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Re: Hidden Motors
« Reply #120 on: June 05, 2015, 08:01 »
This guy also started the Pantani was murdered story fwiw.

no, he did not
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    jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #121 on: June 05, 2015, 08:45 »
    I think for this discussion to get anywhere fast we need to take the riders and teams out (therefore removing emotion) and have a look at what we do know.

    A few accusations and Youtube clips prove nothing and that may be why the UCI are trying to get to the bottom of it without too much fuss.

    I hope they don't find anything, because if they do then the fallout isn't worth considering.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #122 on: June 05, 2015, 08:45 »
    no, he did not
    did he not? he was one of the main guys behind the story then? I did not follow it
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #123 on: June 05, 2015, 09:00 »
    yeah, Brunel has written a book about Pantani, including the murder story, but as far as I know, the initial claims came out of Italy.
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  • lancasterke

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #124 on: June 05, 2015, 11:34 »
    For riders I think 4 years or 2 years or whatever is a fine penalty. Where I see the diference is that team staff will by definition know, as the mechanics take care of the bikes, as such I feel it should be viewed as organised doping by the team, and the team ought to be closed down with bans to the staff a result of it as well.

    the reason I think pros aren't using motors, is that by definition the teams have to be in on it, there's no plausible deniability.
    no sponsor stays with a team riding motor bikes.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #125 on: June 05, 2015, 11:58 »
    the reason I think pros aren't using motors, is that by definition the teams have to be in on it, there's no plausible deniability.
    no sponsor stays with a team riding motor bikes.
    I think it possible that the teams are not in on it. I think it likely that in the Contador hypothesis they would have to be, BUT not to the extent they couldn't throw all involved under a bus and claim innocence.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #126 on: June 05, 2015, 12:31 »
    no sponsor stays with a team riding motor bikes.
    Unless the sponsor also funds a motorbike team ... :D


    ;)
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    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #127 on: June 06, 2015, 15:26 »
    Unless the sponsor also funds a motorbike team ...

    I hear they're going to be checking those bikes for hidden pedals.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #128 on: June 14, 2015, 15:23 »
    Quote
    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Ditto.

    the reason I think pros aren't using motors, is that by definition the teams have to be in on it, there's no plausible deniability.
    no sponsor stays with a team riding motor bikes.

    Concur.

    I think it possible that the teams are not in on it. I think it likely that in the Contador hypothesis they would have to be, BUT not to the extent they couldn't throw all involved under a bus and claim innocence.

    Simply not possible. At a minimum the mechanic would have to be involved, and if one mechanic were involved, then all the mechanics on that team would likely know, not to mention the DS or whomever, driving the support vehicle.

    On top of all this, imo, the whole concept is still science fiction. It is simply not practical. I don't know if we have any EE's, but if we do, please speak up and either validate or shoot me down.

    Given the limits of motor size and BATTERY supply, what can you get, maybe an extra 10 watts for 15 minutes? Max? Maybe 40 watts for 5 minutes? What good is that on a 200+ K day?  And, I think the likely output would be even less than what I've just posited.

    Not much good without some sort of power recapture.  Wait a sec - unless they are going to recapture the cyclist's energy at the bottom bracket, they have to either have a hub unit or a wheel driven unit - just like lighting generators. Who's going to hide that?  Even hi-dollar lighting generating units there are not that small! Ok, so they figure out how to keep the motor engaged and use it to recapture energy. Right?And, WHY would anyone consider taking back from the cyclist the same energy they've just given them? With consequent efficiency loss, no less.

    Ok, somebody sez, you give on the uphill and take on the downhill. I say "Phuh". Give me a break. How much time is this guy going to peddle while screaming down a descent? They would have to output at least as much energy as they took to get the battery back up - likely somewhat more due to battery inefficiency.

    But let's say that somebody is willing to do all that - get the mechanic involved - take a tiny little input of aid at a moment when you need peak output - give it back when you are on low output. Measure that against the risk of getting caught - and that risk would be high - much higher than dopage - since the motor is THERE at all times - it doesn't disappear.

    Afaic, the whole concept is rubbish. Cycling science fiction. Fun to read about. Like Q in the 007 novels.
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    lumpyoldgit

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #129 on: June 14, 2015, 19:29 »
    First post.  Not a cyclist anymore but drawn here following the cesspit that is my favourite sport, athletics...

    I'm not an EE but trained in mech eng and then ID.  I don't claim to be fully conversant with lithium technology and battery power supplies, but I do get to package these things fairly regularly in a funky shell.

    Here's a thought.  I'm tapping this out on a chunky Dell laptop on battery power. The battery pack is about twice the size of a packet of cigarettes, weighs 500g including casing.  The pack is rated at 97Wh (97 watts for an hour). 

    I wonder how easy it is to shave a few hundred grams here and there to hide this and a brushless motor in a frame..? Also, what happens to the power output if I decide that I don't need the batteries to last so long and I am willing to take risks with over-discharge and not bothering too much about thermal management...

    Power densities of lithium run up to 250Wh /kg  (edit - was a bit high)

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  • « Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 20:18 by lumpyoldgit »

    hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #130 on: June 15, 2015, 03:32 »
    First post.  Not a cyclist anymore but drawn here following the cesspit that is my favourite sport, athletics...

    I'm not an EE but trained in mech eng and then ID.  I don't claim to be fully conversant with lithium technology and battery power supplies, but I do get to package these things fairly regularly in a funky shell.

    Here's a thought.  I'm tapping this out on a chunky Dell laptop on battery power. The battery pack is about twice the size of a packet of cigarettes, weighs 500g including casing.  The pack is rated at 97Wh (97 watts for an hour). 

    I wonder how easy it is to shave a few hundred grams here and there to hide this and a brushless motor in a frame..? Also, what happens to the power output if I decide that I don't need the batteries to last so long and I am willing to take risks with over-discharge and not bothering too much about thermal management...

    Power densities of lithium run up to 250Wh /kg  (edit - was a bit high)

    Well then, welcome!  I'm perfectly happy to have my curmudgeonliness countered - at least this time. Don't try it when we get into a discussion on helmets!  :D   

    Laptop batteries ~ about the size of 2 packs of cigs ~ yep ~ I think that is pretty typical of the breed. Better power output than I would have thought. But battery power output does not translate directly into power input to the drive transmission of the cyclist.

    But let me state this, to get it out of the way - I have no problem with the concept of building small motors and battery systems that can be hidden in the parts of a bicycle.

    And now let me put forward one of the reasons I have massive doubt that this is a practical thing in the peloton. For the past 3-4 years, I have taken a great interest in remotely piloted aerial vehicles. Something you might know as a drone. They have a fantastic future and we will be seeing many uses of these things - for instance - in a manner dear to us - to replace both the camera/motorcycle and the helicopter for filming our bike races.

    Anyway, to make a long story short - they have a severe time limitation. Small and light means short flight time. Period. No way around these physics. And, this is in a field where we have literally thousands of creative, bleeding-edge, physics-type and mechanical-engineering-type minds at work every day! With passion! But they all have to face the physics, and that has no elasticity.

    So, I see the short flight times available from the best of these machines, and that makes me massively skeptical that any significant power addition could be had for a cyclist (inside the size and weight limits of current technology and assuming the motor and power must be hidden).

    I will grant you, I do not KNOW this - I do not personally know enough of the engineering side to say anything definitively.

    BTW, Search quoted, and gave a screen shot, of an article in Gazzetta (apr 29, 2015) - but I can not find that article online - and I can not get google to translate a photo! So, if anyone can provide a link to the original text of the article online - I would be grateful.

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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #131 on: June 15, 2015, 03:39 »
    Gazzetta has a big feature about it today, quoting insiders in the bike industry, and the guy who invented this technology 17 years ago. They say it's used both in pro and in amateur ranks. The newest generation of engines can generate up to 500 watts and cost 20000 EUR, versions for amateurs start at 1200 EUR

    Search - I saw the photo you provide of the Gazzetta front page - but I can't read it and I can't get google to translate a photo. Would you mind terribly if I asked you to find a link to a text version? I can't find it on the Gazzetta site - prob because I don't read Italian.

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  • AG

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #132 on: June 15, 2015, 07:19 »
    given the amount of money to be made, I do not doubt that motors and batteries of this size exist.

    As for the limitations - yes it isnt going to completely power a 5 hr ride that is for certain.  But a motor/battery that gives an extra 60 watts for the last 20 minutes of a ride .... or even for the middle 30 minutes ... is going to make a huge difference to some of these riders.

    it certainly would have made the difference for TJVG between winning the Dauphine and not.  He actually only needed an extra helping hand for 2.5km ...


    as for the practicalities - getting a mechanic to do it - to be honest, I dont see why not.  Riders have bought their own mechanics with them before.  Just like riders get soigners or moto drivers or masseurs or physios or doctors to help them dope, they could feasibly make arrangements with a mechanic.

    As for the weight - they make these bikes and componants lighter and lighter all the time.  The frames are super, super light - and they currently add many componants that are not the lightest available in order to ensure that they meet the minimum weight requirements.    Adding lighter components wouldnt be that much of an issue.


    It just comes down to whether or not a rider with that much power (to bring his own mechanic or to afford to pay one already there) or with a team that is willing to look the other way enough to win
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  • search

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #133 on: June 15, 2015, 19:39 »
    Search - I saw the photo you provide of the Gazzetta front page - but I can't read it and I can't get google to translate a photo. Would you mind terribly if I asked you to find a link to a text version? I can't find it on the Gazzetta site - prob because I don't read Italian.

    yeah, here is a google translated version:

    Quote
    (gt)

    USE THE STARTER? 1 MILLION fine, 6 MONTHS of DISQUALIFICATION

    The mystery is in the bike


    Turn. Turn all right and not the chatter. Release from 30 to 500 Watts. Are electric scooters for racing bicycles. The Uci, the world federciclo on boost COFCO (independent Commission for reform of cycling), begin to take seriously the problem of doping, so that a current season has changed the rules. Now, in part 12 «discipline and procedures», has introduced a new paragraph 12.1.013.bis «Fraud» technology. The penalties for the runner are the exclusion order, the disqualification for a minimum period of 6 months, a fine by 19.265 to 192.230 euro. Penalty tougher for the team: from 96.135 to 963.160 euros, one million Swiss francs. To find them, abandoned the scanner because of excessive costs (60 thousand euros per rental), you will use the probes. «Can also do a bike parts, are not so much. also because they are often not using bikes in the finale, ' says one of the greatest experts in the industry.

     The BLITZ to the Paris-Nice, on two bikes per team, and the Milan-San Remo, on 37 between race and escort of Trek, Etixx, Astana and Tinkoff, Commissioners have used Uci probes to search for just the device. The Classic, and what is not, to drive a magistrate also operations of Imperia and six police. "Luck was that did not control the media ', our source reveals. But what happened that evening, upon arrival? Certainly there were animated discussions between team managers and Commissioners. So someone said, "can control all the bike they want, but they have no right to get on our vehicles." Of bicycles rigged began to speak in 2010, when Fabian Cancellara was accused by many of having used the scooter to Flanders and Roubaix. Remember the terrifying stretch on the Grammont and plain to take wheel Boonen? But those are not the only suspects episodes. Daniel Martin, Ireland, Garmin fell strangely on the last curve of the Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 2014 but the most resounding concerned the Canadian Ryder Hesjedal, his teammate, in the 7th stage of the Vuelta last year. Remember how turned his bike after the fall?

    NOT ONLY the pros ' but how are and how they work scooters? There are very powerful, reaching 500 Watts. Use them people who wants to have fun and do less fatigue, but also Princes and sheiks. Not the pros. A well equipped bike can cost even 20,000 euros. The pro ' smaller engines are of lesser power, from 30 to 70 watts. May seem little, but are a lot, a lot. To a climber of 60-65 pounds a power increase from 0.45 to over 1 watt/kg. The difference, however, is not power, but the silence. However they use already in so many, even in the granfondo. In Italy in recent years were sold 1.between 200 and kit lovers I often see that in the first 5-10 there are 6 riders who use it. Scooters are the new epo. The system that revolves around sometimes is occult. It happens that people of one meter and sixty buy frames that are good to people of a meter and eighty. Clearly that bike is not for them, "continues our interlocutor.

    START The engine ignition can be made with three different systems. Almost no one uses the button, however microscopic and tucked away. A popular system by 2011 is linked to the heart rate monitor. You map to the computer to which heart rate start: reached this level, under lights goes out. The third system, the most innovative, is linked to Bluetooth. The motor can be switched on at a distance, for example by flagship. «With a sort of kers batteries last for 4-5 hours also. Even the weight is a problem. «To make them even lighter using plastic bevel gear, to a pro ' does not count the duration. A total of 200-300 grams weigh. What you want them to be for so often read that Bikes need to be weighted down to fit in the regulations?».

    The HIDING PLACES there are those who say are hidden in the vertical tube, others in oblique or bracket. It comes to wheel hubs. «You can do everything, the possibilities are immense, from science fiction. I am convinced that many companies have built frames with large tubes just to be able to accommodate the engine. " Another way, which this time involves the chassis, would be to a room inside the tubes to the casing. The probe, at the time of the audit, would drop in the pipes ' led ', without finding the obstacle.

    BIOLOGICAL PASSPORT Admitted that they are not traceable, how can you fight? There is a fairly simple system. In the biological passport would also enter the performance data that emerge from the threshold test. Then you do testing during races. In the lowlands the calculation isn't easy, uphill instead formulas work to perfection. Physics is physics, not a matter of believe it or not. For example, if an athlete has 420 watt tests, cannot climb a mountain at 430-440. Otherwise it has the engine. If nothing is done, we will see the MotoGP races». The creator of scooters was a Hungarian engineer, Istvan Varjas, who patented the first 17 years ago and put them on the market 8-9 years later. Not to copy and not to reveal their trade secrets, bought the components from different companies. Now, however, the production is broader and involves companies from German and Austrian models.

    EVEN the WHEELS technological innovations also concern the wheels, especially those in high profile carbon. There are those who practice of t in the circle and passes within a special thread. They say that this practice, remain prohibited because editing a component which has been type-approved, serve to diminish the "hertz", i.e. reduce that effect «noise» that studies would act negatively on the aerodynamics.

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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #134 on: June 15, 2015, 20:13 »
    . . . Riders have bought their own mechanics with them before.   . . .

    What's the going rate for a mechanic? Can I get one cheaper from Amazon?  :lol

    All the things you say I am in agreement with, and have no problem with. Except the watts added to the cyclist's effort. I'm thinking, and I based my "rubbish" comment on, my belief that you have quite overstated the possible measured benefit of such a motor.

    These is going to be an efficiency loss between the battery power draw and the motor's measured output. And then, here is a physics / engineering question - does the motor's wattage output = the number of watts the motor adds to the cyclist's watts output? Maybe a better way to put it would be to ask how many watts of battery draw would it take this system to add 20 watts to the cyclist's measured output?

    I have little problem with weight issues, either, given exactly the conditions you stated - pro mechanics are now adding heavier components to keep the weight up to minimum UCI specs. So, I recognize that it is possible the weight issue could be a complete wash (i.e. insignificant to the rider).

    I've been basing my thinking, like I said, on what I discovered on starting to work with drones. Like for instance, this little puppy:  http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=39435

    Also note that in a real application, that motor gets the craft about 10 minutes of flight time. See: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1991455

    That is just an ez example I found - but it is, afaik, pretty typical.

    The wattage that produces would not be what it put into a cyclist's wattage power rating. For one, that little motor produces that wattage at a very high rpm. A cycle pusher would need much lower rpm, and would need a much higher torque - but all that may be doable - and it may just be a distraction - idk.

    I may end up talking myself into reversing my position, but we sure need some more real data. Not another rumor being spread on Twitter by some twit who knows even less physics and motor engineering than I do! Like Frankie Andreu's tweet. Don't get me wrong - I  :Heart: Frankie! But (!) as a cyclist (esp for the 7/11 years), and a cycling announcer. And, as a cycling announcer he sure has his P&P moments, I think you will agree.

    Anyway, cheers, y'all! I got to get busy here.

    BTW - I may change my opinion sooner, rather than later. Thank you Search, for providing a translation. That allows me to search for more results. And getting some solid hits. I am adding this note because I was writing this post at the same time Search was posting the article. Ships in the night, posts in the ether.

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  • « Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 20:27 by hiero »

    hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #135 on: June 15, 2015, 21:28 »
    Oh, poopies. I reverse my opinion. Reluctantly, but I have to. For all of this coming to my attention via 3-rd hand rumors over the past couple of years, examples have apparently been available for some time.

    The comments on an Autoblog clip (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/21/want-a-bicycle-with-an-invisible-electric-motor-and-a-top-spee/) got me a link to this youtube vid; which uses a recording of an RAI tv news bit (supposedly) showing a motorized bicycle.

    Of course, the RAI program alone still leaves me skeptical - remembering too many journalists in recent memory having built hoaxes and/or fictitious stories - or repeating irresponsible claims. We have no output ratings or verified demonstrations - and I'm thinking MythBusters Time in the back of my mind.

    But, from Velonation, (2010!)
    Quote
    . . .Austrian company Gruber Assist introduced a similar motor at the 2008 Eurobike show . . .
      http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4653/Motorised-bike-investigation-continues-YouTube-author-heard.aspx
     links to http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/unternehmen/index.php

    So now we have two mfr's. I can disregard the claims of one inventor/mfr fairly easily, but 2? Much harder.

    BikeMag Hungary had an article on a test ride in 2014:
    http://bikemag.hu/magazin/hirek/kiprobaltuk-a-super-e-bike-ot-hesjedal-nem-ilyet-hajtott-de

    Now, I still have some skepticism about duration and power claims. I can follow some of the RAI vid clip, but a lot of that is because I can do well with visual context provided. I don't really understand what is being said. And Google translate does a very poor job with Hungarian. The translation is often almost nonsensical. More like barabajagal and slithy toves than rational English. <sigh>

    Still, the Velonation article tells us that Gruber Assist claims 100w for 90 minutes. And, since Gruber Assist are professional enough a business to have a presence online (linked above), one could assume they must have some backup for that. Even if that is the most optimistic figure, half that output would be a significant number.

    That was what Search's translation gave me. I searched on Istvan Varjas.

    Another translation of the article can be found here: http://computerstechnos.blogspot.com/2015/04/uses-scooter-1-million-fine-6-months.html
    credited to Claudio Ghisalberti. At points comparing the two translations can be helpful to understand the original meaning, although I don't think it is of great consequence. But I thought others might be interested.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #136 on: June 16, 2015, 12:42 »
    Now that we have revealed relatively solid sources countering my objections to the practicality of motorization, that leaves the Cancellara and Hesjedal finger-pointing going on. Which is marginally OT here - but I will STILL say innocent in both cases - imo - and I'll fill in some detail in the Hesjedal thread where we were covering that.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #137 on: June 16, 2015, 15:37 »
    I think what could be useful to happen is for the UCI to authorize a "ringer" test. Get an independent team to pick some riders willing to participate. On various teams, said teams and riders not known to the rest of officialdom. Get some motors into some races, and see if they get caught. If they don't, then the UCI knows they need to step up their protocol. I think only two people on the team would be on the "in" - the rider and one mechanic. If anybody else on the team finds out - they're blown. (Which is what we want, actually.)

    On 2nd thot, maybe one of the media presences would like to do a little "dirty experiment" reporting - and see if they can get a motor and a rider in a race without getting caught. Except reveal it before the race finish? Likely pee off the other riders until you explained yourself - unless you announced beforehand you were going to attempt to make this happen. Could be tricky making it happen.
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  • lumpyoldgit

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #138 on: June 16, 2015, 22:38 »
    We did some tests last year on a motor from (I think) hobbyking that was a little bit smaller than a UK spec soft drink can.  The motor was rated at something obscene like 5KW..!   :o We ran it for a while at about 2.5KW off several sets of the cuboid cell packs identified earlier in the thread and totally wrecked it after a short while.  The batteries became a little too hot and swelled, so were left outside to cool down or burn up, whichever came first (they cooled).

    I'm constantly surprised by what's now possible from Li-Ion and brushless motors.

    I'd better point out that these tests had nothing to do with cycling.



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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #139 on: June 16, 2015, 22:49 »
    I think what could be useful to happen is for the UCI to authorize a "ringer" test. Get an independent team to pick some riders willing to participate. On various teams, said teams and riders not known to the rest of officialdom. Get some motors into some races, and see if they get caught. If they don't, then the UCI knows they need to step up their protocol. I think only two people on the team would be on the "in" - the rider and one mechanic. If anybody else on the team finds out - they're blown. (Which is what we want, actually.)

    On 2nd thot, maybe one of the media presences would like to do a little "dirty experiment" reporting - and see if they can get a motor and a rider in a race without getting caught. Except reveal it before the race finish? Likely pee off the other riders until you explained yourself - unless you announced beforehand you were going to attempt to make this happen. Could be tricky making it happen.

    Good idea. Maybe Cancellara and Hesjedal so it won't look suspicious. Until one of them swaps a bike for the second time in a race off camera, or one crashes on a corner of a mountain stage.
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  • AG

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #140 on: June 17, 2015, 00:42 »
    I cant see a test like that ever happening.

    it would have to be a race set up for the purpose ... as everyone else in the race would be completely peeed


    and what would it prove?    you can test the science, and test the extra power on a solo or group ride without it needing to be in race conditions.


    As for Cancellara and Hesjedal - I do think the case against each of them was pretty (well, extremely) weak.  While I certainly believe that the technology - and the will to use it - exists, I am not yet ready to point fingers at who might be likely to use it
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #141 on: June 17, 2015, 01:41 »
    On 2nd thot, maybe one of the media presences would like to do a little "dirty experiment" reporting - and see if they can get a motor and a rider in a race without getting caught.
    Did you read the previous page of this thread?

    http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=6570.0;message=197283
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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #142 on: June 17, 2015, 03:15 »
    Did you read the previous page of this thread?

    http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=6570.0;message=197283

    Uh, TLDR? I skimmed a bunch of it - which also means I could have missed stuff. I will dutifully check out that link.

    Btw - I know it is technically bad manners not to read the WHOLE thread b4 responding - but once they get past the vicinity of 3 pages to catch up? TLDR takes over. I just don't have enough time in each day!
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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #143 on: June 17, 2015, 03:24 »
    Did you read the previous page of this thread?

    http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=6570.0;message=197283

    Wow. That looks like a pretty definitive "Mythbusters" type test! Problem is, I don't even get Dutch with visual context. I can understand what is happening by the visual sequence, tho.

    Ok, so I am behind the curve more often lately than I'd like. But thanks for re-pointing to that nicely done vid.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #144 on: June 17, 2015, 04:18 »
    I cant see a test like that ever happening.

    it would have to be a race set up for the purpose ... as everyone else in the race would be completely peeed


    and what would it prove?    you can test the science, and test the extra power on a solo or group ride without it needing to be in race conditions.


    As for Cancellara and Hesjedal - I do think the case against each of them was pretty (well, extremely) weak.  While I certainly believe that the technology - and the will to use it - exists, I am not yet ready to point fingers at who might be likely to use it

    Actually, I was thinking of testing the testers. Like the "authorities" did recently in the US with the air travel screening group. They had a team that hit a BUNCH of flights trying to get bomb parts (pseudo, not really real, but almost) and guns on commercial flights. The catch rate was practically non-existent. Afaic, at this point, the science and availability of the tech is proven, along with a few more coffin nails than necessary to hold the argument down.

    So, I got hit over the head with more refutation than I expected on the sci-fi line. No problem, I can change my POV. And it is all very interesting along the "Wow, wouldya lookit that!" line.

    Having resolved the "is it possible and practical" argument, the next argument (in my mind) is to find out if the deceit will be detected. This is important. The whole reason the EPO thing got out of hand was because it was undetectable. In this case, if you have the "doped" bicycle in hand, detection should be 100%. There is no excuse for it to be otherwise. Ultrasound and xray equipment are only RELATIVELY expensive - and in this context, I think they are relatively cheap. In addition, the batteries for small applications like this generate intense heat, and infrared photog is now massively cheap.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #145 on: June 17, 2015, 04:21 »
    . . .

    when was the last time a smoke signal didn't become a blazing inferno ?

    Yesterday. Sorry, just had to add that. Between Lancey boy, Bernie Madoff, and the Ars Techica hacker of the day (http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/06/new-exploit-turns-samsung-galaxy-phones-into-remote-bugging-devices/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+arstechnica%2Ftechnology-lab+%28Ars+Technica%3A+Technology+Lab%29), I think we have become fearful. So much fearful that we are finding bogeymen under the bed.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #146 on: June 18, 2015, 00:23 »
    BTW - is it just me - or did anyone else notice that these motors themselves - the real ones that exist - have gotten almost no notice in the English language cycling outlets? Outside of that 2010 VeloNation small article, I don't recall seeing ANYTHING that said "these are real and exist today".

    I saw a couple of posters say something like that - but not with links or proof. Thus, when I entered this thread a few days ago, I was still of the opinion that this was all speculative! I simply had no idea that companies had already solved the technical issues. The motors I've seen advertised are still of the noticeably large variety.

    Anyway, if we can get a volunteer to provide us a transcript of that Dutch vid linked just above, I will see what I can do to get a version with subtitles inserted.

    Maybe I will also go to Fiverr and see if I can find a Hungarian-English translator to translate that .hu article.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #147 on: June 18, 2015, 02:06 »
    I don't recall seeing ANYTHING that said "these are real and exist today".

    Quote
    I know that motors exist, I’ve ridden a bike with one and I’ve met the inventor and talked about it. If people think they don’t exist, they’re fooling themselves.

    >>>LINK<<<

     ;)

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  • just some guy

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    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    hiero

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #149 on: July 04, 2015, 18:46 »
    > . . .
     ;)



    BANG! Ouch!

    That was the sound of me getting hit by Conor McGregor again. Ok, ok, I apologize if that was needed!  I do think it shouldn't be too much to ask to forgive me for missing a couple of minor bits in the news. But no problem! I bang my head 3 times and kowtow 3 times as I back out of the room respectfully. Oy.

    http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycling/tour-de-france/tour-de-france-2015-fears-cheats-have-a-new-weapon--mechanical-doping-20150701-gi33nd.html

    Yeah - I saw that! Looks like it is getting more attention now on English language outlets.

    Well hey, at least we can say something good about the UCI - they must be taking things seriously, since they've run tests to check for motors!  Half the response one hears is "why are they wasting their time?" - but apparently they aren't.
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