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Re: Hidden Motors
« Reply #150 on: July 14, 2015, 21:55 »
First off not sure where to put it, here or in the CF thread, or a new thread (As if VR needed another CF/Sky thread), I chose here as some of my points apply to the possibility of hidden engines, I will however following the stolen or leaked CF data, which I first of has not seen, but have seen summaries of, will use this, and the conclusions people draw as a case.

First off I think it is fair to first off establish that the people that chase CF in whatever imaginable way are propagandist. I'm not saying that they are wrong, or that what they present is untrue - Properganda is often described as lies, it is not, it is truth, but a very limited aspect of the truth. What I am saying and what ultimately makes their work propaganda is the way they construct their case. They work by the assumption CF is doping. After this they look to find anything that supports their claim, the central point propaganda asking what is my conclusion and what supports this conclusion? which stands in sharp contradiction to the scientific process of examining and then concluding.

A way that this propaganda is seen is the evidence presented. High wattage (1000w) is presented as an evidence of doping, and later an acceleration with little to no wattage increase is also mentioned, along with low heart rate. The later would imply mechanical assistance (And that this would not be recorded on the SRM) and that CF was actually a donkey. So this then means that we assuming the latter knows that CF's mechanical assistance does not register on the SRM, in which case the former high wattage of 1000 w is strange, since this would then be done by CF himself, 1000w doesn't sound like donkey to me. Ultimately these numbers are widely inconsistent and while one suggest doping one way another suggest a whole other way of doping.

Back to mechanical doping, and here is an often times overlooked point that fits at Sky with what a bike riding with an engine would look like. The weight loss and power gain would make sense in terms of what would realistically happen if riders starting having engines to assist them. Why? The all important power per weight ratio is the key to understanding this. As most knows there is a most efficient spot for power per weight on the road, and this changes when the roads gradient rise (Or more correctly speed changes, as it has to do with the air friction). This most efficient spot is what riders chase, the perfect amount of muscle mass. Now where does this lead? Well what would be the result of giving every rider a watt bonus? Well since the watt bonus would be equal for all riders and that the formula for kinetic energy is KE=½mv^2 (Wherein that it can be seen that each added 1m/s of velocity is more expensive than the last) It can be concluded that the ideal weight of riders would drop. This fits with improved ITT performance and weight loss

Here comes my main point with the above, whereas some might stop here and conclude Sky used an engine I prefer to dig a bit deeper, first dig CF's first pro contract. Normally CF and the 2011 Vuelta is used as an example against him, but here is a question, lets say Sky has an engine they want their riders to use, why of all people would they strap it on CF doing the Vuelta. A couple of points to why this makes no sense, simple economics if you knew CF would accept the engine, why would you not renew him before giving him the engine, they could have said well we have an engine for you and a three year contract, would he not have signed then? Saving them money? The only way that it would be possible to have this happen is Sky and BW had an engine CF discovers and blackmails DB? Is this likely to be true, I would say not really.

Either way back to the evidence presented, there seems to be three ways to have the engine pull.

1 On the crank not turning the levers (Measured on SRM or not)
2 On the rear wheel (Not measured on SRM)
3 On the crank turning the levers (Measured on SRM)

Option 1 is just plain stupid, while it would probably be possible to make such a mechanism, surely people would ask question with the front sprockets spinning at different cadence than the levers, this would almost be sure to be caught on camera.

Option 2 is not as stupid as option two however it is harder to engineer, and the possibility of free running makes it possible to do with out easily being detected. But this would require either fitting the engine in the rear hub (Don't see it) or alternatively, adding metal to the hubs and use induction, a possibility I guess. About adding power this way, would it not simply result in the gears free spinning in a similar fashion to pushing a too low gear for a given speed.

Option 3 Well it seems the most doable option let it aid, how does it fit with Sky? Poorly, if doing this you would want to run high gears low cadence. Else the engine would smash the riders legs like a spinning bike out of control. Also it has been proven that low cadence is more efficient mechanically, the reason riders push high is that is feel better.
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #151 on: July 24, 2015, 08:42 »
    well, all of us relying on Eurosport know, LeMond believes various things. Some of those are new though, and related to hidden motors


    “I believe it’s been used in racing, I believe it’s been used sometimes in the Grand Tours,”

    “It’s simple to check for, much easier than doping,”

    “I know that motors exist, I’ve ridden a bike with one. … If people think they don’t exist, they’re fooling themselves, so I think it’s a justified suspicion,”

    “It seems too incredible that someone would do it, but I know it’s real.”



    www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/07/23/forget-doping-greg-lemond-thinks-tour-de-france-riders-could-be-cheating-with-tiny-motors/?tid=sm_tw
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #152 on: July 24, 2015, 09:14 »
    well, all of us relying on Eurosport know, LeMond believes various things. Some of those are new though, and related to hidden motors


    “I believe it’s been used in racing, I believe it’s been used sometimes in the Grand Tours,”

    “It’s simple to check for, much easier than doping,”

    “I know that motors exist, I’ve ridden a bike with one. … If people think they don’t exist, they’re fooling themselves, so I think it’s a justified suspicion,”

    “It seems too incredible that someone would do it, but I know it’s real.”



    www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/07/23/forget-doping-greg-lemond-thinks-tour-de-france-riders-could-be-cheating-with-tiny-motors/?tid=sm_tw

    He said that a month or two ago so the WP are a bit behind the times. Froome also said it yesterday.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-check-froomes-bike-and-five-others-for-hidden-motors-at-tour-de-france
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  • QuintanaWiggo

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #153 on: July 24, 2015, 09:46 »
    The Old Motor in the downtube trick: UCI Suspicious  :)   :) 

    http://d2ride.co.uk/News-and-Blog.php
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  • just some guy

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    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #156 on: September 07, 2015, 08:06 »
    does he really say "hide it!" as it says in the explanatory notes?
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #157 on: September 07, 2015, 11:02 »
    does he really say "hide it!" as it says in the explanatory notes?

    No comprendo. But what we can observe with our eyes is that the seatpost-saddle is out and separated from a (very small) bike that appears otherwise undamaged. Which is one of the more unusual dislocations of bike parts but it could simply have failed, I suppose. It's common with carbon posts. :s

    Otherwise it is not untypical to see cars swapping bikes out, removing unusable ones to the rearmost car. I don't think there's anything particularly odd about that.

    I think this is trolling, but then it's La Gazzetta, isn't it? ;)
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #158 on: September 07, 2015, 14:38 »
    No comprendo. But what we can observe with our eyes is that the seatpost-saddle is out and separated from a (very small) bike that appears otherwise undamaged. Which is one of the more unusual dislocations of bike parts but it could simply have failed, I suppose. It's common with carbon posts. :s

    Otherwise it is not untypical to see cars swapping bikes out, removing unusable ones to the rearmost car. I don't think there's anything particularly odd about that.

    I think this is trolling, but then it's La Gazzetta, isn't it? ;)

    It does look like the bike broke, I can understand why they want to hid it. Think of how long people talked about Hincapie's fork breaking at Paris Roubaix.

    He is saying Hide/stash it where nobody can see it
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #160 on: January 30, 2016, 17:42 »
    here we go...

    Quote
    The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) confirms that pursuant to the UCI's Regulations on technological fraud a bike has been detained for further investigation following checks at the Women's Under 23 race of the 2016 UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships. This does not concern any of the riders on the podium. Further details will be shared in due course.

    http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci-statement-174751/

    https://twitter.com/CXHairs/status/693471655243464704
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #162 on: January 30, 2016, 18:15 »
    Saw this[1] in the news, and had to bop over here first to see if anybody knew anything!

    MFG, if she gets nailed on this one, just total shock.
     1. Femke van den Driessche
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  • « Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 23:01 by hiero »
    . . .He had the bit between his teeth, and he loiked the taste, mate . . .

    Francois the Postman

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #163 on: January 31, 2016, 00:48 »
    Yup, didn't think I was gonna be the first one here, nor the third.

    So UCI-coördinator Peter Van den Abeele actually confirmed to Sporza we have hit a new(ly discovered) low....

    A friggin' motor. In a bike. For real.

    Wtf.


    You know, the temptation and culture of dope I can actually understand (to some degree). This just fries my brains.
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #164 on: January 31, 2016, 00:55 »
    reading something about cables coming out of the tube once they dismounted the saddle sounds just absurd though, in lights of the newly discovered detection techniques to check the bikes mentioned in the cyclingtips article...

    http://cyclingtips.com/2016/01/motors-scandal-reports-state-that-belgian-under-23-rider-becomes-the-first-to-be-caught-for-mechanical-doping/
    http://cyclingtips.com/2016/01/more-details-emerge-about-motorized-doping-at-cyclo-cross-worlds/
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  • Francois the Postman

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #165 on: January 31, 2016, 01:05 »
    Well, if you were ever gonna pick a cycling discipline to be a dirty cheat in, I guess cyclo-cross is a natural pick.

    I do have an issue with the 6 months ban for mechanical fraud though. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't qualify for the same treatment as banned substances, for something as blatent as this.
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #166 on: January 31, 2016, 01:39 »
    Well, if you were ever gonna pick a cycling discipline to be a dirty cheat in, I guess cyclo-cross is a natural pick.

    I do have an issue with the 6 months ban for mechanical fraud though. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't qualify for the same treatment as banned substances, for something as blatent as this.
    6 months is the minimum ban for "technical manipulation". As far as I remember there is no maximum stipulated in the rules - in a case as blatant as an actual motor in the bike being proven, a life ban may well be handed down.

    On the case itself:
    :fp
    Why?
    :fp
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #167 on: January 31, 2016, 08:11 »
    6 months is the minimum ban for "technical manipulation". As far as I remember there is no maximum stipulated in the rules - in a case as blatant as an actual motor in the bike being proven, a life ban may well be handed down.

    On the case itself:
    :fp
    Why?
    :fp

    Because they are idiots who think it'll never be them!! If it's proven ban her for life, make the example quickly and we'll hear no more about it
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #168 on: January 31, 2016, 09:33 »
    Because they are idiots who think it'll never be them!! If it's proven ban her for life, make the example quickly and we'll hear no more about it

    The bans need to be for everyone involved. No way[1] a 19-year old girl goes and does this off her own bat. And I would find it very unlikely that her team/federation would be able to argue as such.
     1. probably...
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #169 on: January 31, 2016, 11:07 »
     Now, I know some of us are a little reluctant to condemn solely on the basis of video footage, but the lady in question doing her now well documented thing up the Koppenberg:-
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #170 on: January 31, 2016, 12:12 »
    The bans need to be for everyone involved. No way[1] a 19-year old girl goes and does this off her own bat. And I would find it very unlikely that her team/federation would be able to argue as such.
     1. probably...

    The rules include a minimum 6 month suspension (maximum unspecified) as well.  Typical of UCI rules, that is not very clear: nothing in the team name but individuals can continue, or suspension of all members of the team from all cycling related activity, or suspension of team management only? And would that apply to her trade team or the Belgian national team she was riding for?
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  • « Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 13:00 by Armchair Cyclist »

    Joelsim

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #171 on: January 31, 2016, 12:37 »
    It's all fine, it wasn't her bike, it was her friend's.

    Panic over.
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #172 on: January 31, 2016, 12:55 »
    It's all fine, it wasn't her bike, it was her friend's.

    Panic over.

    Nah, it was one of the team staff.

    She can't even keep the story straight in a single interview, then it was het friends, then it was someone from the staff, than the bike was bought and stored, then the bike used to be hers but was her friends, every minute it seems a different story
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #173 on: January 31, 2016, 13:09 »
    It was, apparently, in the pit lane and unused.  But if my impression that each rider is allowed two bikes, and in those conditions no riders was going to want to race without a bike change, so it would seem very difficult to claim that it was not the intention to use it.
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #174 on: January 31, 2016, 13:15 »
    Now, I know some of us are a little reluctant to condemn solely on the basis of video footage, but the lady in question doing her now well documented thing up the Koppenberg:-


    hmmmm.... that's not suspicious at all!

    Now if she lost a stone or two and poked her elbows out we could envisage the Ventoux in 2013....  :o :o :o :o just kidding

    Whatever they are using to get the drive must be some superb tech to slide inside a frame and generate enough power to offset the extra weight
     
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #175 on: January 31, 2016, 13:22 »
    Whatever they are using to get the drive must be some superb tech to slide inside a frame and generate enough power to offset the extra weight

    there are a bunch of articles about it in this thread, it's no problem at all nowadays, and there are all kind of variants of it available in every price range
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #176 on: January 31, 2016, 13:23 »
    It was, apparently, in the pit lane and unused.  But if my impression that each rider is allowed two bikes, and in those conditions no riders was going to want to race without a bike change, so it would seem very difficult to claim that it was not the intention to use it.

    Yes no better place to hide something like this than cyclo cross where bikes can be changed on a lap by lap basis and are covered in mud so distinguishing features are obscured.

    Surely one telling factor would be whether it was set up according to her bike fit position such as seat height saddle-steerer distance and pedals etc unless the mystery rider was exactly the same size as her?
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    barrus

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #177 on: January 31, 2016, 13:33 »
    Yes no better place to hide something like this than cyclo cross where bikes can be changed on a lap by lap basis and are covered in mud so distinguishing features are obscured.

    Surely one telling factor would be whether it was set up according to her bike fit position such as seat height saddle-steerer distance and pedals etc unless the mystery rider was exactly the same size as her?

    Yes he was the exact same size as her, so the bike was completely identical to her. However we have need heard her tell his name, nor him coming out and saying something, coming with them on the interview and she isn't mad at him, so this all checks out and is totally real
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #178 on: January 31, 2016, 13:43 »
    there are a bunch of articles about it in this thread, it's no problem at all nowadays, and there are all kind of variants of it available in every price range

    Have to admit I've not read everything in this thread and do need a referesh of it, I'll have a look
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #179 on: January 31, 2016, 13:56 »
    This could be the cycling equivalent of finding the Loch Ness Monster...
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