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Havetts

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Re: Bruyneel
« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2014, 10:02 »
Quote
I am a Belgian national and I reside in the United Kingdom. I have never been a member of USA Cycling, nor any other national governing body of sport based in the United States. I have never signed any document or agreement granting USADA or the AAA any authority over my livelihood or me. None of the anti-doping rule violations alleged by USADA are said to have occurred on US soil. It simply cannot be correct or acceptable that USADA - a US organization - is freely able to determine the livelihood of any individual that it chooses to prosecute, without boundary and without oversight.

He has a point there. International law states that the lawsuit and the applicable law has to be either from the country the offense was committed or the country the person was residenced in. So I think he has a point of saying that USADA doesnt have jurisdiction to suspend him worldwide.
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  • AG

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #91 on: April 22, 2014, 10:03 »
    He has a point about jurisdiction - it is certainly unusual that USADA is issuing sanctions against him ... but that is the process.  the UCI does not actually issue sanctions, it has no anti-doping body of its own ... and USADA is the agency in this case that had all the evidence - as well as the fact that he committed the offences whilst working for an Amercian based and registered team.   


    As for the rest of what Johan said - what a crock of Sh**!!!

    He gets 10 years for what HE did.  That other people have not been sanctioned for what they did is not good, but it does not lessen his offences any.  If he co operated, they might sanction others and stamp out the "doping as a fact of life" in cycling.

    And as for the leaks/manner of the proceedure - another crock.  :fp
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #92 on: April 22, 2014, 10:58 »
    I can't wait to see the full details of the case published which USADA are promising.

    Bruyneel's public defence seems to be:

    1) Jurisdiction - which the panel has rejected

    2) Scapegoat - why only him banned when loads of other managers were playing the same crooked game.

    The irony is that of Bruyneel really doesn't want to be a scapegoat, he should voluntarily walk into CIRC and tell them everything he knows about other managers in the sports (Riis, Vinykourov and Ekimov) and the preparatore''s still in the sport.

    But I doubt he will make this bold step.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #93 on: April 22, 2014, 11:00 »
     Its' all a bit academic, isn't it?
     Since the USADA investigation broke, it seems to me that he has become unemployable within pro cycling.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    benotti69

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #94 on: April 22, 2014, 15:08 »
    Its' all a bit academic, isn't it?
     Since the USADA investigation broke, it seems to me that he has become unemployable within pro cycling.

    Didn't stop Ferrari working, being banned.

    What is to stop Bruyneel personally managing riders?

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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #95 on: April 22, 2014, 15:53 »
    Feels quite good to see the cheat wriggling and looking for loopholes.

     :s

    He would be less of a waster if he 'fessed up in my opinion.
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    Race Radio

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #96 on: April 22, 2014, 21:16 »
    That Bruyneel based his entire case on jurisdiction is just absurd. This point has been settled over and over. The Swiss gave Germany’s Jan Ullrich a ban, Italy’s CONI caught Spaniard Alejandro Valverde, French anti-doping agency (AFLD) banned German resident Stefan Schumacher

    The Arbitrators made it clear he is wrong

    Quote
    Mr. Bruyneel applied for and received a UCI license through his national federation in Belgium every year since 2005. As a license-holder, the UCI ADR therefore apply to him under Article 1. It was further found that he has expressly consented to the rules and regulations of the UCI, including the UCI ADR. Article 11 of the UCI ADR provides that where no sample collection is involved and an anti-doping violation is involved which is discovered by a national anti-doping organization involving a license holder who is not a national, resident, license holder or member of a sports organization of that nation, resolution of the violation shall be administered by and under the rules of that national anti-doping organization. USADA is the anti-doping organization that discovered the alleged anti-doping violations by Mr. Bruyneel. The Panel found that, as a result, jurisdiction exists for USADA to proceed to prosecute the anti-doping violation charges against Mr. Bruyneel.

    Armstrong also lost on this point in his Federal case
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    KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #97 on: April 22, 2014, 21:41 »
    Didn't stop Ferrari working, being banned.

    What is to stop Bruyneel personally managing riders?

    Don't agents need licenses from the uci?
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #98 on: April 22, 2014, 22:09 »
    Don't agents need licenses from the uci?
    Yes, in theory.
    I'd even say "yes, in practice" - but that didn't stop Baden Cooke from getting Papy Horner a ride in January, armed with nothing more than a mobile phone and contacts in the cycling world. No UCI license back then (I think he got one since - or is planning to).
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    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #99 on: April 23, 2014, 02:21 »
    http://www.johanbruyneel.com/blog/article/statement-johan-bruyneel-regarding-aaa-decision
    I'm only just absorbing this stuff now. Bit late, but so be it.

    This is comical. Really. I had expected much more from Bruyneel than this weak retort. Is that all he's got? If so, then he ain't got nothin'.

    Quote
    Nor do I dispute that doping was a fact of life in the peloton for a considerable period of time
    Funny, I was pretty sure that he had spent a "considerable period of time" denying just that.

    Quote
    There is clearly something wrong with a system that allows only six individuals to be punished as retribution for the sins of an era.
    First of all, who says there're finished punishing people?
    Secondly, his argument is absurd. Can't punish all the criminals in the world so why punish any of them?

    Quote
    Did the US Postal team really operate “the most sophisticated, professional and successful doping program that sport has ever seen”?
    Gee, Wally, I don't know. Did they? Whether true or not, how would that vindicate Bruyneel in any way, or lessen his own transgressions? (I'll return to his specific question)

    Jurisdiction, blah blah blah...
    Quote
    I am a Belgian national and I reside in the United Kingdom.
    Not sure how his current place of residence has anything to do with anything. What if Lance had recently moved to Tuva? Would that change anything?

    His whole "poor me, look what USADA did to me" tantrum should be beneath even his dignity. Please. Give it a rest, Johan.


    Re: “the most sophisticated, professional and successful doping program that sport has ever seen”

    This is worth hammering out once and for all, as it gets thrown back and forth, with varying degrees of effectiveness, by both sides of the debate. What is the actual intended meaning of that quote? Particularly the use of the word "that"? Does it mean "that" sport, as in "the sport of cycling"? If so, the correct usage would probably be to say, "that that sport has even seen."

    Or does it mean, "that sport has ever seen" as if to say, "than any sport has ever seen"? Because if the latter, then yes, it is a stretch, and Armstrong's comparison to the East German's is a valid one (that is to say that the US Postal scheme was not as sophisticated as the East German's in terms of the totality of sports history).


    I need to track down the original usage of this by USADA...
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  • mew

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #100 on: April 23, 2014, 03:03 »
    Bruyneel is meh
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #101 on: April 23, 2014, 03:35 »
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/sports/cycling/a-double-standard-in-doping-punishments.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

    When your career is derailed by Hincapie, Danielson and Leipheimer, I'd say that's worthy of an award all by itself.  :lol

    Justice served.  :s
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  • just some guy

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    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #103 on: April 23, 2014, 15:40 »
    I think this was the bit about Ballan that upset Och:

    Quote
    BMC will no doubt be buoyed by their ride in Amstel. Greg Van Avermaet moved into a late move and Samuel Sanchez drew out Gilbert's opposition before the Belgian made his race winning move. According to Peiper, Sanchez has been instrumental since his late move to the team this year. He signed for the team after Alessandro Ballan was fired due to a doping suspension.

    "The great thing in our favour is that we have Sanchez onboard. He's turned us from a great team into a super team. If you have a leader like Phil and then a back-up like Samuel, it can be almost perfect."

    So what is Och upset about:
    1) Ballan was fired due to dpoing
    2) BMC are a stronger team with Sanchez? (who by the way was named as a witness for Pepe Marti, but the evidence was no allowed as he didn't turn up to the hearing)
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #104 on: April 23, 2014, 18:00 »
    Matt White, such a deep, introspective sort. Or not (where is a good roll eyes emoticon?)

    Quote
    Although few would extend much in the way of sympathy towards Bruyneel and Armstrong, White made it clear that “the longer the USADA investigation goes on it just proves that it was all about bringing down one team and one group of people.”

    “Now that Lance and Johan have been brought down those people just want to forget about it. People just want to forget about it.”
    Where is it stated that USADA is done pursuing others? It would only make sense to start at the top. That's what they have done...with patience. Which "people" just want to forget about it? And what is it they supposedly want to forget about?

    Boo hoo for Lance and Johan. I love how attitude from the pros in the aftermath of all this is, essentially, "Yeah, of course we were all doped, all the time. Duh! Now that the "secret" is out, just leave us alone."

    Great way forward.

    Professional athletes are a rare breed. Send 'em to all to work the coal mines for a few years. Might provide a useful perspective on things.
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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #105 on: May 17, 2015, 13:01 »
    A lovely quote by the man himself from a feature about eastern European cyclists in CycleSport:

    "I remember going across to the 1999 Tour of Britain to talk about a contract with Raimondas Rumsas," recalls Bruyneel, who was looking to strengthen his US Postal squad. "He was riding for a small Polish team at the time, Mroz, and I made him what I thought was a decent offer - around 200000$ - and he turned it down flat, saying it was not enough. So those guys worked out their worth quickly enough. In light of what happened in 2002, I suppose you could say we were lucky that he ended up going to Fassa Bortolo and Lampre."

     :lol :fp

    yeh, fortunately that dirty pr*ck didn't end up at the clean team that is US Postal :lol
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  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    LukasCPH

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    AG

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #107 on: September 25, 2015, 00:27 »
    oh lord

    WADA and UCI do tend to maket hings much harder for themselves
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  • stereojet

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #108 on: September 25, 2015, 08:35 »
    Is there a facepalm smileythingy?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #109 on: September 25, 2015, 08:37 »
    Is there a facepalm smileythingy?

    :fp

    : fp no gap
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  • stereojet

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #110 on: September 25, 2015, 08:39 »
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  • just some guy

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    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #112 on: December 22, 2018, 20:02 »
    The first half of this (starting @13:30) is an interview with Johan regarding his now-establised lifetime ban as was recently handed down by CAS.



    Of course he plays the victim role...still. That's one thing he and Lance will forever have in common.

    But I do like listening to his race analysis during the season, because obviously he knows racing. Whether I agree with him or not on all things, I always find his perspective worth listening to. He's seen the sport from pretty much every angle available, so why not benefit from his experience and insight at this point?

    It's also interesting how he talks of cycling as still being beneficial to him and offering some solace. I say that because it wasn't that long ago that I remember him saying that he stayed off the bike, even a stationary one, because he associated the bike too much with suffering and was unable to find joy in riding. So it's curious that that is no longer the case.

    Make of it what you will. It's all part of the final chapter in this saga.
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  • « Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 16:22 by Drummer Boy »

    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #113 on: August 20, 2019, 03:40 »
    Giving this a bump for two reasons.

    First:
    As stated in Flo's Contador thread, Johan will be continuing the success of his recent race-analysis podcasts with a stage-by-stage breakdown of the 2019 Vuelta. He has promised a "special guest host" but has yet to reveal who that is going to be. I was wondering if it might be Alberto, but I'm less inclined to think that now. But the reveal will obviously happen in the next five days or so.

    So watch this space.  :snooty

    [If I remember correctly, his special guest host will be for the Spanish-speaking only version of the podcast that he'll be offering in addition to the English version, due to popular demand. But now I have to wonder if he'll include Chris Horner at all in the English broadcast, since the two of them seem to have maintained a mutual admiration.]

    Bruyneel's daily recap and predictions of Le Tour were really quite something to listen to. Whatever your opinions of him may be, his keen insight is well worth one's time and attention. He loves to talk, and talk he does. And really, there's no fluff whatsoever. It's all quality content, with some deep perspectives that you just won't find anywhere else. I have no doubt that his take on the Vuelta will be just as valuable, if not more so, since there will be less to compete with, and fewer sources of analysis than there would typically be for a Tour de France.

    Personally, I'm very much looking forward to it. If time allows, I may offer highlights and tidbits in the official race thread as we go along.

    Secondly:
    It had been pondered recently, Whatever happened to that book that Johan was supposed to be writing?

    Well, it appears that it's going to happen.
    Quote
    12th July 2019 

    “It is true that we have caused damage to cycling. But that was because we were part of a generation. A generation that did not choose to cycle in the epoch era. Everyone was confronted with this problem that has been insoluble for years. We had to deal with this undetectable product and had to find a way with it. Like everyone had to in those years. From riders to doctors to managers. Everybody. If there was a choice, really nobody would have chosen epo. But if you wanted to keep cycling at the highest level, you couldn’t help but participate. It is very difficult to explain which inner struggle you were in. That is why I am now writing a book in which I try to explain what happened in the mind of a young athlete in those years.”

    Original article – https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/1152875324/bruyneel-onthult-nee-was-geen-antwoord?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic
    The above article isn't translated very well, so if anyone can offer a better interpretation from the original, that would be grand.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #114 on: August 21, 2019, 02:06 »
    Just for the sake of random trivia:

    There are a few possibilities that come to mind regarding the above-mentioned podcast.

    Given his time as a rider at ONCE could it possibly be Manolo Saiz

    Or maybe
    Roberto Heras? (Shared history; previous multi-time winner.)

    Or
    Víctor Hugo Peña? (Shared history; obvious appeal to South American market.)
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  • « Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 02:50 by Drummer Boy »

    t-72

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #115 on: August 21, 2019, 19:00 »
    One does get the impression there´s a bit of a vacuum in American cycling media, and cycling may be harming itself by letting those who created it fill it themselves.

    Armstrong was listed in a recent edition of a Norwegian cycling magazine along with magnesium frames, 19 mm tyres pumped to 11 bar pressure and 7 other cycling things under the heading of «10 things we´re happy we got rid of». The comment: «what can we say? Mao and Mugabe also still has some followers.»

    That wasn’t my words, but just an outsider’s perspective: US cycling needs expert commentaries more known for cycling than doping. Everything else is self-destruction for the sport.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #116 on: August 21, 2019, 19:59 »
    One does get the impression there´s a bit of a vacuum in American cycling media, and cycling may be harming itself by letting those who created it fill it themselves.

    That wasn’t my words, but just an outsider’s perspective: US cycling needs expert commentaries more known for cycling than doping. Everything else is self-destruction for the sport.

    The "American" U.S. cycling media has done itself few favors over the years. They still think that hyping U.S. riders is their only way to engage their audience—as if sports like MMA haven't been growing consistently, and impressively, with a vast roster of international names. It's dumb and inexcusable the way so many of the mainstream publications fail to properly highlight the riders for whom English is a second language, or no language at all.

    Armstrong's emergence is certainly the result of a well-hatched plan of redemption, with an end-game that hasn't entirely revealed itself yet. I suspect that one of his next moves will be to position himself on Zwift. It's a growing market; he recently had Kristen Armstrong (no relation) on one his podcasts, and she's a spokesperson for Zwift, as is Robbie Ventura who rode for US Postal himself.

    Lance doesn't actually come across as all that bright in his own podcast. His predictions are rarely accurate, and he often sounds like someone who's been out of the sport for much longer than the calendar would reveal. The addition of Hincapie is what makes his podcast worth listening to. I've never been much of a fan of George, but his commentary puts you right inside the peloton. Unlike The Secret Pro, you actually learn things from George that you simply won't hear elsewhere.

    (Did you know that sprinters consider the cobbles on the right side of the Champs-Élysées to be rougher than the left side, and yet that's the line that Caleb Ewan took on his way to TdF glory?)

    But I digress....
    Most of the U.S cycling media still seems to view the sport from afar—both literally and figuratively—and rarely seems to have a finger on the true pulse of what's going on.

    Johan's emergence, while under the banner of Lance's podcast platform (Lance is not a part of Johan's podcast, btw) is really quite independent of any established media. In that sense, it's a sign of the times, and how new platforms allow for unfettered opinions, and long-form discussion.

    And as I've stated multiple times previously: Bruyneel's perspective offers a rare level of depth and insight, and I honestly couldn't care less about his past, in the context of learning from him in the present. I'm not buying into Lance's current "Every-man, Bro-dude" persona, but there's no such pretension or fabrication with Johan. His delivery is sincere, authentic, and brimming with new-found enthusiasm.

    Given that most of the current crop of top U.S. cyclists are utterly lacking in personality, and LeMond just isn't very well spoken (sorry, but he's just not), there really isn't anyone on the radar that's able to engage with an audience, besides the long-wornout figures of Bob Roll and others who's voices have their own inescapable attachments to the dark past.

    While watching the Tour of Utah, I had the choice of Todd Gogulski on TV, or Frankie Andreu on the Tour Tracker. Not exactly the dynamic duo, that's for sure. I've always enjoyed Todd's critical and experienced eye for the sport, but humor is not part of his arsenal. If he were teamed up with someone more lighthearted, it would probably go a long way in making the presentation more appealing. Frankie, on the other hand, just isn't very good as a commentator IMHO.

    I'm rambling now, and I'm not sure why  :P, so I'll conclude by just saying that with Johan behind the mic, I expect this to be the most informative and interesting Vuelta experience that I've had, (as long as I can get a decent video feed).
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #117 on: August 21, 2019, 21:04 »
    (Did you know that sprinters consider the cobbles on the right side of the Champs-Élysées to be rougher than the left side, and yet that's the line that Caleb Ewan took on his way to TdF glory?)
    Now that you mention it, I remember that the leading riders in the early part of the sprint would often/always be on the left side. I thought that was just because it's a better line through the right-hander onto the Champs. Smoother cobbles there compared to the right side would add another reason.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #118 on: August 21, 2019, 21:46 »
    Smoother cobbles there compared to the right side would add another reason.

    It also make for better imagery for that rider-level camera that follows the sprinters on the left side of the road during their final wind up.
     :cool
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Bruyneel
    « Reply #119 on: August 25, 2019, 11:53 »
    And the winner is...

    Víctor Hugo Peña

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  • « Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 02:41 by Drummer Boy »

     

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