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cj2002

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Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2016, 20:06 »
I'm not going to post Cookson's piece. Mainly because I think it would defy the laws of physics to provide a link to something that, as far as I could tell, had precisely no substance.
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    LukasCPH

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #61 on: March 29, 2016, 22:06 »
    i've actually thought about how they could use the radios to deal with some of the cases where a car or moto tries to move passed a group. We're told one of the reasons for race radios is safety as well as giving tactical instructions to a rider. If a Moto needs to go passed a group announce it to the riders through there radios so they will be aware that something will try to pass. Something along the lines of

    "Moto XYZ needs to pass the peloton, He will do this on the right hand side of the road. Could all riders please stay a distance of one metre from the right hand side til Moto XYZ has cleared you"

    Possibly not feasible when things happen at short notice or at all but if a Commisaire or TV Moto has got out of position it would give the warning that they will be coming through.
    Problem with this is that riders have radio connection only to their team car. They can't receive anything directly from the commissaire. So the commissaires would have to communicate to the team cars, the team cars to their riders. Also, not every rider will necessarily have a radio, some prefer to ride without it. Or they might have radio problems.

    In conclusion, it's a good solution, but only in theory. Hardly practicable.


    Regarding the passing speed: I imagine that it's difficult to find a compromise between the desire to clear the space next to the cyclists as quickly as possible so as to not be an obstacle in the 'danger zone' where you could cause an accident (therefore passing at a higher speed) and the desire to have accidents be less serious (therefore passing at a lower speed). If you go only 5 km/h faster, passing a peloton will take very long.
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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #62 on: March 29, 2016, 22:27 »
    Pinched this from BR.




    62 MTBs, of which 75% are race vehicles and have no connection to any form of media.
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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #63 on: March 29, 2016, 22:33 »
    ah, yeah, that got me a retweet from Laura Meseguer and a bunch of new Spanish speaking followers, but I seem to have forgotten to post it on here

    edit: not exactly the same picture though, just a screenshot of the same page from today's Het Nieuwsblad
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    Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #64 on: March 29, 2016, 22:51 »
    Problem with this is that riders have radio connection only to their team car. They can't receive anything directly from the commissaire. So the commissaires would have to communicate to the team cars, the team cars to their riders. Also, not every rider will necessarily have a radio, some prefer to ride without it. Or they might have radio problems.

    In conclusion, it's a good solution, but only in theory. Hardly practicable.


    Regarding the passing speed: I imagine that it's difficult to find a compromise between the desire to clear the space next to the cyclists as quickly as possible so as to not be an obstacle in the 'danger zone' where you could cause an accident (therefore passing at a higher speed) and the desire to have accidents be less serious (therefore passing at a lower speed). If you go only 5 km/h faster, passing a peloton will take very long.

    i accept its limitations but if we accept that cars and motos need to pass groups at times in the race some sort of protocal needs to be put in place for how and when they pass. If it can't be done mid race via radio comunication then some rules would need to be laid down beforehand.

    What I want to get to is that there needs to be a way for the riders and drivers of motor vehicles to work together somehow to create the neccesary spaces for each other.

    Regarding the passing speeds i did a few quick sums earlier and for a bunch 50 metres long if the speed differential is 10km/h it would take 18 seconds to pass so for a fully strung out peloton of 200 riders it would take getting on for 90 seconds
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #65 on: March 29, 2016, 23:01 »
    I'm not going to post Cookson's piece. Mainly because I think it would defy the laws of physics to provide a link to something that, as far as I could tell, had precisely no substance.

    I assume you are referring to today's open letter from Cookson. I have to agree about "substance". Well, at least he met my minimum desirable standard points, but I do not think he could have done it in a more undiplomatic way. This betrays a lack of political sensibility.[1]

    Coverage here, probably elsewhere also:  http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/cookson-expects-changes-motorcycle-rules_400308

    The thing that really matters is that the races continue to take action. At least the De Paane organizers are giving it a shot.
     1.  BTW, given my level of experience watching election politics, and particularly the current election, this is a topic on which I believe I have become sensitive to. And have expertise in. :(
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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #66 on: March 30, 2016, 06:52 »
    https://twitter.com/BrianCooksonUCI/status/714885326548942849

    here is the Cookson spin

    notice the tense ie in the future
     
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    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #68 on: March 30, 2016, 08:19 »
    A few things:

    The amount of race vehicles: I see that there is room to cut back on this, in my opinion there are functions that can be removed and some that has to stay. As far as functions that have to stay I'd say anything related to safety, rider assistance, tv and marshaling must stay although the amount of bikes could of cause change. Meanwhile anything regarding still pictures and VIP's must go. As far as the stills go simply take pictures at the start and finish and then add in roadside photographers at one or two key places, should be fine in my opinion, then have these guys work for the race, and make the photos publicly available to any news paper that wish to use them. I have never seen one of L'arri's photo shoots and thought well none of these could be used in an article regarding the race, rather often there is too many good pictures to pick from. The VIP cars annoy me, because for the VIP's to actually see any of the race they have to move around, and moving around is dangerous. The Hoogerland/Flecha crash involved a car that really did not service the Tour in any way shape or form.

    ASO: The ASO needs to quiet down about them vs. other organizers I remember many issues at ASO races.

    Competence of drivers: Is it me or does it seem like most the time when there are these issues it is race cars and not team cars. To me it certainly seem like the DS'es are better at moving through the pack. Better training might be a factor, as may better rules Jesper Worre mentioned how in PDR they outline zones where riders can't be overtaken for safety reasons, this redzone principle seems reasonable[1].
     1. http://www.bt.dk/cykling/holm-angriber-cykelboss-efter-doedsulykke-mere-gavn-som-vinduespudser (Danish)
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #69 on: March 30, 2016, 08:59 »
    Turns out I was right about Cookson and while it may not find a consensus on here, I agree with much of what he says.
     
    From the outset, I have felt this issue to be less clear cut and more complex than early debate would have us believe.
    It's not a simple numbers game.
    The UCI need to get any change right, or else they could end up creating a further avenue for incident.
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  • Francois the Postman

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #70 on: March 30, 2016, 10:02 »
    Deaths tend to trigger calls for action and understandably so. But 'obvious' solutions are rarely that. Motos aren't just a danger to riders, the vast majority are simultaneously keeping them safe. Nearly all of them have functions that are lifelines in our sport. Remove a given amount of motors and we are indeed removing the chances of direct collision, but at what cost?

    We are on the open roads with an increasing amount of road hazards. We do not have thousands of well-trained marshalls who can stand with their whistle and triangle at each danger point. The constant leapfrogging of a moving circus is an unsung dance that is a marvel in its own right. And the only reason we have our sport in the first place.

    I don't want to trivialize the death of a rider, but it testifies to the skill of these moto roders how few incidents we actually have, given the amount of manoeuvres that take place each race, let alone over a season.

    For all I know, getting better wall to wall race coverage might well accentuate a situation that has always been going on. I do suspect it is a situation that has detoriated though. There have been some real dodgy moments recently, even in the elite races, which should and could have been avoided. Still not sure if the GW death falls into that category. 

    It is always good to have a second and third look at how we can improve the situation on the road, but only if we are willing to look at all aspects.

    That includes not just the additions the riders (motos, vehicles, choppers) and the rules and skill requirements for those.

    It also the riders themselves. The amount of riders on the road, their arelertness levels, the impact of radios on immediate surrounding awareness, the impact of legal drug-taking etc.

    And teams, organisers and rules impact: the pressure on riders to exceed their skill level, the pressure on teams to score points, the impact of (thin) globalisation and (depth) race losses, a ever growing pool of potential race recorders, etc.   

    And reporting: our thirst for HD images from every bit of action might well be a contributory factor.

    And the aftermath of this type of globalisation: the wider we spread our sport (at the cost of depth), and the shorter the lifespan of teams and races, the more likely it is that a lesser skilled entourage will be starting to take its toll.

    I'd almost reverse the quest for a safe solution.

    How many motos and vehicles are needed to fascilitate a race. Reporting, safety, emergency. Then the next question is: how many riders can be safely added to this mix?

    I keep thinking that the answer to many issues that have crept into our sport is to be found in less riders, smaller teams and less radios. Far too many conversations going on, imo. Far too many hands able to keep bunched control.

    Like MV, I accept that the question is clear but the answer less so. I am convinced that the best answer is not as obvious as some people feel, although I can understand the call to reduce the escort size.


    On a sidenote, I do get greatly annoyed to see riders respond to 'hairy' situations by throwing bottles and fists at cars and motos. I have yet to see them literally punch each other and throw bottles for taking tranquelizers and drugs. It is curiously targeted anger. If you don't like others endangering you, at least be consistent if you reach for throwing bottles, and also be as considerate to those around you yourself and remain as alert as you could be, painful as it is and don't takle anything that numbs the senses.

    Riders being outraged and talking about safety and pointing at everyone but themselves, for as long as I can remember, smacks of hyprocricy. And I simply have less sympathy for hypocrites even if they are justified in raising their "also" issues.
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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #71 on: March 31, 2016, 10:57 »
    Turns out I was right about Cookson and while it may not find a consensus on here, I agree with much of what he says.
     
    From the outset, I have felt this issue to be less clear cut and more complex than early debate would have us believe.
    It's not a simple numbers game.
    The UCI need to get any change right, or else they could end up creating a further avenue for incident.

    but once again is well put and all, but reactive not proactive

    Brain seems a lovely fellow - just useless as UCI president and before I get asked who could/would do better no real idea Tracey is not the answer  There is 2 names I can think of maybe but both are out of cycling now and busy .... so no one springs to mind
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  • just some guy

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    LukasCPH

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #74 on: March 31, 2016, 15:15 »
    but once again is well put and all, but reactive not proactive
    Very politician-like. Or not even that, more administrator-like.
    Administering the sport is very necessary - but the UCI and its president aren't doing anything but.

    Anything and everything the UCI does is a reaction to outside influences, it feels.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #75 on: April 01, 2016, 01:01 »
    Too much said - I'm not going to quote. I personally think the blowback against the complaints is misguided, but at least there is a conversation.

    I still like Neal Rogers point - this was a predictable tragedy. We have ALL discussed the need for a smaller peloton, and the topic of race radios and safety has been much discussed. It is my viewpoint that the leaders of organized cycling, i.e. Cookson, ASO, and RCS, should be the ones leading the charge to make the necessary changes. And they should be the ones reassuring and convincing us in the public that they are actively doing something to change the factors that have created the current situation.

    But what I see is a giant lack of convincing attitudes and words - a vacuum. You know what you get in a vacuum - everything around it tries to fill it, right? Thus, the voices trying to fill the vacuum are loud atm. 

    Many of the voices, including our own, are only saying what the person behind them rationally deduces to be "the cause". In the absence of facts, we have only conjecture. Obviously, one of the first actions should be to compile some facts about known incidents and near-misses.

    A number of voices who are closely involved with the peloton have expressed opinions that, to me, seem to be presenting something of a consensus in the picture of current circumstances.

    Anyway, atm, I'm talked out. C y'all later.
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  • DJW

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #76 on: April 01, 2016, 05:10 »
    Whilst I understand that swift action is not always the best response, a response has been too long in the making and now it is urgent.

    For me, the riders' union needs to take a lead and say how they can be made safer. At the end of the day, if it is VIPs on motos, untrained riders or risk taking cameramen then it is the riders that can tell us how to fix it, and the others will have to fall in line.

    Whilst from what I have read Demoitie's death was more of a freak accident than other incidents, it does not diminish the need for something to be done in this respect.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #77 on: April 01, 2016, 17:30 »
    . . .

    Whilst from what I have read Demoitie's death was more of a freak accident than other incidents, it does not diminish the need for something to be done in this respect.

    Precisely so. Concur. Anybody know how to write a letter to Cookson that might actually get to him? Or should we, the VR community, jointly draft an open letter?

    Edit: Actually, it occurs to me that a technique I learned a couple of years ago could work here. One writes a letter to the big cheese - who is the target. The letter is cc'ed to a 2nd cheese at the same organization. Both are sent via Fedex (or similar). This way they actually get, at the least, to the cheese's secretary, and usually to the cheese himself.

    I got blown off years ago, trying to send a letter directly. There is something, tho, about sending the letter to two, and sending via a messenger service, rather than via post, that gets these through the many gates in front of the cheeses. A non-profit manager suggested this to me a few years back, and it worked. Blew me away.
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  • « Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 17:47 by hiero »

    DJW

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #78 on: April 01, 2016, 17:45 »
    Or should we, the VR community, jointly draft an open letter?

    I think an open letter could be a good idea. Agreeing on what goes in it is a whole different problem though :lol
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #79 on: April 01, 2016, 18:08 »
    I think an open letter could be a good idea. Agreeing on what goes in it is a whole different problem though :lol

    Ok. Let's start a list of suggestions. Just compiling what others have said should be a good start.

    Given this: the numbers in the peloton today, present towards the end of the race is recognized to be larger than ever. It is also widely recognized that the peloton is exerting a lot more effort over the complete course of a race, compared to historical efforts. The result is a larger peloton with greater levels of fatigue. That level of effort is not likely to change. Thus, any changes need to recognize this, and work on areas where change can be achieved.

    1. Research cause. We have a lot of conjecture about cause, but few facts.
         a.) Determine how many motos there are today, compared to previous years/decades
         b.) Investigate role of team race radios to determine if they are contributory to known incidents and close calls.
         c.) Enumerate and document, as possible, past incidents and close calls.[1]
    2. Reduce the size of the peloton. Although this is obvious to everybody, each faction is dithering about how to do it. It needs to get done.
    3. Establish professional standards for moto drivers. (more stringent than current)
    4. Establish a professional race moto cadre. This cadre to be responsible for onsite training and safety orientation of any non-cadre drivers used in a race.
    5. Only cadre drivers allowed to be close to riders.
    6. Centralize race communications, and race-moto communications. Integrate current GPS technology into the race caravan to enable traffic control.
    7. Standardize race-moto communication techniques - they need to have a standard terminology that is directionally clear - like air traffic.

    There's a start.  Every one of those has been suggested by someone else. I've expanded the thought behind a couple a little. I'd like to claim a little credit, but I don't think I really can.
     1. It is a rule of thumb in safety engineering, that close calls are a precursor warning sign that safety measures need to be installed. Thus, close calls should also be recorded and included in any analysis.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #80 on: April 02, 2016, 01:41 »
    Telegraph's The Cycling Podcast, and GCN have chimed in with op-ed bits and interviews of ppl involved. Including a Cav interview which offers an interesting bit of perspective.



    and

    http://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/11-tragedy-at-ghent-wevelgem-reflection-before-revolution
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  • Trudgin

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #81 on: April 02, 2016, 12:08 »

    Not a hit, but close enough to get the bidon chuck... cant find the longer clip showing how the bike stopped him getting to the car as it had with Cipo

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    Trudgin

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #82 on: April 02, 2016, 12:45 »
    The best pieces i have seen regarding this are mostly mentioned here.. Shane Stokes and the Cycling Podcast. Best piece Ive read is Suze Clemitson (@festinagirl) but i dont know where she is publishing it..so i cant post here..

    I dont see mention of using drones here...

    or that a young Dutch boy on BMC development whose name escapes me right now posted that in holland the safety motos are not allowed to ride through the peloton, when moving up to close next road, they have to leave the race and go forward on alternative roads... a lot of planning, but everything should be done to save lifes.

    and i hate money people... any desicions around this kind of thing should come from a completely indepentent, not for profit agency of some kind.. no one who makes money from something can be truly trusted to put the care of others before himself.  he's never going to be in that situation so theyll settle...*coughvelon

    go back to moto pilots being ex-pros, get rid of the mahooosssiiivvvve bikes.. use the moto scooters the giro use. much lighter and still faster than the Gaviria in a sprint.

    cutting the teams to 8? well most riders who have commented have said that the number of riders havent changed more the parcour is changing,  narrowing etc... so 8 or 10... the motos are still guests in the riders world and therefore secondary.

    i feel lots more around this but many (most) are more eloquent so this is it for now.. oh and i disagree mostly with my fellow scot here...

    edit.... oh and the Mick ToB guy on cycling podcast.. "it's the law of the land to ride on the left and take food on the left and they just need to understand" that (paraphrasing as i was driving and shouting at the stupidity that i may have missed something.) so on a closed road you are going to insist that they block out everything that they know even the brit riders and reverse everything in their head on top of riding on roadways not caring of cars never mind bikes, is a bit rich.. and to complain about the amount of riders... it's not a WT race, so, isnt it invitation only?? so the too many riders were invited by you... and if you invitied me asking me to forget everything i know.. id say thanks but no thanks..

    That last bit is all rant..
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  • hiero

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #83 on: April 03, 2016, 16:16 »
    The best pieces i have seen regarding this are mostly mentioned here.. Shane Stokes and the Cycling Podcast. Best piece Ive read is Suze Clemitson (@festinagirl) but i dont know where she is publishing it..so i cant post here..

    I dont see mention of using drones here...

     . . .

    If you get a link for festinagirl, please post it. We mentioned drones upthread a ways.

    Here are a couple of thoughts about drones. First, they are happening for filming. That started about 3-4 years ago, and is growing. They come with their own safety considerations, but ultimately should provide a safer and less disruptive alternative, at least for some filming.

    Second, tho - is that not that many of the motos are for fotogs / vid cameras, and their is a question if the camera motos have been involved in any incidents. Apparently race marshall and vip and traffic control motos far outnumber the camera motos. This is an important consideration. If you manage to replace two film motos, and you've left 75 support motos - you aren't really being very effective, eh? 

    I've a little expertise on drones - as I was trying to get a business going a few years back. You could use them for neutral support, but you couldn't have team support - too many air vehicles would be a worse nightmare than what we have, probably by far. And having something big enough for neutral support, you'd have an air vehicle that was essentially a smallish helo - that wouldn't be sensible either, I think, except possibly on some unusual mountain roads. So, barring overcoming some largish objections, the only reasonable use is to replace photo motos.
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  • AG

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #84 on: April 11, 2016, 02:09 »
    another crash with a moto yesterday at Pris Roubaix

    viviani

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/viviani-involved-in-collision-with-motorbike-in-paris-roubaix/

    video in story
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  • Ram

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #85 on: April 14, 2016, 17:49 »
    A few weeks have passed and emotions must have settled down. The UCI's response in being considered and not reactionary is good to see. Emotional decisions lead to little good.

    Regarding motorbikes and their numbers, I don't think it's as straightforward a solution as may have been purported. The security motorbikes are required to reduce encroachment on slow roads, and seeing the urine throwing incidents and mega syringe carrying freaks in recent times, they are still a necessity.

    TV cameras are just essential. We're among the first to complain when the coverage is poor (Catalunya, Basque country). So little chance to reduce there.

    Then there are the neutral service bikes if in case the Mavic cars can't make. Again, little room for manoeuvre with potential time losses into the minutes (Evans in the vuelta).

    I can't say how many are too many or how many are too few, but it's certainly can't be as simple as blame the motorbike for everything.

    These are vehicles that have a cruising speed of higher than the cyclists they're following and I'd compare their (drivers/motorbike riders) predicament to a person caught in a traffic jam (again, only my opinion). Over significant time, that is likely to be draining... after all, a second can be the difference in such cases.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #86 on: April 15, 2016, 09:10 »
    In case you missed this one from the Ronde:

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #87 on: May 01, 2016, 17:05 »
    Posted this in the Red Hook Crit thread as well, but it's a doozy.  :S

    Stalled motorcycle causes huge crash in Red Hook Criterium (video)
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #88 on: May 06, 2016, 18:59 »
     Very nasty looking crash involving the camera bike in the 4 Days of Dunkerque, today.
    Basically, on a roundabout, the camera bike went left, the riders should have gone straight over, but the lead riders, who were attacking at the time, followed the moto.
    The motorbike ended up on the grass verge, but a couple of riders with their heads down, ploughed straight into it. Ag2 r went sailing through the air and looked hurt.

    Clearly rider error, but it didn't stop Kirby from trying to blame the pilot and it's another moto crash to add to the tally.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Crashes involving race vehicles
    « Reply #89 on: May 06, 2016, 22:23 »
    Very nasty looking crash involving the camera bike in the 4 Days of Dunkerque, today.
    Basically, on a roundabout, the camera bike went left right, the riders should have gone straight over, but the lead riders, who were attacking at the time, followed the moto.
    The motorbike ended up on the grass verge, but a couple of riders with their heads down, ploughed straight into it. Ag2 r went sailing through the air and looked hurt.

    Clearly rider error, but it didn't stop Kirby from trying to blame the pilot and it's another moto crash to add to the tally.
    Fixed it for you.
    Right and left aren't that hard to tell apart ... :P

    It was a weird situation, that's for sure.
    And the break + Quaade, who were maybe 10-20 seconds ahead, went the right way. It was only the guys trying to get away from the peloton who went the wrong way.
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