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AG

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Re: Hidden Motors
« Reply #420 on: October 16, 2016, 01:06 »
when I saw the hidden motors thread come up today I thought for sure it was about Olga Zabelinskya   :lol
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #421 on: October 17, 2016, 12:11 »
    It's CyclingWeekly. They'll write anything:P

    Having watched the video, I think that's completely normal. If I put down my bike (which most definitely does not have a motor!) like that, the back wheel will begin to spin a bit. I don't know why exactly, but ... physics. :zzz1

    Are you sure!? I mean, you really expect us to believe that when you didn't get it heat-scanned? Come on, man!    :lol   :cool
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  • . . .He had the bit between his teeth, and he loiked the taste, mate . . .

    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #422 on: January 30, 2017, 04:41 »
    Here's the 60 Minutes report:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-investigates-hidden-motors-and-pro-cycling/

    For now, it should be available for viewing, plus extra footage and a full transcript. My real-time comments were provided in the main shout box.

    As expected, nothing of certainty is brought to light. Just more innuendo, supposition and suspicion. Not sure what the producers at 60 Minutes were hoping to accomplish, other than further humiliating cycling to a general public that has little interest in the sport to begin with.

    Fingers pointed squarely at Lance and Team Sky, but with no solid evidence of anything, really.
    Ryder and Fabian get a nice little nod at the outset.  :D

    Varjas is aptly described as "cagey." He hardly comes across with much conviction. And I can't believe they even included the laughably weak video footage of a supposed mechanical wheel. The whole piece is, sadly, pretty much exactly what I had anticipated.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #423 on: January 30, 2017, 05:03 »
    A few notable items:

    Quote
    Jean-Pierre Verdy is the former testing director for the French Anti-Doping Agency who investigated doping in the Tour de France for 20 years.

    Bill Whitaker: Have there been motors used in the Tour de France?

    Jean-Pierre Verdy: Yes, of course. It’s been the last three to four years when I was told about the use of the motors. And in 2014, they told me there are motors. And they told me, there’s a problem. By 2015, everyone was complaining and I said, something’s got to be done.

    Verdy said he’s been disturbed by how fast some riders are going up the mountains. As a doping investigator, he relied for years on informants among the team managers and racers in the peloton, the word for the pack of riders. These people told Jean-Pierre Verdy that about 12 racers used motors in the 2015 Tour de France.
     :-x

    Quote
    In order to demonstrate the motors existed as far back as 1998, Stefano Varjas suggested to us that we find a carbon fiber 1999 U.S. Postal Service team bike, the same bike the U.S. Postal team used in the 1999 Tour de France. We bought this bike off the Internet and he installed a motor based on his first design into the bike.  He charged us $12,000, saying that covered his costs for the parts and labor.
     :lol

    Quote
    Stefano said he told the French police that just before the 2015 Tour de France he again sold motorized bikes to an unknown client through a middleman. He said he was directed to deliver the bikes to a locked storage room in the town of Beaulieu Sur Mer, France. 

    Stefano Varjas told us that in addition to the motors in the bike frames, he’s designed a motor that can be hidden inside the hub of the back wheel seen here in a video he gave us.

    According to Varjas the enhanced wheels weigh about 800 grams—or 1.7 pounds more than normal wheels.

    In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages.  French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest—each bike weighed about 800 grams more.
     
    :shh

    A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.

    As I said previously though, it's all lacking in any substantial proof of anything. This didn't amount to nearly the dramatic report that Varjas has been hinting at for a few months now.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #424 on: January 30, 2017, 08:40 »
    So everyone and their dog knows it's being used and even exactly how many in which race - but still no names? :o
    My guess Sky used motors for that TTT in 2015 - but not poor old Nico Roche :D
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #425 on: January 30, 2017, 09:25 »
    One thing that might have been advatageous was if they had tried to retro fit the original motor design to other pro bikes from the late 90's. Showing it fits into the Trek is one thing. Showing that it does or doesn't fit into other bikes would help show which other manufacturers equipment it could have been used on back then.
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  • pastronef

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #426 on: January 30, 2017, 11:55 »
    So everyone and their dog knows it's being used and even exactly how many in which race - but still no names? :o
    My guess Sky used motors for that TTT in 2015 - but not poor old Nico Roche :D

    and they still lost the TT to BMC with Movistar a close 3rd at 3 seconds.
    Froome was 39th in the prologue at 50 seconds
    those wheels are slow!  :lol  :P
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #427 on: January 30, 2017, 12:35 »
    And all Sky bikes were subject to an unannounced test on that day.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #428 on: January 30, 2017, 18:02 »
    And all Sky bikes were subject to an unannounced test on that day.
    The test can only find motors hidden in the frame, not magnetic wheels.
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  • t-72

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #429 on: January 30, 2017, 20:35 »
    I have read a few tweets and some forum posts here and there. conclusion is the same as it used to be: good marketing for Varjas and no facts supplied? I don't think he is a credible source, but even liars can pass elements of truth when they plan not to.
    There is some talk about a company in Beaulieu-sur-Mer which is Nice by any other name (midway to Col d'Eze but down by the sea). My impression is that about 1/3 of the WT peloton lives within an hours bike ride from there. He supplied a bike there, supposedly? Did he say which brand? If not, good job to get CBS to expose his skills on prime television like that. Costs millions for others to get such TV-AD time?

    PS: Does he suppply the motors for the Cippolini bikes that are fitted with motors?
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #430 on: January 30, 2017, 22:43 »
    And all Sky bikes were subject to an unannounced test on that day.

    And who wrote the test protocol - none other than the UCI's very own Barfield.  No I don't think we can draw too much out of that but there was a serious lack of evidence in that program.  If Varjas wants to be credible he needs to make it public who paid him the $2 million.  That would get everyone taking notice.

    I put my neck out a long time ago that this had legs and started many years ago, but right now we are not close to exposing it. 

    Was that 60 minutes best shot or are they holding back for another program and needing to get a few more ducks into line ?

    Two things leave me unchanged in my viewpoint - Greg was/is sticking to his guns - motors have been used and there seems plenty of motives for him to not stand in line on this one, but he is and then all that stuff about mechanics sleeping with bikes and riders taking bikes to their rooms.  Riders never take bikes to their rooms they are sick to death of the sight of them without tripping over them getting them into and out of the lift and when coming out of the shower.  That just does not add up.

    In 2013 I was convinced Froome bought the Ventoux stage from Quintana.  I know what I saw was not credible.  But the origins of it ?  Even though at that time skeptics like myself knew the rumours about Spartacus and motors, I certainly did not think Sky would go for motors, right now I am waivering.  How to explain the ridiculousness of what we all saw. 

    To the believers - I wish I was with you.
    I think plain old cash is still the easiest explanation and Sky have more than anyone else
    However, I would not take much more convincing to believe that I was wrong and mechanical doping was used. 

    I had hoped 60 minutes would give us much more.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #431 on: January 30, 2017, 22:47 »
    It really wouldn't surprise me if they'd been used.

    I struggle to believe with all the checks that anyone would've been stupid enough to use them over the past few years and to suggest a whole team is using them is crazy, someone would spill the beans.
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #432 on: January 30, 2017, 22:55 »
    I have no confidence the test is worthwhile given the fact that the UCI are doing it at the Tour.  They have no interest whatsoever in finding motors, look at how hard they had to be shoved to find the evil U23 moto-girls bike.  Just imagine finding a bike in the bosses ex team with a motor - the winners team - double whammy, let's bring the whole sport down and flush it through the U-bend shall we.  No-one from the UCI would ever do that if they tested from now until doomsday.  Again Greg and Cathy were calling out the test protocol at the time.  That rings genuine.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #433 on: January 31, 2017, 12:13 »
    One thing that might have been advatageous was if they had tried to retro fit the original motor design to other pro bikes from the late 90's. Showing it fits into the Trek is one thing. Showing that it does or doesn't fit into other bikes would help show which other manufacturers equipment it could have been used on back then.
    Exactly. He could possibly have retro-fitted his motor into a bike Merckx or Coppi used (maybe not).
    Is that proof that the stars of old used motors? :lol

    In my opinion, Varjas is a snakeoil salesman, and he sells it enormously well. But if he told me my bike had two wheels, I'd check a few extra times before going on a ride.
    As a source, he's about as untrustworthy as they come.
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    Kiwirider

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #434 on: January 31, 2017, 15:04 »
    I struggle to believe with all the checks that anyone would've been stupid enough to use them over the past few years and to suggest a whole team is using them is crazy, someone would spill the beans.

    Of course, who would take risks like that.

    I mean, with all of the drug testing that there is, no rider in their right mind would take PEDs. No-one is doping now, right?

    And it has always been impossible to keep team wide cheating protocols hidden - I mean, look how the whole USPS/Discovery empire only managed to keep their doping regimes hidden for well over a decade.

    Oh wait ... that's the argument for the counter position ...
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  • Ram

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #435 on: February 01, 2017, 07:04 »
    If drugs turned the blood green, there'd be little doping. That's how tough it is to find motors, things hidden in frames don't make it invisible.
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  • pastronef

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #436 on: February 01, 2017, 07:51 »
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  • Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #437 on: February 07, 2017, 10:31 »
    Wout Van Aert under scrutiny again


    http://cycling.today/new-video-raises-fresh-concerns-about-mechanical-doping/



    It looks none too good for Wout on that evidence, but of course that isn't contextual.

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    LukasCPH

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #438 on: February 07, 2017, 10:36 »
    Wout Van Aert under scrutiny again


    http://cycling.today/new-video-raises-fresh-concerns-about-mechanical-doping/



    It looks none too good for Wout on that evidence, but of course that isn't contextual.
    An article that can't be bothered to spell "Krawatencross" correctly is of no value whatsoever if a case would ever come of this. :S

    As for the actual video:
    His backwheel skids in the mud. Like the commentator says. Nothing to see here. :serious
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  • Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #439 on: February 07, 2017, 10:38 »
    You dont think a couple of those clips see it moving a little un-naturally?

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #440 on: February 07, 2017, 12:33 »
    the power certainly doesn´t come off even when not peddling
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

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    Echoes

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #441 on: February 08, 2017, 09:05 »


    One comment below:

    Quote
    Clemens s.yesterday
    1st situation: he is with his left feet in the pedal -> no problem that the wheel spins a bit when he puts his leg a bit down.
    2nd situation: pedal hangs in the mud, so perfectly normal
    3rd situation: when you know what driving in the mud is, you perfectly understand this: he just has no grip, so his wheel spins fast without moving forward.
    4rd situation: he just slips away (again no grip so wheel accelerates)
    Nothing is wrong with this [sic] 4 situations...

    It stands to reason, I think. It's the reason why of all time we've always seen cyclocrossers with their bike on the shoulder and their wheels still spinning on their own. :fp
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  • "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #442 on: February 08, 2017, 09:17 »
    it does look unusual to me, to be honest. But I know nothing about cyclocross
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    Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #443 on: February 08, 2017, 10:56 »
    the power certainly doesn´t come off even when not peddling

    The one where the bike almost rips itself out of his hands is the one I am finding most compelling.

    I have no axe to grind with Wout van Aert, in fact I love watching him ride. But this does look odd.

    He might just have really brilliant ceramic bearings in those hubs that keep rolling, of course.
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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #444 on: April 02, 2018, 16:35 »
    I didn't post up after those clips from cross, not because I didn't believe them but becasue there is nothing other to explain them.  Motors are being used.  The riders are confident of no sanction because they know the system supports them.  Look at Cookson coming out in December stating that Sky and Wiggins should have their credibility re-instated.  Days before SOMEBODY (er where ?  Just think who is in the group of (i) who knows and (ii) who wants Sky & Froome to have a hard time) leaked it that Froome had an AAF for salbutemol.  Cookson knew about that but dismissed it as "I thought it had been dealt with".  So he went public with Sky are good and have been wrongly trashed.  He didn't say that because he wanted to appear like a clueless clown; he said it because he knows that is the way the system works.

    There from the horses mouth - how the top guys think.  1) don't make it public and 2) use the rules to magic it away.  Identical was being done with Lizzie's missed tests in 2016. 
    So to think that these guys are using motors to dominate cross, are doing it without someone/several people on the inside helping a great deal, is one hell of a stretch.  Just because we have not seen an email like that issued by Barfield about upcoming motor testing at the Tour, to teams to make sure they do not get caught, don't think it is not happening in cross.

    Anyway - after an excuse as to why I have not written, why I write.  On twitter there was this today
    https://twitter.com/EwonSprokler/status/980783387383357442
    Follow the link and we are at a 6 day in 1979 and Belgian Willy Debosscher was using a motor to trash Sercu and the rest of the pack in a devil.  How funny must that have been when Sercu found out !
    Then we have Rene Wenzel in the story about motors.  OK Wenzel is a real scoundrel with many stories about dopage to his name.  He is there with Angus Fraser and Chris Carmichael doping minors Strock and Kaiter that causes them long term health problems. 
    So I type in Wenzel and and Saturn (his long term team) and up pops the rosta for 1999 and oh look another name connected with doping Egon van Kessel.

    Down the list of riders and there is Levi Leipheimer.
    Don't you just know it !
    Levi confessed all about his doping, every little thing, every last tiny little bit
    he covered off every year and every team including Saturn for which there was convincing evidence from multiple witnesses saying he doped but wudn't you just know it
    Levi told us, honest, cross his heart and hope to die, that for the last 5 years of his career, incuding when he won an olympic medal he did not dope.  Yet another one who does his best riding without PEDs just proving the case that PEDs don't work.  You can ride better without them than with them.  Nothing to do with the fact that these were the years no witnesses came forward and said "I saw Levi with a syringe in his arm".

    Sure Levi - I believe you. We all believe you and the candour with which you have confessed.

    And who is next on the list, well cut from even a more pure strain of the same rock comes Michael Barry.

    Again, another one who denied and denounced, denounced and denied.  Barry even wrote books about how clean he was and how it was due to the fact that he was his mom&pop's son and could never do anything bad like doping.  He took the p1ss big style with one title, I am sure he, Dede, Lance and Sheryl had a hell of a laugh over a beer on the plane to a charity gig about Michael calling his book "inside the US postal bus". 

    And then once Zabriskei confessed that It was Barry's wife Dede and Michael that convinced him, in a heart to heart in their kitchen one day that he had to dope - look here is the epo in our fridge, between the milk and the eggs, suddenly Sky rider Michael, who had already passed the "face-off" test with Brasilford, decided to confess all.

    Barry told us that he doped on Monday but not Tuesday, never on a Tuesday becasue that was not a day for doping and more crA* like that  and then of course wrote another book telling us about this and, somehow, just like Levi, he had his best results when he wasn't doping and we should believe him, he spent most of his career not using PEDs including every single second he rode at Team Sky because they were a clean team oh and of course wife Dede never imbued any of the EPO, she just saw it in the fridge and turned the other cheek cos she is pure and does not lie and anyway PEDs don't work.  Like Levi she holds onto her Olympic medal in fact she is a selector on the US cycling team.  She knows what to look out for to be a successful olympian.

    Michael, I hope you and Dede read those books to your kids each night before they go to bed. 

    So there was me thinking, with a 1979 fix of use on the track,  I wondered if we might get back to the truth about when motors started to become used on the road, as Wenzel was obviously speaking because he is sick of being made a scape goat.  But crystalised in front of us at the very first page I look at as a result of my search, is the embodiment of why the use of motors will remain burried.  When we have to rely on the testimony of the likes of Levi and Michael Barry, who know only how to use another lie to move away from a previous lie, we are going nowhere. 

    We have an International Federation that know they would do incredible and probably irrepairable damage the sport if they were to actually find a big star using a motor, in charge of looking for motors and we have a gang of crooks using them.  Both are well beyond the fans with typewriters who could provide scrutiny.

    If it took 31 years for Willy Debosscher's motor use to get exposed, don't think anyone any time soon is going to give you the translation to "We were using rounder wheeels than you boys were". 

    Now when, in recent years have I seen anyone clean up in a devil, oh and who was it that took 8 seconds off his pb for the IP between the world champs in March and Rio 2016.  One hell of a diet, one hell of a training program.  Yes, rounder wheels, marginal gains, but certainly no PEDs or motors here.

    As Lapartient said, the big spend on motor detecting equipment this year is not so they catch anyone, but so they can deter.  There - see, everyone is happy. 

    La la la,     La la la

    “Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles....... You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people.......there are no secrets — this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it."

    La la la,     La la la,      La la la,     La la la

    Let me set my alarm for 2032,  around September I think.  Yep 31 years. 

    Edit Sh1t I can't count  - 2042 ! No chance I will still be consuming oxygen by then, long since become worm food.
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #445 on: April 07, 2018, 21:51 »
    . . .
    As for the actual video:
    His backwheel skids in the mud. Like the commentator says. Nothing to see here. :serious
    . . .

    One comment below:

    It stands to reason, I think. It's the reason why of all time we've always seen cyclocrossers with their bike on the shoulder and their wheels still spinning on their own. :fp

    Holy sh*t batman, I'm with the finger-pointing squad this time. I couldn't get a back wheel to spin like that if I was peddling on black ice. And the one where he is off the bike entirely? Whoa. The clips are of poor quality though.

    Dropped by to add in a word about the Boonen interview question about Cancellara and motors. 
    You can find the French version here.

    If you can understand the French original, please help us understand Boonen's answer. Is Boonen saying "Yes, Cancellara did it"?  I mean, he could be saying "Yes, there is doubt." But I can't tell.
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  • Echoes

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #446 on: April 08, 2018, 11:54 »

    So there was me thinking, with a 1979 fix of use on the track,  I wondered if we might get back to the truth about when motors started to become used on the road, as Wenzel was obviously speaking because he is sick of being made a scape goat.

    It was exposed back in the days. 31 years later, there were rumours about Cancellara at the Tour of Flanders and that old story was revived. I read that story back then (in 2010) and have often referred to it in posts here or on CN, I think but nobody really cared. It's not forget that Debosscher was known as a clown in the circuit and as far as I know, Sixes such as Grenoble are like criterium on the track. Of course the other riders were bitter and Sercu had to calm them down.
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  • Havik

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #447 on: April 09, 2018, 03:54 »
    If you can understand the French original, please help us understand Boonen's answer. Is Boonen saying "Yes, Cancellara did it"?  I mean, he could be saying "Yes, there is doubt." But I can't tell.

    Boonen's answer was more along the lines of "I have my doubts" than "he definitely used a motor".

    I've transcribed the relevant part of the interview (from 3:17 in the video) as literally as I could (translation below):
    Quote
    Est-ce qu'il y a des moteurs dans le vélo? Dans le cyclisme professionel?
    Maintenant? Non.

    Il y en a eu avant?
    C'est possible.

    Il y a cette image incroyable que l'on a tous, quand en 2013, Fabian Cancellara vous lâche dans le Mur de Grammont. Est-ce que ce jour-là vous vous dites: on m'a volé mon Tour des Flandres. Est-ce que vous avez des doutes?

    Oui, mais c'est pas à moi de le dire. J’ai terminé deuxième, et ce n’est pas le deuxième qui peut dire: "ça ce n'est pas normal". C’est une chose très difficile. Parce qu'il n'est pas possible de...  Le vélo est parti...

    On ne peut pas contrôler, c'est trop tard.
    C'est... Oui.


    Are there motors in professional cycling?
    Now? No.

    Have they been used in the past?
    It's possible.

    There is this incredible image that we all have, when in 2013 Fabian Cancellara leaves you behind on the Wall of Grammont. On that day, did you think to yourself, "my Tour of Flanders has been stolen"? Do you have doubts?

    Yes, but it's not for me to say. I came second, and it's not the runner-up who can say: "this is not normal". It's a very difficult thing. Because it is not possible to... The bike is gone...

    We can't check, it's too late.
    That's... Yeah.

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  • « Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 04:09 by Havik »

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #448 on: May 22, 2018, 08:22 »
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