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AG

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Re: Tom Danielson popped
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2015, 11:48 »
what do we think the chances are that the sponsors do pull out over this?
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #31 on: August 04, 2015, 12:11 »
    what do we think the chances are that the sponsors do pull out over this?

    Cannondale - no way. They need the marketing, and they co-own the set-up. Plus, Danielson is a carry-over and not a Cannondale hire. They could spin their way out of it if it comes to that.

    Garmin - if they stuck by JV and the team around the time of the Armstrong dossier and associated bans for Danielson, VDV, Zabriskie and JV himself (among others that I've forgotten), surely they won't ditch the team now. But then... perhaps JV was able to spin those things as happening in a different era, and that Slipstream was a second chance team. Garmin may not be so keen on a third chance for Tommy D.

    Others - I can't see any other sponsors on the list who are either a) irreplaceable - a team can always wear Nalini instead of Castelli, or use Campag instead of Mavic wheels; or b) mega-rich. A Tinkov, Bakala or Rihs would be a major loss. Small firms probably not so much.
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #33 on: August 04, 2015, 17:37 »
    Strangely he doestn even wait for the B-sample?

    A man a word a Vaughters.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #34 on: August 06, 2015, 00:59 »
    Now, if you know that - and you're just a weekend warrior like the rest of us - don't you think that a professional sports person would also know that?

    Add in the fact that they are employed by a team who makes a big fuss about being clean and has medical and nutritional professionals who advise the team that there'd be even less of a risk of an accidental ingestion of contaminated product?

    And as someone who has already been down the suspension route once in their career, wouldn't you be extra careful and doing all that you could to avoid those unregulated products?

    Which is all a long way of calling "bullsh*t!!" on any argument of tainted supplements ....

    Of course they know what I do - or I assume that most would. Given, also, that many are young, and many are not necessarily the brightest bulbs on the tree.

    But the thing is - you take a supplement because you want to achieve something - if nothing more than helping your body do better, what it is supposed to do. And if you take a supplement you have to, at some point, TRUST the mfr. So you go on name, on reputation, on how professional the packaging looks - on whatever basis you can get. But how many of us carry around portable testing labs? Or are qualified to use them? Poops, man - people trust the grocery store and get contaminated food it seems like every day! And that pipeline IS checked.

    Running a team is not carte blanche - I don't know if every rider can go to the med staff and request a check on some new supplement they are interested in. I would be willing to bet that, EVEN IF the med staff have a list of approved supplements (and I think Vaughters might have gone that far), even if they do, I would bet they haven't retested those supplements since they got approved. And do you not follow the news enough to recall that we have heard before of VALID cross-contamination complaints? So mfr A gets it together quality-wise for a few runs, and then hires a new supervisor, and the heat is on to produce 'cause profits are off at the mo'. Sure and don't try and tell me things like that don't happen.

    But go on, don't believe, I have no problem with that. I only ask that skepticism be retained - in BOTH directions. Both in favor, AND against. Don't go being all skeptical in one direction - 'cause it ain't fair. On the other hand - if you've got something against fairness?    (Hey, how is THAT for a good pseudological redirect!  ?  :D )
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    hiero

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #35 on: August 06, 2015, 01:03 »
    btw - any new news on the TD snap? I dropped in to see if anybody heard anything - as what I've heard does not sound positive - like JV's tweet quoted above.  Sounds to me like JV thinks he is guilty.
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  • AG

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #36 on: August 06, 2015, 01:59 »
    yep sounds like they are 'moving on' ...  not bothering to wait for the b sample before cutting him loose


    Danny Pate's twitter was funny.  any other pro's said much?
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #37 on: August 06, 2015, 05:34 »
    btw - any new news on the TD snap? I dropped in to see if anybody heard anything - as what I've heard does not sound positive - like JV's tweet quoted above.  Sounds to me like JV thinks he is guilty.
    Well ... skepticism is good, in all directions. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if he 'did it' voluntarily and knowingly. That he may or may not have some tainted supplement in his bedroom drawer as a handy excuse doesn't change that.
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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #38 on: August 06, 2015, 06:54 »
    Just read this and understand why I am pretty pleased he got popped for perhaps the stupidest PED around:

    http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Danielson,+Tom+Affidavit.pdf

    A born liar.
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  • stereojet

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #39 on: August 06, 2015, 08:23 »
    Yup, I've gotta say I'm enjoying TD's downfall.
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #40 on: August 06, 2015, 08:48 »
    yep sounds like they are 'moving on' ...  not bothering to wait for the b sample before cutting him loose


    Danny Pate's twitter was funny.  any other pro's said much?

    I was disappointed that he stopped at number 3. I wanted to see the top 2 excuses!
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  • lancasterke

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #41 on: August 06, 2015, 08:54 »

    A man a word a Vaughters.

    He's not Wee-bey, that's for sure, "my word be my word"


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  • hiero

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #42 on: August 06, 2015, 15:09 »
    I like #6, myself.

    Link for y'all so you don't have to google it: https://twitter.com/thedpate

    And this little note: https://instagram.com/p/5D6Wx8QNdJ/

    Sure looks like TD is not getting much love. Well, if that's the way it be? Then that is the way it be. Que sera, sera in another generation's urban dictionary.

    I heartily disagree with the "once a liar, always . . ." thinking. People can and do fix their eph-ups, all the time. And sometimes people that never got caught in a lie before get caught - so the "once -- always" just doesn't hold much water for me.

    And, you know, one of the things that makes me want to be give TD the benefit of the doubt is the very fact that he IS surrounded by a team organization I believe has made the strongest effort to run a clean outfit - and done so honestly. The very thing that for kiwirider adds weight to TD's likely guilt - since if the tainted supplement is bs - then what else is there, eh?

    But if it was intentional, it is just difficult for me to fathom how one person could be so stupid. This would make Floyd look like a Mensan. Not something I've ever accused Floyd of before, you can bet on that. It would be right up there with Tammy.

    Oh - one more thing. If we EVER did find that JV and team is guilty of intentional doping? Afaic, pro cycling would score the same on my scale as the WWE. Somewhere at the bottom of the round file.
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  • AG

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #43 on: August 07, 2015, 01:52 »
    I do not think this is a team thing.   I do not think that JV encourages or enables his team to dope.  I dont even think he looks the other way ...

    I do think that TD did this.  Fully, knowingly, intentionally ...  but IMO most likely without the knowledge or assistance of his team.
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  • Kiwirider

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #44 on: August 07, 2015, 02:35 »
    Stuff about supplement manufacturers

    You are missing the point ...

    Yes, there are contaminated supplements out there - never said that there weren't.

    As a result, there are lots of sources of information available to sports people that strongly advise them against any form of supplements - and that also advise them on how to get anything checked if they are thinking of taking something.

    Other sources list a whole range of products not to take and terms that are on packaging that are a strong sign to avoid products (eg., "FDA approved", "non-anabolic ingredients")

    I found some of these with a very simple google search "supplements contaminated banned substance" - so even the dimmest bulbs that you referred to could find similar information.

    In the instant case, you should also have a look at Cannondale-Garmin's sponsors. There's a company that specialises in providing nutritional advice and nutritional products to athletes and two supplement/sports nutrition product manufacturers. Given JV's position on drugs, I will lay an odds on bet that these companies were gone over with a fine tooth comb before being brought on board - as will have their manufacturing processes and products they sell (either their own or other brands).
    I'm therefore surmising - and I freely admit that it's surmising - that there would be few teams in professional cycling whose riders are more aware of the risks of products and who have more ability to avoid contaminated supplements than Garmin.

    So, yes, I do still call bullsh*t and no, it's not being skeptical - it's reading facts as I know them, applying general knowledge and then reasoning to reach a conclusion. It just so happens that my conclusion is contrary to what you want to believe is the case.

    But go on, don't believe, I have no problem with that. I only ask that skepticism be retained - in BOTH directions. Both in favor, AND against. Don't go being all skeptical in one direction - 'cause it ain't fair. On the other hand - if you've got something against fairness?    (Hey, how is THAT for a good pseudological redirect!  ?  :D )

    BTW - I am confused by this comment.

    You clearly think that I am being skeptical against claims by riders that they made innocent choices whereby the situation came out against them - or at least that's how I interpret your comment.

    So, what's the other direction that I should be skeptical in? That their claims are correct and - by necessary inference - their teams and the various ADA's are conspiring against them??
    I hope that I'm misinterpreting what you're saying and that this isn't your case - as it sounds very much like the "Austin, Texas Defence" (if you know what I mean ....)!
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  • « Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 14:21 by Kiwirider »

    just some guy

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #45 on: August 07, 2015, 07:55 »
    I said on Twitter I think JV went to USADA and got TD popped, great way to win sponsors look we do stand up for what we believe

    Ps Garmin deal is up end of the year no idea if they re-up or not especially since most of the team don't use Garmin bike computers anyway :lol

    ok so tin hat off

    but this is what you get for not making individuals pay for their own doping, USADA report was all Lance and JB's fault,  no one has taken real ownership oftheir own doping.

    This was always going to happen amazing it took 10 years, can't put that many peoplein a team and not expect a cheat
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #46 on: August 07, 2015, 08:27 »
    I said on Twitter I think JV went to USADA and got TD popped, great way to win sponsors look we do stand up for what we believe

    Now that would be interesting, and very good for the sport. If true TD will be peeed though.

    In the instant case, you should also have a look at CannondGarmin sponsors. There's a company that specialises in providing nutritional advice and nutritional products to athletes and two supplement/sports nutrition product manufacturers. Given JV's position on drugs, I will lay an odds on bet that these companies were gone over with a fine tooth comb before being brought on board - as will have their manufacturing processes and products they sell (either their own or other brands).
    I'm therefore surmising - and I freely admit that it's surmising - that there would be few teams in professional cycling whose riders are more aware of the risks of products and who have more ability to avoid contaminated supplements than Garmin.

    So, yes, I do still call bullsh*t and no, it's not being skeptical - it's reading facts as I know them, applying general knowledge and then reasoning to reach a conclusion. It just so happens that my conclusion is contrary to what you want to believe is the case.

    I suppose this explains some of why JV sort of through him under the bus, since his defense potentially could hurt the sponsors.
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  • pastronef

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #47 on: August 07, 2015, 10:17 »
    I said on Twitter I think JV went to USADA and got TD popped, great way to win sponsors look we do stand up for what we believe

    Ps Garmin deal is up end of the year no idea if they re-up or not especially since most of the team don't use Garmin bike computers anyway :lol



    no, they use Garmin bike computers
    they ditched the Vector pedals, but they keep on using the Garmin bike computers
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  • pastronef

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #48 on: August 07, 2015, 10:29 »
    I said on Twitter I think JV went to USADA and got TD popped, great way to win sponsors look we do stand up for what we believe



    whoah!  :o  did not think about that!
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  • hiero

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #49 on: August 07, 2015, 14:23 »
    . . . have a look at CannondGarmin sponsors. There's a company that specialises in providing nutritional advice and nutritional products to athletes and two supplement/sports nutrition product manufacturers.
    . . . happens that my conclusion is contrary to what you want to believe is the case. . . .

     . . . BTW - I am confused by this comment.

    You clearly think that I am being skeptical against claims by riders that they made innocent choices whereby the situation came out against them - . . .

    So, what's the other direction that I should be skeptical in? That their claims are correct and - by necessary inference - their teams and the various ADA's are conspiring against them?? . . .

    Nice reply - thank you for explaining your case more clearly. While I have heard someone else mention that one of the C-G sponsors is a nutritional supplement mfr and/or advising group - I did not know who that was and had not had the time or desire to go check that out. I figure you guys know what you are talking about around here. So today I took your advice, and invested the few minutes it took to Google the C-G sponsor list and scroll down the page. Ok, got it.

    So I will move on to the "pseudological" and "skeptical" in just a sec - but I want to be clear on one thing first. I do not want TD specifically to be innocent. Nor would I be willing to sweep anything under the rug, should it become known. TD is meaningless to me as an individual, and what I've seen of his character through media coverage (including social media) - I don't even particularly like the guy. Of course, I am still at a distance, so I also know I don't know the guy. So I am not trying to say TD is innocent here.

    Which brings me to my little attempt at humor at the end of the post. Sorry it didn't come off well! The comment about fairness is a mild form of logical redirection. As such, it qualifies as a logical fallacy - or a rhetological fallacy (I love that term) as nicely done up in poster format here:
    http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/rhetological-fallacies/
    I think it falls somewhere in the "perfectionist" or "false dilemma" range - but using it seriously would be a trolling attack on your character, rather than a serious attempt at discussion. Which is why, when I put it in, I added the smiley and the text comment to make sure it was clearly meant as humor - a friendly poke to create a small laugh and facilitate thought and conversation. If you have to explain it, its not funny, eh? Ah, well, I'll try again another day.

    But on to the skepticism. As I said, I am not trying to say TD is innocent, nor do I want him personally to be innocent. What I was trying to say was he isn't guilty yet. I don't mind thinking his claim is probably BS, but I do not think it fair to call it BS without more evidence than one strike against.  Which is why I said be skeptical both ways - not only of TD's protestation of innocence, but also of the claim against him.

    Now, I will add you have altered my outlook somewhat. Although I was pretty sure C-G probably went to lengths internally to insure their riders had whatever supplements as would be legal and good for the rider, I was not aware of the full list of sponsors. And thus was not aware of the possible resources those sponsors might bring. And I have to admit, that does make things look darker for TD. The way you put it, it makes it pretty solid that there are two strikes against TD, and not just one (the positive test).

    Frankly, though, I am hoping that TD will find a way to convince the testers of his case. If he doesn't - well, that is why we have them doing that job. I don't care about TD, nor do I even care for C-G that much, but I do believe C-G have honestly attempted to make a stab at running the sport cleanly, and I hate to see that attempt sullied.

    And, if he does prove out guilty, I also would be in utter awe at the jaw-dropping level of self-deception to believe he could get away with something like this. Or his inability to face the reality of his limits. Like I said earlier, that would be mind-boggling to me, on par with a Tammy Thomas level of self-deception/stupidity.

    I feel more like the kid who said "Say it ain't so, Joe!", than I do like the lies and nastiness that STILL come out of Austin. I mean, can you believe the latest nasty tweet from LA to JV? Appalling.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #50 on: August 07, 2015, 15:25 »
    One more quick note: If they do settle on a guilty verdict when this is done? It should be a lifetime ban this time. I get tired of this - - manure.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #51 on: August 07, 2015, 15:43 »
    I said on Twitter I think JV went to USADA and got TD popped, great way to win sponsors look we do stand up for what we believe



    This is my thought, something I strongly hinted at but for various reasons didnt say out straight.

    this looks like a target test, and if so its either via the steroidal module of the ABP, or via internal monitoring. Either way, Ive a hunch the team would have known about it assuming they have access to TD's ABP data which im assuming they do.

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #52 on: August 07, 2015, 16:31 »
    no, they use Garmin bike computers
    they ditched the Vector pedals, but they keep on using the Garmin bike computers

    no most riders use Sram
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  • l29205

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #53 on: August 07, 2015, 17:11 »
    One more quick note: If they do settle on a guilty verdict when this is done? It should be a lifetime ban this time. I get tired of this - - manure.

    I suspect that the B sample will be positive but he will get a 4 year ban which should be career ending.  The whole supplement thing is just BS and everyone knows it.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #54 on: August 07, 2015, 18:06 »
    This is my thought, something I strongly hinted at but for various reasons didnt say out straight.

    this looks like a target test, and if so its either via the steroidal module of the ABP, or via internal monitoring. Either way, Ive a hunch the team would have known about it assuming they have access to TD's ABP data which im assuming they do.
    We dont need David Walsh on the matter when someone has tested positive for synthetic T to know someone is target tested. Or am I just two steps in front thinking wise? No one gets that test, no one, if there arent real suspicions on the guy. And, as a statistics man as well, what would be the odds an old dom like Tommy D. - who has whon the Tour of flipping nothing Utah twice in a row - would target for this sh!t race as well?

    Guess what? They will never catch Homer though. And that, my friends, is pro cycling.

    not when this moron is in charge:



    I keep asking that on twitter but I think he is not going to answer me...

    Alex Zanardi is so interesting - yes, his crash was terrible, and his loss of his legs was terrible but he is still alive isnt he- ?
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  • pastronef

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #55 on: August 07, 2015, 20:13 »
    no most riders use Sram

    cannondale-garmin use ?Sram?
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #56 on: August 08, 2015, 00:45 »
    I like Cookson. His intentions are in the right place.
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  • AG

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #57 on: August 08, 2015, 01:15 »


    Frankly, though, I am hoping that TD will find a way to convince the testers of his case. If he doesn't - well, that is why we have them doing that job. I don't care about TD, nor do I even care for C-G that much, but I do believe C-G have honestly attempted to make a stab at running the sport cleanly, and I hate to see that attempt sullied.

    And, if he does prove out guilty, I also would be in utter awe at the jaw-dropping level of self-deception to believe he could get away with something like this. Or his inability to face the reality of his limits. Like I said earlier, that would be mind-boggling to me, on par with a Tammy Thomas level of self-deception/stupidity.


    sorry - but a guy who has already shown to have lied for a very long period of his career, and only got caught / forced into admission towards the end ... and not really punished -  that person for mine doesnt get much benefit of the doubt after testing posative this time.

    There is no way in the world I buy the contaminated supplement story (if that indeed is what he claims)
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #58 on: August 08, 2015, 09:18 »
    And, if he does prove out guilty, I also would be in utter awe at the jaw-dropping level of self-deception to believe he could get away with something like this. Or his inability to face the reality of his limits. Like I said earlier, that would be mind-boggling to me, on par with a Tammy Thomas level of self-deception/stupidity.
    The human mind is capable of amazing feats of self-deception and denial of reality. ;)
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Tom Danielson popped
    « Reply #59 on: August 08, 2015, 09:40 »
    I like Cookson. His intentions are in the right place.
    If he wants to clean up cycling - at least thats what he sold to the world - he should take on the past first.

    2007/2008: CERA re-testing
    2009: Aicar/GW3221212343 - or something like that - testing

    to begin with

    When you dont take care of the skeletons in your closet you cant move on, imho.
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