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DB-Coop

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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this then.

If a team were to modify a frame, or any other component, so that it gave them an illegal advantage, I wouldn't put any of that blame on the original manufacturer, nor would it influence my opinion of any manufacturer.

To me it would be like blaming the bottle company because someone spiked their drink. I just don't see the correlation.

No, but it reflects on them. Did USPS know what the team did, no, but would you ride in their gear, probably also no. So if Team Trek cheated in this way, selling a Trek bike would be hard imo.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    So if Team Trek cheated in this way, selling a Trek bike would be hard imo.

    Along those lines then, I wonder if manufacturers are taking any steps to preserve the integrity of their own brand?

    It might require a delicate dance though. If Trek (to use your example) was worried that their frames were being illegally modified behind-closed-doors, how might they investigate that without offending the likes of someone with the status of Spartacus?

    This is assuming that they were in no way complicit to begin with.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Along those lines then, I wonder if manufacturers are taking any steps to preserve the integrity of their own brand?

    It might require a delicate dance though. If Trek (to use your example) was worried that their frames were being illegally modified behind-closed-doors, how might they investigate that without offending the likes of someone with the status of Spartacus?

    This is assuming that they were in no way complicit to begin with.

    Riders for the most part don't own the bikes, so I suppose they could just take it as a souvenir after he wins P-R and then check it themselves.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Cookson on motors in bikes

    Quote
    “Our information is that this is a very real possibility. We don’t have any firm evidence but we are absolutely aware that these products are out there and that it is a possibility,” Cookson told CyclingTips in an exclusive interview conducted on Thursday.
    Quote
    “I think it would be devastating if any team was found to have engaged in this. Our sport will survive, but if a team or an individual is found with an electric motor in the bike…that would be beneath contempt.”
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Capt_Cavman

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    I have my doubts that this is happening, mainly because the bike sponsor or component sponsor have to be in on it. Imagine if Caught no one would ever buy said brands again.
    I'm with Drummer Boy on this one.

    Someone in a garage somewhere who has access to very small motors and the ability to engineer with them, takes apart a Dura Ace hub (assuming the motor's in the hub of course) and puts it back together with a motor inside. They then tap up a team mechanic and ask him whether he can think of a use for a motor assisted hub. Mechanic goes to rider and they have a laugh about it, pretending it's all just ridiculous. Then the rider says, 'I'm really curious to see if it works, how much does he want?' And so a mutually beneficial business relationship is born. No-one else involved but supplier, mechanic and rider.

    It isn't just the engine, it's also energy storage and I wondered whether having a wire run from electronic shifter battery pack to rear hub was a bit easily detectable. But then I got to thinking about the new breed of hybrid cars and wondered whether kinetic energy isn't the answer. Harvest the energy sitting in the bunch and going downhill, release it for the uphill or the bunch sprint...Who knows?
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    Shane Stoke seems to be very sure it is/was in use, he has spoken to a former pro who has used a motorized bike in the past

    https://twitter.com/SSbike/status/581416571794509824
    https://twitter.com/SSbike/status/581460383862521856
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  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    LukasCPH

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    Yes, I followed that conversation last night.

    There were suggestions the motor could work like a hybrid motor in a car - storing energy in downhills or flats, boosting energy in decisive moments.
    That would probably need far less space than an e-bike motor.
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    riding too slowly

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    Cookson on motors in bikes



    Quote
    “Our information is that this is a very real possibility. We don’t have any firm evidence but we are absolutely aware that these products are out there and that it is a possibility,” Cookson told CyclingTips in an exclusive interview conducted on Thursday.
    Quote
    “I think it would be devastating if any team was found to have engaged in this. Our sport will survive, but if a team or an individual is found with an electric motor in the bike…that would be beneath contem
    On the basis that at long last the penny has dropped that machine doping is active in the peloton, I find Cookson's response informing. 

    "Beneath contempt" !  OK so fan-boy Brian doing selfies with Eddy - I made my life story and fortune from it - doper - Merckx, as he introduces him to the Juniors at the UCI Worl;d Champs, is fine in Brian's book but  goodness gracious me, sticking a motor in your bike to gain an advantage is another level.

    Of course it is not.  That the story has taken so long to gain credibility with so many is just another factual witness for the strength of the Omerta.   

    So according to the current jumbled up thinking of the UCI President, Merckx can be held up to the Juniors as a figure to aspire to but Spartacus would be persona non-grata. 

    Cookson really does not have a handle on this "stealing the livelihoods of others" bit.   
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  • Drummer Boy

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    ...goodness gracious me, sticking a motor in your bike to gain an advantage is another level.

    Yes. If ever discovered, it would be on a completely different level from doping. And it would warrant a degree of punishment far beyond that of most doping violations.

    I used the analogy of the corked baseball bat earlier in this thread, but let's take it a bit further.

    Mechanically "doping" a bicycle would be akin to the stunt the Soviets tried with Olympic fencing back in 1976.
    Quote
    In electric épée fencing, a touch is registered on the scoring box when the tip of the weapon is depressed with a force of 750 grams, completing a circuit formed by the weapon, body cord, and box. It was found that his épée had been modified to include a switch that allowed him to close this circuit without actually depressing the tip of his weapon, so Onishchenko could register a touch without making any contact on his opponent.
    That, from a guy who was already considered to be, essentially, the Cancellara of fencing at the time. Even without the magic épée in his possession, he still went on to win "by a large margin."

    This type of cheating far exceeds the physical doping of oneself, because it completely alters the very nature of the sport and seeks to replace physical advantages with mechanical subterfuge. In the case of cycling, the bike itself is not meant to allow for significant advantages from manufacturer to manufacturer (hence the extensive UCI rules regarding bicycle design). Despite the blow-hard PR campaigns from the likes of Pinarello, Specialized, Cervelo and others, there is not going to be any sort of benefit provided by one company over the next that will actually affect the outcome of the race [there is no shortage of evidence of the same riders winning races across different teams and/or with different sponsors].

    But when a bicycle can no longer be considered a bicycle (and adding a motor would do just that), than there would be nothing left to compete for. What would be next, winning a marathon while wearing roller blades?
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  • Joelsim

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    Wow! This sport is just so corrupt it's untrue.
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  • killswitch

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    Monaco? Hmm... :shh
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  • Joelsim: The huge winner today - Landa.
    just some guy: Aye he marginal gained the flip out of it

    LukasCPH

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    Monaco? Hmm... :shh
    I'll take a moped and break Porte's Madone record by 5 minutes! :D
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  • Drummer Boy

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    https://twitter.com/KathyLeMond/status/583695853661134849


    Quote
    The world's lightest and highest power / weight ratio electric power-assisted bicycle which cannot be identified just by a single look at the design. This bike has no sound and makes absolutely  no noise during the whole ride and we are the only company in the world market who sells it to you.
    :wut
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  • just some guy

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    From the link DB provided via KM






    In Italian but if you think it is not real you are kidding yourself
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    just some guy

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    L'arri

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    see



     :lol

    Did anyone else notice how the e-bike riding position was disturbingly similar to Froome's? :P
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    riding too slowly

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    Yes. If ever discovered, it would be on a completely different level from doping. And it would warrant a degree of punishment far beyond that of most doping violations.

    I used the analogy of the corked baseball bat earlier in this thread, but let's take it a bit further.

    Mechanically "doping" a bicycle would be akin to the stunt the Soviets tried with Olympic fencing back in 1976.That, from a guy who was already considered to be, essentially, the Cancellara of fencing at the time. Even without the magic épée in his possession, he still went on to win "by a large margin."

    This type of cheating far exceeds the physical doping of oneself, because it completely alters the very nature of the sport and seeks to replace physical advantages with mechanical subterfuge. In the case of cycling, the bike itself is not meant to allow for significant advantages from manufacturer to manufacturer (hence the extensive UCI rules regarding bicycle design). Despite the blow-hard PR campaigns from the likes of Pinarello, Specialized, Cervelo and others, there is not going to be any sort of benefit provided by one company over the next that will actually affect the outcome of the race [there is no shortage of evidence of the same riders winning races across different teams and/or with different sponsors].

    But when a bicycle can no longer be considered a bicycle (and adding a motor would do just that), than there would be nothing left to compete for. What would be next, winning a marathon while wearing roller blades?

    I just disagree with your distortion of logic completely. 

    Rigging a machine is entirely as reproachable as rigging the human.  Eddy and Spartacus, both down the tubes every bit as much Pantani, Ryder, JV for turning a blind eye, Lance and regining Olympic RR champ Vino.   

    I don't think you will find 1998 is the start date and that will make many more wonder why ever did they bother with this sport.  The con artist facilitated by administrators compromised at every turn by their own actions.  Cookson is compromised at Sky and BC just as Pat and Hein were before him.
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  • just some guy

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    this link was given to me on twitter

    Link  looks like the battery connection on the video

    Mr Dodgy knee of a engineering background thinks it is a fake and that if it was possible this guy would be making millions in the real world, and it should be noted we never see the motor or battery just the cables
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  • « Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 17:55 by Dim »

    Drummer Boy

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    I just disagree with your distortion of logic completely.
    OK


    I don't think you will find 1998 is the start date...
    Are you sure you've even quoted the correct post? I have no idea what you're referring to, and I honestly can't make sense of the rest of your response. Please clarify your points.
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  • just some guy

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    just some guy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #82 on: April 24, 2015, 05:54 »
    Change of name for front page
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #83 on: April 29, 2015, 09:53 »
    Gazzetta has a big feature about it today, quoting insiders in the bike industry, and the guy who invented this technology 17 years ago. They say it's used both in pro and in amateur ranks. The newest generation of engines can generate up to 500 watts and cost 20000 EUR, versions for amateurs start at 1200 EUR
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #84 on: April 29, 2015, 10:03 »
    found it "somewhere" :shh

    Spoiler (hover to show)
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #85 on: April 29, 2015, 23:06 »
    They say it's used both in pro and in amateur ranks.

    This just gets weirder and weirder. I suppose the most pressing question is: Has anyone actually ever won a race while using a motor?

    I would suggest a lifetime ban for anyone who has ever used a motor and not won.
    It would be a double offense: Being a jackass, and sucking so much.
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #86 on: April 29, 2015, 23:19 »
    meanwhile the UCI has introduced some kind of sanctions for the use of a hidden motor btw

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-introduces-new-sanctions-against-motorised-doping

    ...or better read this version:

    http://stevetilford.com/2015/04/29/6-month-ban-for-motorized-doping-uci/



    and that MPCC guy in the interview I posted in the other thread said for them it makes no difference, for them it counts in the same way as a doping offense
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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #87 on: April 29, 2015, 23:35 »
    http://stevetilford.com/2015/04/29/6-month-ban-for-motorized-doping-uci/

    there are also some interesting comments there:

    Quote
    What people don’t realize is how little mechanical (motor) advantage one would need to gain a massive advantage. The human body is very weak as compared to a motor. A 1/20th of a horsepower is ~38 watts… That’s nearly 10% of a World Tour pro’s FTP. A 10% rise in power output throughout a race would make most of these guys superhuman–far more than EPO even. You’d really only need a motor capable of producing 1/40th of a horsepower to make a major difference in a World Tour race.

    and this one (talking about the US crit/masters scene I assume)

    Quote
    Also one other comment. A local bike mechanic posts pictures of his work on Facebook. One set of pictures, a couple years ago I think, was a picture of him implanting an electric motor into a carbon bike and carefully closing things up (I think he actually had to cut carbon fiber) to make the frame look stock. So there’s at least one rider around here with an electric motor in his bike. Or maybe more accurately there’s at least one bike with a hidden motor around here.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #88 on: April 30, 2015, 00:25 »
    ...or better read this version:

    Empty hyperbole from Tilford.

    Quote
    If you catch a rider trying to race a race with a motor in his bike, then he has to serve a 6 month time-out.
    No. That's not what the UCI statement says, nor is it even consistent with what Tilford himself quoted from the UCI in his own article.

    The word minimum seems to have been ignored, even though it's right there in black and white.

    That UCI statement says nothing specifically about hidden motors (unless that part was hidden as well). Their emphasis is on "compliance" to bicycle standards. So that affords them a wide range of infractions for which to impose penalties, which is good.

    But I am clearly on record as agreeing with Tilford's sentiment in regards to the severity of the penalties that should be in place for anyone caught with a motorized bike. No need to rehash all my own points, but if the UCI is taken seriously, there can be no tolerance whatsoever when it comes to such things. Motorized bike? Bye bye. End of career. Period. Rider and relevant support staff. Done.

    Can you imagine someone being busted for that, and then returning to the peloton? If the mainstream media got hold of such a story, the fallout would set the sport back light years from the already mostly-cartoonish imagine that it currently has the privilege of aligning itself with.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Hidden Motors
    « Reply #89 on: April 30, 2015, 00:35 »
    there are also some interesting comments there:

    You read the comments?  :o  :lol

    Jeezus though, the stupidity in some of those comments is staggering. Lacking the apparent ability to think for themselves, they merely parrot Tilford's own distortion of the truth. Where-in-the-hell does the UCI say, "Oh yeah, motor in the bike? You'll be back in six months." Nowhere. But then ignorance knows no bounds.

    And why in god's name would a mechanic actually post pictures on Facebook of his own mechanical doping?

    The best part of this story will be when a U.S Masters racer gets busted for it.

    [Edit]
    OK, for amusement purposes only, I just went back and read some more of those comments. Problem is, there's nothing amusing. The lack of sense of humor, and the painfully dry nature of most of those responses brings me back to the days of the active Velonews comments sections. American cyclists are very, very serious.   

    :wut :fp :fp :fp
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  • « Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 00:46 by Drummer Boy »

     

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