    The motors they talk about – they would make the pedals go round, yet the pedals were completely still. Where was the engine supposed to be? In the hub, which is one centimetre in diameter? Ryder actually took it as a compliment; the idea that he might have used an engine because he was so strong.

    ‘Are you serious?’

    The UCI carries out checks anyway. At the finish on Monday they weighed my bike to make sure it was under the limit and they also checked for an engine. They took the seatpost out and looked inside with a telescopic camera device. I was like, “guys, are you serious?” The bike weighs almost nothing. If there was an engine in there, it would be heavy!

    ...exactly Dan. And why would they need a telescope when everyone knows an engine is big?

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  • hiero

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    Now now T-man, don't let physics get in the way of cycling conspiracy.

    Hehe. Yeah.
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  • Eeyore sez . . .

    search

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    another topic Ferrari talked about in his forum:

    Quote
    (gt)

    The UCI, who knows a lot on' argument, is silent. they have not commented or taken action on clear violations of the regulation such as the chest "faired" Frank Schleck and Tony Martin (latter 'also won a time trial at the world with the' addition of airfoils in the back of the arms).

    The Regulation expressly prohibits modifications of the gauge body. The UCI evidently prefer to keep the' media attention on doping "drug", ignoring the technology.

    [...]

    Cyclists don't want to lose their place in the fantastic world of cycling! So they stay silent, if they know something; or are unbelievers (type subconscious repression) - or most probably are attracted to it and seek to obtain a contact for the latest technologies themself too. Those are increasingly small and in parts of the bike not "advertised" so far. See Hesjedal.

    so he seems to regard it as fact that Hesjedal had an engine in his bike

    http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=forum.thread&id=7089
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  • LukasCPH

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    Ferrari seems to regard it as fact that Hesjedal had an engine in his bike
    He can do power calculations very well, and they are still believable despite (or in fact because) the rest of his reputation.

    But he also likes to hear his own name, and this keeps him talked about.
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    Drummer Boy

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    I posted this in the Paris-Nice thread, and far be it from me to miss an opportunity to further this most-awesome discussion, so here it is again.

    https://twitter.com/inrng/status/577035389388660736


    But was there every any follow-up on this by  L'Equipe or any of the "targeted" individuals? Thirteen bikes seems like a lot. Excessive even, one might say.

    I mean, this is either the flat-out stupidest thing of all time, or someone, somewhere in the peloton has actually tried to modify their bike in a nefarious way, and now the chase is on.


    I would say the  UCI is simply embarrassing themselves with all of this, if it weren't for the following excerpt from the CIRC report [emphasis mine].

    Quote
    Page 86
    Technical Cheating

    The Commission was told of varying efforts to cheat the technical rules, including using motors in frames. This particular issue was taken seriously, especially by top riders, and was not dismissed as being isolated.

    The Commission was told that funding streams to examine such allegations from regulatory, technical and investigative perspectives are limited and even being reduced. This is not ideal given technical cheating may be emerging as a more significant avenue for illicit gains than ever before.

    If that's not a WTF moment, then I don't know what is.

    Could there really be some substance behind these suspicions?  :o  :(  :S


    I've yet to post my own summary of the CIRC report, but this was certainly one of the highlighted points for me. Has the above passage gained any traction online yet?
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  • neppe

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    From Martins Irish Times blog, quoted by Search, September 10, 2014, 07:47:

    Quote
    The UCI carries out checks anyway. At the finish on Monday they weighed my bike to make sure it was under the limit and they also checked for an engine.

    There is an upper weight limit for the bikes? I thought there was a minimum limit of 6,8 kg.
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  • search

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    But he also likes to hear his own name, and this keeps him talked about.

    yes, but this was written in Italian, in his Forum only, he did not publish a blog post about it as he sometimes does. More something he has written between the lines, and I didn't see it being picked up elsewhere.

    And bike checks are done in every (WT) race as far as I know, Drummer Boy. It also was mentioned in the Tirreno Adriatico stage communiquees (this is the one handed out before the final ITT):

    Quote
    Concern: Bike checks during TIRRENO-ADRIATICO.

    In the context of the 7th stage of 17 March 2015, an optional pre-check of the bikes will be organised in the morning from 11:30 at the Starting Area for those who are interested. The final checks will take place at the start of the race and will begin at 13:25.

    A technical commissaire specially trained is appointed for the equipment checks during all major events. He may be assisted by a member of the UCI Equipment Unit to guaranty the proper assembly of the control jig. The mechanics of three teams have been designated to verify and approve the jig before starting the checks. Those three teams are: MOVISTAR, TEAM SKY and LOTTO SOUDAL. The mechanics shall be present at 11:15. The riders taller than 190 cm wishing to place their handlebar extensions beyond 80 cm (with a maximum of 85 cm) will have to present themselves during the pre-checks at the disposal of the commissaries, if their name is not yet registered on the official list of very tall riders. Otherwise, unannounced controls to check the approval of frames and forks, the weight of the bikes and if there are motors hidden within the frame may be conducted at the end of the race / at the end of some stages. The teams will be informed that the checks will take place when the head of the race will arrive between two and three kilometres from the finish line.

    Could there really be some substance behind these suspicions?  :o  :(  :S

    di Luca also said it's fairly common
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  • Drummer Boy

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    di Luca also said it's fairly common

    "Fairly" common? That would elevate the topic to a magnitude far beyond anything I've seen suggested by anyone else.

    Di Luca won't be scoring any credibility points with such innuendo (not that he would likely care in the least, one way or the other).
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  • search

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    it was from memory only, this is what he said actually:

    Quote
    What is the story of the bike with the engine? Is it possible?
    "Of course, I believe it is possible."

    What? Explain.
    "I think that it is possible because there was too much of a difference. Doping can not give you the difference."

    Have you ever seen a bike with the engine?

    "I know how it is done. They were invented I believe 5/6 years ago, you can insert them into the bike, so they are very small. May give 150 watts of power."

    And nobody notices? There were no controls?
    "Not before anyone knew about it. Only when this rumor of a motor started."

    http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=2448.msg139862#msg139862
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  • just some guy

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    "Fairly" common? That would elevate the topic to a magnitude far beyond anything I've seen suggested by anyone else.

    Di Luca won't be scoring any credibility points with such innuendo (not that he would likely care in the least, one way or the other).

    as an interesting aside Di Luca evidence when trying to get shorter bans has lead to more doping busts and helped to clean up cycling than any other person, weird and not common known fact 

    USADA as an example Ground zero not that guys fridge and not Landis  but Di Luca without him no USADA report they guys Fridge and Landis are white noise
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  • LukasCPH

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    There is an upper weight limit for the bikes? I thought there was a minimum limit of 6,8 kg.
    No. Only the 6.8 km minimum. You could ride with a 20-kg bike if you wanted.
    I think he simply mistyped.
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  • AG

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    USADA as an example Ground zero not that guys fridge and not Landis  but Di Luca without him no USADA report they guys Fridge and Landis are white noise

    English please??????     :D
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  • just some guy

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    English please??????     :D

    what ?  that make sense ??

    ok History

    The guys fridge  - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/sports/cycling/inquiry-into-kayle-leogrande-led-to-lance-armstrongs-eventual-fall.html?_r=0

    Landis/kimmage interview - http://nyvelocity.com/articles/interviews/landiskimmage/

    these 2 things are named often as ground zero for USADA investigation starting and gaining traction in USPS

    But Di Luca oil for Drugs oil for drugs , CERA CERA investigations he gave evidence IN which Ferrari and they way he worked was detailed , these got him less doping ban length, and allowed USADA to start and do it´s investigation

    without Di Luca it may not have happened

    Landis and Kayle would not have changed a lot

    Landis cetainly showed WADA that they were losing the anti doping battle much worse than they thought
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    I posted this in the Paris-Nice thread, and far be it from me to miss an opportunity to further this most-awesome discussion, so here it is again.

    https://twitter.com/inrng/status/577035389388660736


    But was there every any follow-up on this by  L'Equipe or any of the "targeted" individuals? Thirteen bikes seems like a lot. Excessive even, one might say.

    I mean, this is either the flat-out stupidest thing of all time, or someone, somewhere in the peloton has actually tried to modify their bike in a nefarious way, and now the chase is on.


    I would say the  UCI is simply embarrassing themselves with all of this, if it weren't for the following excerpt from the CIRC report [emphasis mine].

    If that's not a WTF moment, then I don't know what is.

    Could there really be some substance behind these suspicions?  :o  :(  :S


    I've yet to post my own summary of the CIRC report, but this was certainly one of the highlighted points for me. Has the above passage gained any traction online yet?
    For me, there are a number of things that give this story plausibility:

    1 - It is possible. Clearly and totally, don't let anybody claim it isn't. The only thing that might prohibit using it is cost, but if it is used sparingly for your star rider, then it can't be that big a cost in the scheme of things.

    2. If it is possible, the belief that riders won't do it? They'll do anything, even set alarm clocks so they don't die overnight, their blood's so thick. What moral boundary would stop them from cheating in this, risk free, way?

    3 - The main unspoken accusation was against Cancellara. He was going away from fields at will with the best of the rest simply unable to hold his wheel. This was accompanied by clearly premeditated bike changes. Since the UCI publicly declared it was going to scan bikes for engines, Cancellara's performances returned to being simply very very good.

    4 - The UCI clearly believe that either it is happening, or that it would happen if they didn't test for it. While it is fun to assume they're all just a bunch of ignorant fools and incompetents, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.
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  • search

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    3 - The main unspoken accusation was against Cancellara. He was going away from fields at will with the best of the rest simply unable to hold his wheel. This was accompanied by clearly premeditated bike changes. Since the UCI publicly declared it was going to scan bikes for engines, Cancellara's performances returned to being simply very very good.

    even Popovych - his teammate for more than three years now - said he would not "put his hand on the bible" for Cancellara.

    and laughable whitewashing like "an engine would be too big and heavy to put it into the bike" or "an engine would make too much noise to get away with it" usually are a good indicator that something is fishy there...
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    The other interesting thing about Cancellara but far below what could even be called anecdotal evidence is: there was an interview which I can't now find where Fabs was speaking about Bjarne Riis and saying what an amazing guy he was and how he kept coming up with all these mad ideas. And it struck me later that maybe one of these 'mad ideas' was motorised assistance. But as I say, just a passing observation, not evidence of anything.
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