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hiero

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Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2016, 15:42 »
I tweeted Cookson that he needed to speak today, and ACT tomorrow - anything else is unconscionable.

So this is the press release today.
Quote

The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) is extremely saddened to learn about the passing of Belgian rider Antoine Demoitié of Wanty-Groupe Gobert.

"Antoine will be truly missed", said UCI President Brian Cookson. "Our thoughts are with his family, friends and team."

The UCI will cooperate with all relevant authorities to investigate the circumstances of this tragic incident.
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci-statement-antoine-demoitie/

Pitiful, in my book. If he was going to say something, this was the absolute bare minimum.
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    Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #31 on: March 28, 2016, 15:57 »
    Having read a couple of reports of yesterdays incident it sounds like the Moto driver might be less to blame for the incident than the ones that have been involved in the other non fatal incidents over the last year.

    It has got me thinking what could there be in a set of written rules for moto drivers at races. If not passing should there be a minimum distance in front or behind a group that they should maintain. When passing a group should they stay a minimum lateral distance away (hard to do on narrow and windy roads and also if a rider swings across the road after taking there turn on the front).
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  • hiero

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    hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #33 on: March 28, 2016, 16:56 »
    Having read a couple of reports of yesterdays incident it sounds like the Moto driver might be less to blame for the incident than the ones that have been involved in the other non fatal incidents over the last year.

    It has got me thinking what could there be in a set of written rules for moto drivers at races. If not passing should there be a minimum distance in front or behind a group that they should maintain. When passing a group should they stay a minimum lateral distance away (hard to do on narrow and windy roads and also if a rider swings across the road after taking there turn on the front).

    Have you read the Neal Rogers op-ed piece yet? AG linked it.

    great article by Neal Rogers

    http://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/commentary-gent-wevelgem-fatality-a-tragedy-that-has-been-a-long-time-coming/

    I think he is saying it ls less rules that will be helpful - rather it is experienced drivers. I have to agree.

    I also think that swapping out some of the camera motos for drones will ease the pressure - but that is a bleeding edge tech introduction. And thus, more likely a long term innovation.

    To do something today they could hire a core of experienced drivers. Limit close-in movement to those drivers. That core goes from race to race, and holds teaching and safety sessions before and during. Initiate intimate moto-squadron communication, and incorporate active rider tracking inside every moto vehicle that is in contact with the peloton. Even if they had to do a centralized command tracking center to do traffic control. I would think a distributed system would work better. But a centralized system might be easier to set up - you only need one tracking screen - and that could have a big pipe attached to insure data flow. Remote vehicles might have data update issues.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #34 on: March 28, 2016, 17:38 »
    I tweeted Cookson that he needed to speak today, and ACT tomorrow - anything else is unconscionable.

    So this is the press release today. http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci-statement-antoine-demoitie/

    Pitiful, in my book. If he was going to say something, this was the absolute bare minimum.

     Out of interest, what would you have had him say?

    Seems a perfectly reasonable response at this juncture. 
    Sympathy and condolences are far more appropriate today, than any half baked, "political" declaration of war on motor vehicles.
    For me, the brief, final line covers it for now.

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #35 on: March 28, 2016, 17:46 »
    If he was going to say something, this was the absolute bare minimum.
    That's what the UCI always says and does: The bare minimum.
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    hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #36 on: March 28, 2016, 17:58 »
    Out of interest, what would you have had him say?

    Seems a perfectly reasonable response at this juncture. 
    Sympathy and condolences are far more appropriate today, than any half baked, "political" declaration of war on motor vehicles.
    For me, the brief, final line covers it for now.

    If this was a one-off incident, yes, I would agree. And I've stood up to object before when people expect what I think is too much from Cookson or others in the spotlight. And maybe you are right, and a minimum with condolences is the most appropriate for today. But if Cookson / UCI don't come out with a more thorough statement within, oh, let's say a week, then afaic, they will be dropping the ball.

    In this case, some sign of awareness of the large number of incidents we have been seeing, and some proposal to act to change the pattern.

    BTW - fwiw, apparently even having just experienced moto drivers would not have helped in this incident - so maybe back to the rules. Latest news says the driver in this case was a moto driver with 20 years of race experience.

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/journalist-moto-driver-couldnt-avoid-demoitie_400022

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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #37 on: March 28, 2016, 18:13 »
    Have you read the Neal Rogers op-ed piece yet? AG linked it.

    I think he is saying it ls less rules that will be helpful - rather it is experienced drivers. I have to agree.

    I also think that swapping out some of the camera motos for drones will ease the pressure - but that is a bleeding edge tech introduction. And thus, more likely a long term innovation.

    To do something today they could hire a core of experienced drivers. Limit close-in movement to those drivers. That core goes from race to race, and holds teaching and safety sessions before and during. Initiate intimate moto-squadron communication, and incorporate active rider tracking inside every moto vehicle that is in contact with the peloton. Even if they had to do a centralized command tracking center to do traffic control. I would think a distributed system would work better. But a centralized system might be easier to set up - you only need one tracking screen - and that could have a big pipe attached to insure data flow. Remote vehicles might have data update issues.

    I have now.

    To my reading he sort of suggests a combination of the two routes of experienced riders and more regulation

    but he does say this on the regulation side of things

    "Here are a few suggestions, to get the discussion started. A more stringent caravan licensing system is needed. No one should be permitted to drive in a WorldTour race without having previously been in a vehicle during a WorldTour race. There must be a limit on the number of vehicles on course. There must be a mandated minimum amount of space between motos and riders. There should be a limit on the speed at which motorbikes can pass riders."

    The first part of which is easily doable but then the suggestions about mandated space and speeds would be hard to apply in certain circumstances on the road without some cooperation between riders and motos
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #38 on: March 28, 2016, 18:51 »
     Neal Rogers definitely has a point with regard to having a core of well trained experienced drivers.
    However, this clearly wasn't a factor in yesterday's tragedy, given the rider had 32 years on the job.
    I'm not sure how drones fit into the equation.
    They may at some point be able to replace tv bikes, but they aren't going to me much good at carrying commies, medics, neutral service mechanics etc.
    I think we tend to fixate on tv bikes, but in reality there are never more than 3 or 4 in a race and have never, to the best of my knowledge been directly involved with taking riders out.
    Yes, they are a bit of a headache on fast, technical descents, but drones can't do the job.
    The only solution there is stick to helicopter shots if possible, or no coverage at all, if not.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #39 on: March 28, 2016, 19:18 »
     I remembered Egoi Martinez had a coming together with a motobike, Pais Vasco.
    Turns out it was stage 5 in 2007. I can't find any video footage, but there is a report:
     
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/injury-report-part-three/

    However, when looking, I came across this footage from Pais Vasco in 2008. No crash but certainly an eye opener.
    Not such a new phenomenon.

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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #40 on: March 28, 2016, 19:24 »
    Neal Rogers definitely has a point with regard to having a core of well trained experienced drivers.
    However, this clearly wasn't a factor in yesterday's tragedy, given the rider had 32 years on the job.
    I'm not sure how drones fit into the equation.
    They may at some point be able to replace tv bikes, but they aren't going to me much good at carrying commies, medics, neutral service mechanics etc.
    I think we tend to fixate on tv bikes, but in reality there are never more than 3 or 4 in a race and have never, to the best of my knowledge been directly involved with taking riders out.
    Yes, they are a bit of a headache on fast, technical descents, but drones can't do the job.
    The only solution there is stick to helicopter shots if possible, or no coverage at all, if not.

    1st point - likely true - at least for the next few years. Drones can carry "stuff", but you couldn't have one per team, or you would have an air traffic nightmare.

    2nd point - tv motos not the ones at fault in accidents? I have no idea if this is the case or not. Interesting point. But still, removing even a couple of motos might help reduce the traffic congestion. Or it may be insufficient to have an impact. Good point tho.

    3rd point - now this is precisely where I would disagree. A drone can be designed to whatever specs you want. Good descent coverage might even involve a "crew" of drones, each providing a segment of coverage. On a descent, in particular, a drone, not occupying road space, could be an advantage to the echelon. But this point is minor, imo, compared to your 2nd point - i.e. "how many vehicles could be replaced, and how much impact would that have?" 

    Another big concern would be the safety of the spectating crowds. Drones are air traffic, and crowds and air traffic are a sensitive point with regulators, with some reason. I believe this can, and will, be managed, but the regulators get pretty uptight on this topic.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #41 on: March 28, 2016, 20:22 »
     Well, I bow to your far superior knowledge of drones. ;)

     Across most English speaking cycling form, this subject has generated much debate.
    A lot of the conversation has been in generalised terms, but the consensus is that moto bikes numbers have to be reduced, since their numbers have drastically increased of late, resulting in a spate of accidents.
    I now offer Milan-San Remo 1992 into evidence:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqEnvZ1ynng&feature=youtu.be&t=81

     I have a theory nagging away at the back of my head. Most of these recent accidents seem to be occurring on wide, open roads where motos are free to pass between groups.
    Could the recent (last decade or so) trend to smother urban areas in traffic calming measures be contributing to the problem by severely limiting passing options?
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  • Armchair Cyclist

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #42 on: March 28, 2016, 22:42 »
    Marcel Kittel speaks well, without really suggesting anything very concrete.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #43 on: March 28, 2016, 23:59 »
    Well, I bow to your far superior knowledge of drones. ;)

     Across most English speaking cycling form, this subject has generated much debate.
    A lot of the conversation has been in generalised terms, but the consensus is that moto bikes numbers have to be reduced, since their numbers have drastically increased of late, resulting in a spate of accidents.
    I now offer Milan-San Remo 1992 into evidence:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqEnvZ1ynng&feature=youtu.be&t=81

     I have a theory nagging away at the back of my head. Most of these recent accidents seem to be occurring on wide, open roads where motos are free to pass between groups.
    Could the recent (last decade or so) trend to smother urban areas in traffic calming measures be contributing to the problem by severely limiting passing options?

    Interesting. Lovely clip, thank you. David Duffield? announcing? "Flea on a dog". Ok then!

    Traffic calming measures contributory? Hmmmm. I do not have numbers, but I think there is consensus that:
    1. the numbers in the peloton, competing at the end, in the past few years is greater
    2. the dollars at stake are greater all the way around
    3. the peloton is riding harder throughout the full extent of a race, and this IS contributing to late-race accidents

    The numbers in the peloton present - that factor alone would contribute greatly to a difficulty in passing.

    Once again, you have broached an interesting and intelligent aspect of the phenomenon.
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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #44 on: March 29, 2016, 00:02 »
    in Danish media, Jakob Fuglsang blamed both, the motorcyclists, but also the riders, for the increased amount of accidents:

    Quote
    (google translated)

    "Overall, I think that motorcycles traveling too fast and too irresponsible. You can just look at the many crashes in recent times. Hopefully this will help that there are some rules that can put an end to some of it. It could be that motorcyclists need some training to be allowed to move in the field, it seems as though there could well be needed. "

    Jakob Fuglsang also points inwards and points out that the riders have a responsibility to avoid collisions with motorcycles.

    "I think there is a little lacking respect between riders in the field. Many of the older riders are also talking about that it is getting worse and there will not be passed by the doors, and sometimes it all an unfortunate end. It is clear that when it's running, it's running, but that is not worth risking his life for. "

    "There needs to be more respect for both the riders from, but also from the bikes and their cameras. They run close, close to the field and is also helping to create dangerous situations because the riders trying to catch slip wind behind it, so instead of driving 50 mph suddenly running 60 km per hour. The one with the other just makes it more dangerous, and it may well irritate me that it is as it is, "said Jakob Fuglsang, who adds:

    "When you talk to older riders, who drove back then, you did not have helmets, they tell that you got an earful of format, just one touched one another, and today pushes you to each other in an away because you've got a helmet on, but so much helps the words either. Back then there was more respect for each other. I know it's hard, because we all want to be in the front row, but there is not room for all of us. It should be possible that we solve this. It can not go on, that every year should be 10 man who gets run over by motorcycles. "

    http://www.bt.dk/cykling/fuglsang-efter-kollegaens-tragiske-doed-det-er-naermest-farligere-at-koere-paa-cyk
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    hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #45 on: March 29, 2016, 00:25 »
    BTW - @MV - you asked what I expected Cookson to say?

    Something more like what the Wanty boss said:
    Quote
    Are there too many motorcycles in the bunch? Press officer José Been: “We don’t want to discuss that, and this is not the right place to discuss that. This was a terrible accident, but it was an accident — we do not blame him, and it is not our place to blame him [motorcycle driver].”
    http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/wanty-boss-recounts-demoities-tragic-death_400183#6t8HwBjv7miDxC6l.99

    Something that recognizes the concerns that have been voiced, the tragedy that has been realized, and the need for action (or at least the possibility of).
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  • AG

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #46 on: March 29, 2016, 01:54 »
    I havent read anything that has blamed this particular motorcycle driver.  The discussion is around the overall safety aspect and the pure number of moto's within the peloton/caravan.   (ie This accident might have been avoided if there wasnt a motorcycle THERE when the riders crashed )

    That number has dramatically increased over the last few years.



    Yes - it sounds fairly plausible to me that due to the changing traffic conditions, the number of security personell required is more - which means more moto's, as well as limited places to pass.  More cameras (not just tv cameras but still photographers also ride motorbikes and that number is higher these days.


    I agree - more training is required (which might not have helped this situation but may well have in many of the others

    Perhaps in terms of security what we need is more men, not less.   More men so that they have time to go around the peloton to get to the next place rather than through it?

    I do think there should be less service vehicles.  Yes it will mean that some cyclists will lose the race from a mechanical, but it is vastly safer for the riders not to have 20 race cars trying to pass them all the time.    Teams have 9 riders for WT races, they will need a teammate to give them a bike.


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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #47 on: March 29, 2016, 08:19 »
     De Panne to cut the number of motobikes for today's race:-

    http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/1.2614107

     Another though struck me, this morning. There are a number of Vittel water carrying bikes on duty, during the Tour.
    Very useful during very hot stages in the South. Do they stay or go in any numbers cut?
    A sort of rider safety v rider safety poser, I guess.

    As to having to use bikes to service riders instead of cars on the most difficult climbs, I really don't want to go there.
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    cj2002

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #49 on: March 29, 2016, 11:04 »
    https://twitter.com/julienpretotRTR/status/714751800793042944

    The best thing about that article, aside from it being a balanced and well-written review of the current situation, is the very end where it says "editing by XXXX". :fp
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    Mellow Velo

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #50 on: March 29, 2016, 12:49 »
     Interesting point about riders not being able to hear motos because they are wearing ear pieces, mostly full of white noise from their DSs.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #51 on: March 29, 2016, 13:49 »
    The best thing about that article, aside from it being a balanced and well-written review of the current situation, is the very end where it says "editing by XXXX". :fp
    Yes, just imagine how it will be, quoting XXXX! I can just see the respect I'll get!  :o :lol

    Excellent article - it brings out information that has not been heard. Like:
    Quote
    According to ASO competitions director Thierry Gouvenou, while ASO have the means to improve safety, other organisers may not.

    "The problem is the sport is still largely amateur," he told Reuters.

    "Some races are still organised by amateurs and volunteers, that's the weak point. Also, some organisers have VIP motorbikes on their races. It should not be possible," he added. . . .

    Well, if ASO can guide the way, and I think they should do, given their big boy status, then the little races can know what to do if they want safety.
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #52 on: March 29, 2016, 14:21 »
    Well, if ASO can guide the way, and I think they should do, given their big boy status, then the little races can know what to do if they want safety.

    I was thinking about this. The background murmuring of cycling recently has been about the drawing up of battle lines between the UCI/ASO/RCS/Velon/InFront etc. etc.

    If Cookson had come out with strong leadership - "we will take immediate action to address the ever-increasing number of incidents involving riders and service vehicles", "it should not have taken a death to bring about action", "one death is one too many", usw. usw. - then UCI would have been on the front foot. They could have imposed new rules in the interests of rider safety, and race organisers would have to follow or lose the right to run. If ASO complained, tough. UCI could throw back "so your own profit margin is more important than a dead cyclist, is it?" Game, set and match, Mr. Cookson.

    But he didn't. We got another bare minimum UCI press release with zero content, and we are all sitting here hoping for action but knowing that nothing will happen.

    Now, if ASO set more stringent rules, the UCI won't go against them. But the power dynamic shifts almost irreversibly to the French. They have the card of "UCI were not taking action quickly or strongly enough. The safety of the riders in our races is the most important thing" enz. enz.

    I suspect the latter is what we will see play out, and once again the UCI will be reduced to spectators in the sport that they are supposed to be governing. Expect ASO's forthcoming guidelines to be quietly added to the UCI rulebook ahead of, say, the 2019 season.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #53 on: March 29, 2016, 14:30 »
    Yes, just imagine how it will be, quoting XXXX! I can just see the respect I'll get!  :o :lol

    Excellent article - it brings out information that has not been heard. Like:
    Well, if ASO can guide the way, and I think they should do, given their big boy status, then the little races can know what to do if they want safety.

    The trouble is that at least half the recent incidents have occurred in ASO races.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #54 on: March 29, 2016, 15:44 »
    . . .

    If Cookson had come out with strong leadership - "we will take immediate action to address the ever-increasing number of incidents involving riders and service vehicles", "it should not have taken a death to bring about action", "one death is one too many", usw. usw. - then UCI would have been on the front foot. They could have imposed new rules in the interests of rider safety, and race organisers would have to follow or lose the right to run. If ASO complained, tough. UCI could throw back "so your own profit margin is more important than a dead cyclist, is it?" Game, set and match, Mr. Cookson.

    But he didn't. We got another bare minimum UCI press release with zero content, and we are all sitting here hoping for action but knowing that nothing will happen.


     . . .

    Precisely, and so well said it is worth quoting right here.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #55 on: March 29, 2016, 15:45 »
    BTW - are we counting near-misses in our moto v rider incidents?

    https://twitter.com/cyclingreporter/status/650680894886273024/photo/1

    Nibali. Il Lombardia. 2015
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #56 on: March 29, 2016, 15:55 »
    Scott O'Raw's response to the UCI press release takes it one step farther than my own. But otherwise is the same:

    Quote
    Antoine Demoitié deserves more than this. The men and women of the professional peloton deserve more than this. The fans who justify this sport’s existence deserve more than this. Because if that’s all Antoine gets, Brian Cookson simply does not deserve his position as President of the UCI. That he appears to have ignored all the signs that a tragedy was imminent, and a young man now lies dead, may mean his position is already untenable.

    https://velocast.cc/it-should-never-have-come-to-this

    I've been supporting Cookson, as he at least promised a break from the corrupt past. But if he isn't up to the job, then maybe another regime change is due.
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #57 on: March 29, 2016, 17:56 »
    Interesting point about riders not being able to hear motos because they are wearing ear pieces, mostly full of white noise from their DSs.

    i've actually thought about how they could use the radios to deal with some of the cases where a car or moto tries to move passed a group. We're told one of the reasons for race radios is safety as well as giving tactical instructions to a rider. If a Moto needs to go passed a group announce it to the riders through there radios so they will be aware that something will try to pass. Something along the lines of

    "Moto XYZ needs to pass the peloton, He will do this on the right hand side of the road. Could all riders please stay a distance of one metre from the right hand side til Moto XYZ has cleared you"

    Possibly not feasible when things happen at short notice or at all but if a Commisaire or TV Moto has got out of position it would give the warning that they will be coming through.
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  • Mellow Velo

    • Road Captain
    • Country: wales
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    • Awards: 2015 CQ Vuelta Game winnerVelogames Classics Champion 20142013 CQ Ranking Giro Game
    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #58 on: March 29, 2016, 19:35 »
     It happened again today, during De Panne.
    Race officials car tried very gingerly to pass by the breakaway on a standard, town road.
    For a few seconds, it was slowly moving past, parallel to the group, yet nobody seemed to notice until they all began to drift into it's path.
    Heads were turned and it got all huffy with angry waves etc.

    Point is, how could they miss a moving car positioned no more than a metre from them?

    The answer seems obvious to me.
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  • Kev1n

    • Coach Potato
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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #59 on: March 29, 2016, 19:59 »
    There are probably more cases than those that are headlined, particularly where the rider is less well known and they escape serious injury. This one at ToB could have been far worse.

    http://www.stickybottle.com/blogs/bennett-diary-a-motorbike-ran-over-scotts-head-on-a-horrible-day-for-me/
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