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stereojet

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Claudio Cappuccino

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Re: Tom Danielson popped
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2015, 08:10 »
 :cool
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  • lancasterke

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 09:20 »


    https://twitter.com/tomdanielson/status/628077457665454080



    apart from the times I did take banned substances and admitted to it, and have served a ban for them.

    I put it to the forum, that if you can find a tainted batch of a supplement, that batch would suddenly become super valuable.
    so if a batch of xyz isolate protein powder contains synthetic testosterone. buy it, throw half away and take synthetic T.
    if you get popped, voila perfect excuse, no knowledge or negligence
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 09:29 »
    apart from the times I did take banned substances and admitted to it, and have served a ban for them.

    I put it to the forum, that if you can find a tainted batch of a supplement, that batch would suddenly become super valuable.
    so if a batch of xyz isolate protein powder contains synthetic testosterone. buy it, throw half away and take synthetic T.
    if you get popped, voila perfect excuse, no knowledge or negligence
    Interesting thought: does that also work for Aicar/Epo?

    One thing is nice, he was target tested for sure.

    Cheating lying :censored, even under oath this liar will do whatever it takes to save his own skin.
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  • lancasterke

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 10:00 »
    Interesting thought: does that also work for Aicar/Epo?



    yep, but there has to be a genuinely tainted batch of a supplement from a (moderately) reputable source.

    so the supplement has to be reasonable and apparently produced properly under FDA approved conditions or similar and genuinely contain enough of banned substance to cause a positive. this must not be a listed ingredient

    steroids are much more likely to be in supplements as it is believed that to help their products work, some manufacturers deliberately juice with substances not listed as ingredients.

    (I don't think EPO can be taken orally, may be digested and rendered useless by the digestive system, so wouldn't have a benefit or cause a positive, but not sure on this, but hypothetically, if an injected vaccine, or similar was found to be tainted with epo (just wouldn't happen) you could make sure you got vaccinated for dengue fever or whatever from the right batch and that would then be an excuse for an epo positive for a week or so.

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  • cj2002

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 10:20 »
    you could make sure you got vaccinated for dengue fever or whatever from the right batch and that would then be an excuse for an epo positive for a week or so.

    Given the state of some of the hotels the Tour visits each year, a vaccination against Dengue Fever might be a sensible move, whether or not it was contaminated with EPO...
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    AG

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #6 on: August 03, 2015, 10:56 »
    hmm

    so with the new WADA rules from 1 January.... what is the penalty for a 2nd offense?
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  • lancasterke

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #7 on: August 03, 2015, 11:11 »
    hmm

    so with the new WADA rules from 1 January.... what is the penalty for a 2nd offense?

    I'm not sure, that's all she wrote for TD. no coming back from this for a 37yo even if he got a 2yr ban that's game over, and unless he can get himself exonerated he'll get 4yrs plus i'd have thought
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  • AG

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #8 on: August 03, 2015, 11:17 »
    and interesting what it might mean to 'clean team' Garmin ... and JV
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #9 on: August 03, 2015, 11:17 »
    I'm not sure, that's all she wrote for TD. no coming back from this for a 37yo even if he got a 2yr ban that's game over, and unless he can get himself exonerated he'll get 4yrs plus i'd have thought

    I think the best he can hope for is to "clean up" his reputation. This is a career-ender for sure.
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    LukasCPH

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #10 on: August 03, 2015, 11:39 »
    and interesting what it might mean to 'clean team' Garmin ... and JV
    Yes, that will be interesting to follow.

    I can see three options right now:
    1) Tommy D is explained as part of the 'old guard' they took on in 2008 (Hesjedal, Millar, Zabriskie, Vandevelde), and with a contract that wouldn't have been extended anyway. Also, we all know the story how Tommy D was called out by JV during a training camp in the early days of the team - saying that 'one rider's values indicated doping'. He was said to stop after that; apparently he didn't stop completely. If Dan Martin, Talansky, Navardauskas or Moser had tested positive, that would be it for #tcg - but Tommy D? I'm not so sure.

    2) The current #tcg shuts down, and the riders with contracts for 2016 (Cardoso, Dombrowski, Howes, Langeveld, Moser, Navardauskas, Skjerping, Talansky, Zepuntke) get places at other pro teams, paid for by the #tcg sponsors. Sort of what Spidertech did in 2013.

    3) The current #tcg shuts down, JV steps away, and a new Team Cannondale[1] emerges like a phoenix from the ashes. They inherit riders, staff and sponsors from JV's team, and the team continues merrily. JV can either do something outside cycling - or start to set up a real breakaway from the UCI structure.
     1. I can't see them not being involved in a pro team, with Trek, Specialized etc. all having their marketing vehicles
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    L'arri

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #11 on: August 03, 2015, 12:28 »
    Less dramatic is the possibility that Danielson retires, the story about supplements (or whatever) rumbles on a bit and he gets a ban in absentia. The team continues as normal.

    Pro cycling is all about realpolitik nowadays: the big fear over doping seems no longer to offend anyone's scruples that much now that the CIRC-era is over. The sport's best bet is to be patient and take the long view while the scandalometer increases ever more towards hysteria in a few other sports.
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  • AG

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #12 on: August 03, 2015, 13:33 »
    lol

    article from June

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/sports/cycling/us-cyclists-fight-to-spread-their-message-were-clean.html?_r=2


    Quote
    Shortly after retiring, Vaughters launched a developmental cycling squad dedicated to ethical competition. That team has since evolved into Cannondale-Garmin. Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired. In 2007, his team voluntarily adopted the biological passport, an advanced blood-screening program, which the Union Cycliste Internationale, or U.C.I., cycling’s governing body, implemented the following year.

    Today, Cannondale-Garmin performs additional screening for performance-enhancing drugs, beyond what is required. In an effort to be transparent, Cannondale-Garmin has published the blood reports of its riders who have won races, including those of Ryder Hesjedal, who won the 2012 Giro d’Italia, one of cycling’s most prestigious races. In its 12-year history, Cannondale-Garmin has never had anyone test positive for doping while on the team and has managed to place six riders in the top ten of the Tour de France.

    “Yes, you can be competitive now, without doping. That’s 180 degrees different than when I was racing,” said Vaughters.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #13 on: August 03, 2015, 13:37 »
    article from June

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/sports/cycling/us-cyclists-fight-to-spread-their-message-were-clean.html?_r=2
    That would mean option 3, wouldn't it?

    Of course, it doesn't say that they have to stay fired ... they could be re-hired the next day (except for Danielson, of course). :shh
    I think there may be some legal issues with firing the whole team because of one rider's positive, too.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #14 on: August 03, 2015, 13:56 »
    Maybe he was just using the same chemist as Impey?

     :-x
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  • gooner

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #15 on: August 03, 2015, 15:12 »
    I welcome JV contributions on twitter and forums standing up for his team but vouching for all his riders with a blanket vote of confidence was always going to be a hard task to pull off when you have 20-30 riders on your roster and a revolving door where some riders come and leave each year. I don't care how much against doping you are, fellows can always slip through the radar. That goes for any team either now or in the future.

    Good riddance to Danielson.
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  • search

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    LukasCPH

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #17 on: August 03, 2015, 15:37 »
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #18 on: August 03, 2015, 15:38 »
    I think there may be some legal issues with firing the whole team because of one rider's positive, too.

    As long as it is in the contract I believe it is fine, it is probably not in the contracts that they took over from Cannondale though, so they will only use said clause if they are closing any how, as the one contract that is terrible on paper is the one Moser has.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #19 on: August 03, 2015, 17:57 »
    As long as it is in the contract I believe it is fine, it is probably not in the contracts that they took over from Cannondale though, so they will only use said clause if they are closing any how, as the one contract that is terrible on paper is the one Moser has.
    Would a clause like that be allowed to be in the contracts, though? I have my doubts.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #20 on: August 03, 2015, 18:03 »
    yep, but there has to be a genuinely tainted batch of a supplement from a (moderately) reputable source.

    so the supplement has to be reasonable and apparently produced properly under FDA approved conditions or similar and genuinely contain enough of banned substance to cause a positive. this must not be a listed ingredient

    steroids are much more likely to be in supplements as it is believed that to help their products work, some manufacturers deliberately juice with substances not listed as ingredients.

    (I don't think EPO can be taken orally, may be digested and rendered useless by the digestive system, so wouldn't have a benefit or cause a positive, but not sure on this, but hypothetically, if an injected vaccine, or similar was found to be tainted with epo (just wouldn't happen) you could make sure you got vaccinated for dengue fever or whatever from the right batch and that would then be an excuse for an epo positive for a week or so.

    Supplement mfr's don't have much oversight from the FDA - I think like next to none or none. Cross contamination, I am pretty sure is likely more common than not. Remember - the supplement market is dealing with uncontrolled substances - NOT controlled substances. I think that validates what you are saying - like for steroids. I would not put it past a supplement mfr to intentionally contaminate, either. (Like what you are saying).

    Somebody else mentioned contamination w/ epo - i think they are right - the synthetics have to be injected - but I'm no expert. However, worth mentioning that dong quai also has a real blood-boosting effect - and it is strictly an oral taken application. Well - I suppose you could inject - but that isn't how it is used, nor how it was used in the clinical tests that showed effect (but also I'm going on memory of those published results)
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  • Eeyore sez . . .

    hiero

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #21 on: August 03, 2015, 18:05 »
    Or rather, no Tommy D in Utah:
    https://twitter.com/nealrogers/status/628212656940257280

    good - if it were the whole team - the pr indication would be that the team believed TD to be guilty.
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  • lancasterke

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #22 on: August 03, 2015, 18:12 »
    As long as it is in the contract I believe it is fine, it is probably not in the contracts that they took over from Cannondale though, so they will only use said clause if they are closing any how, as the one contract that is terrible on paper is the one Moser has.

    contracts must be reasonable to be enforceable, employment contracts even more so (possibly the riders aren't employees at all but subcontracted services contracts but that's another issue).

    If it's reasonable that a positive causes sponsor withdrawl, causes team bankruptcy casues all to lose their jobs, then this would be appear to be a reasonable clause.....
    however, these teams have to file a guarentee from a bank with the UCI to guarentee rider wages before the season, so it doesn't appear reasonable that 1 team member getting sacked for doping would neccesitate the team closing mid season.

    ending the contracts early at year end (for guys with another year to run) might be possible/reasonable as no sponsor, means no guarentee, means no licence means no team to ride for
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  • pastronef

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #23 on: August 03, 2015, 22:47 »
    https://www.twitter.com/AdamMyerson/status/628313323491196928

    wow
    today has been batsh*t crazy on twitter

    total madness

    the tweets included: his ex wife and his girfriend, his doorbell, the guy he gave the finger too, vaughters shutting down the team, Impey's pharmacist, david millar, talansky hatred towards Di Luca, eskimo heritage, and many other things
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  • Kiwirider

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #24 on: August 03, 2015, 23:46 »
    Yes, that will be interesting to follow.

    I can see three options right now:

    3) The current #tcg shuts down, JV steps away, and a new Team Cannondale[1]
     1. I can't see them not being involved in a pro team, with Trek, Specialized etc. all having their marketing vehicles

    Except, bear in mind that the Dorel Sports division has been seeing decreasing returns each of the past few years.

    If I was sitting on the board and was faced with those financial results and a positive test in one of the more high profile advertising spends, I'd start asking questions.

    Remember that, at the same time, Cannondale is getting good - and ostensibly clean - results from its MTB teams (XC and enduro).

    Admittedly I don't have their segmented sales and profitability to look at, but given the longer term relative stagnation in the road bike market globally, the higher profile and interest in MTB racing and the fact that dirt riders aren't overpaid like as highly paid as roadies,  I'd be looking to spend my money somewhere else ...
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  • Kiwirider

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #25 on: August 03, 2015, 23:51 »
    Supplement mfr's don't have much oversight from the FDA - I think like next to none or none. Cross contamination, I am pretty sure is likely more common than not. Remember - the supplement market is dealing with uncontrolled substances - NOT controlled substances. I think that validates what you are saying - like for steroids. I would not put it past a supplement mfr to intentionally contaminate, either. (Like what you are saying).

    Now, if you know that - and you're just a weekend warrior like the rest of us - don't you think that a professional sports person would also know that?

    Add in the fact that they are employed by a team who makes a big fuss about being clean and has medical and nutritional professionals who advise the team that there'd be even less of a risk of an accidental ingestion of contaminated product?

    And as someone who has already been down the suspension route once in their career, wouldn't you be extra careful and doing all that you could to avoid those unregulated products?

    Which is all a long way of calling "bullsh*t!!" on any argument of tainted supplements ....
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  • Kiwirider

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #26 on: August 04, 2015, 00:03 »
    Stuff about contracts

    Odds on chance, the sponsorship contract will have a clause allowing for immediate termination in the case of a major "fault" (wrong word - but I'm a bit brain dead today and it's been a couple of years since I last drafted or negotiated a contract, so the word isn't springing immediately to mind).

    Usually these clauses are written as inclusive - to give the maximum flexibility - but also specify the most significant causes for termination. The do this so that the parties can highlight certain factors that are important to them each - in this case, the clear deal breakers.

    Given the profile of the team and its stated policy, plus the comment about Cannondale's stated desire to pull out if there's a positive, it is highly likely that this would be specified. (Also remember that Cannondale is now Canadian, and folks here still haven't got over Ben Johnson - reinforcing the likelihood of termination.)

    As a result of these type of terms, the effects of this clause are likely to be mirrored in any employment or service contracts (I don't know whether the riders are employees or contractors).

    If the riders are contractors, then it's a simple matter of termination on notice.

    If they are employee's then in practice there's likely no greater protection. Effectively they become redundant if the sponsor disappears - just like a bankrupt company's employees. Given the nature of the industry, there would be few courts who would uphold any claims against a termination for a drug related reason - whether of the whole team or an individual.

    The only factor to overlay is the impact of the UCI rules - which I understand will keep the riders paid, if not actually "employed" until season's end ...

    Oh, and Lancasterke - reasonableness is a factor in contract interpretation, but it's more tightly defined and has a higher threshold than people would assign in day to day conversation.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #27 on: August 04, 2015, 00:24 »
    I dunno (Americanism) why anyone is surprised. Doper.

    Goodbye bald, old American, take the other one with you.

    But to be fair, baldy Vuelta has got away with it, shows just how things work.



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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #28 on: August 04, 2015, 07:35 »
    Supplement mfr's don't have much oversight from the FDA - I think like next to none or none. Cross contamination, I am pretty sure is likely more common than not. Remember - the supplement market is dealing with uncontrolled substances - NOT controlled substances. I think that validates what you are saying - like for steroids. I would not put it past a supplement mfr to intentionally contaminate, either. (Like what you are saying).

    Somebody else mentioned contamination w/ epo - i think they are right - the synthetics have to be injected - but I'm no expert. However, worth mentioning that dong quai also has a real blood-boosting effect - and it is strictly an oral taken application. Well - I suppose you could inject - but that isn't how it is used, nor how it was used in the clinical tests that showed effect (but also I'm going on memory of those published results)
    Good thing then Garmin have a sponsor who test supplements for money ;)
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  • lancasterke

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #29 on: August 04, 2015, 11:17 »
    contracts contd.
    i think we agree
    I'm sure sponsors can leave and require their images, trade marks etc removed, because of morality clause/ death or disgrace clause or even doping listed as a specific breach.

    my only point was that the staff would likely be ok til season end, as finances are guaranteed for just this purpose.

    I believe that (in England) a court would think it an unreasonable clause to instantly dismiss all employees if 1 employee misbehaves, given that the finances will remain in place for some non negligible period of time.

    there's still a good chance that the team folds in october and everyone is unemployeed, but these guys will get paid through the year and I'd expect to see them on the start line on the vuelta, even if they're sponsorless
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