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benotti69

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Road to Valor Gino Bartali
« on: June 01, 2012, 19:02 »
Road to Valor

A book and website about a man who in my opinion was the greatest cyclist ever.

http://roadtovalorbook.com/



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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    Zam

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    Re: Road to Valor Gino Bartali
    « Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 17:54 »
    Great post.  :win
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  • Echoes

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    Re: Road to Valor Gino Bartali
    « Reply #2 on: May 05, 2020, 18:54 »
    Gino Bartali's Memory Honoured by the Italian Church




    https://www.rtbf.be/sport/cyclisme/detail_la-memoire-de-gino-bartali-juste-parmi-les-nations-honoree-par-l-eglise-italienne?id=10494450


    Today 5 May 2020 is twenty years since Gino Bartali left our planet.

    There's (or was[1]) a celebration going on in the diocese of Assisi-Nocera Umbra-Gualdo Tadino.

    The celebration is organised by the champion's grandchildren Gioia and Stella Bartali and can be followed on the diocese's Facebook page, because of the Covid-19 pandemic.

    I don't know what time it was, perhaps it's already done at this hour!
     1. I don't know what time it was but it's probably over at this late hour
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  • "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

    Mellow Velo

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    Re: Road to Valor Gino Bartali
    « Reply #3 on: May 06, 2020, 07:36 »
     Even the BBC managed to chip in with their own 20 years memorial piece.
    "Italy's cycling key worker.":

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/52538289

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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Francois the Postman

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    Re: Road to Valor Gino Bartali
    « Reply #4 on: May 07, 2020, 20:29 »
    Bartali, to me, is one of the rare people who define the term Sporting Hero in the truest sense.

    Too often it gets used when we are really only talking about self-absorbed sports celebrities. Gifted people who are simply good at their job and whose generosity, if any, is frequently a self-serving image-building exercise too.

    It makes me want to pull out Bartali's biography and slap them over the head until they realize that maxing out a talent you are born with stands in no relationship to being able to max out the human being you were born as.

    Barteli did. He climbed both those hills and easily made it over the top in either journey. And arguably kept quiet about his greatest sports achievements to boot. Risking his life on a bike to help others he didn't even know.

    BTW, I use the same biography to slap those snooty atheists who find it too easy to look down on everything religious.

    Oh, and also Pius XII, who arguably had one of the greatest tools in history at hand during WWII, the goddamn Roman Catholic Church, who knew, was asked, and kept silent. A so-called shepherd whose moral metal was outpeddled by a simple bike-rider in his flock who read the book and actually understood it. What it actually said about the worthiness of helping Jews in hiding and turning over Nazi tables in Nazi temples.

    Bartelli, a great racer and even greater human being. As far as people come, they don't grow taller.

    Plus, like me, he looks at his best in well-aged black and white.
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  • Echoes

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    Re: Road to Valor Gino Bartali
    « Reply #5 on: May 07, 2020, 22:09 »
    The role played by Pius XII during WWII is still under discussion, though. He kept silent to avoid severe Nazi retaliation (as happened in the Netherlands after one of the few occasions he openly spoke out against the regime) but according to more and more historians, he did act underground. Rabbi David G. Dalin in "The Myth of Hitler's Pope" argued that "Pius himself was instrumental in saving lives of close to five thousand Roman Jews who, at the Pope's instructions, were sheltered within the Vatican and in the numerous monasteries and convents in Rome." (p.13)

    Dalin also advocates for his being honoured a "Righteous among the Nations".


    I don't know if there is any connection between Bartali and the Pope. He was closely connected with Mgr Elia Angelo Dalla Costa, archbishop of Florence, also a "Righteous among the Nations" who handed him the passports, I think. However it seems that the only time he was arrested by the Fascist regime was when he sought to get shelter in the Vatican but I'm not too sure about that.
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  • « Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 22:42 by Echoes »

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    Re: Road to Valor Gino Bartali
    « Reply #6 on: May 07, 2020, 23:15 »
    The Vatican Secret Archives are open now by the way (well, not at the moment obviously, but not locked up anymore), so over the coming years it should be possible to draw a clearer picture about Pius Xii
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  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    Francois the Postman

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    Re: Road to Valor Gino Bartali
    « Reply #7 on: May 08, 2020, 17:53 »
    Well, we have 11 official volumes already. And they don't mention things like this:

    Quote
    Per Religion News Service’s Tom Heneghan, historian Hubert Wolf of the University of Münster and a team of German academics travelled to Rome for the archives’ historic unveiling in early March. Wolf’s team was only able to conduct research for a week before COVID-19 shuttered the archives. In that short timespan, the scholars discovered a host of documents that, in Heneghan’s words, “do not look good for Pius or the Catholic Church.”

    On September 18, 1942, Pius’ assistant, the future Pope Paul VI, received an eyewitness report of “incredible butchery” of Jews in Warsaw. One month prior, Ukrainian Archbishop Andrzej Szeptycki had delivered a similar report informing the pope of atrocities carried out in the Lviv Ghetto, reports Haaretz’s Ofer Aderet.

    Soon after, the United States’ envoy to the Vatican asked if it could corroborate accounts of mass killings in Warsaw and Lviv. In response, Vatican Secretary of State Luigi Maglione reportedly stated, “I don’t believe we have information that confirms this serious news in detail.”

    While sifting through the papers, the researchers also found a memo from a Vatican staffer that warned against believing the reports, dismissing these accounts on the grounds that Jews “easily exaggerate” and “Orientals”—a reference to Archbishop Sheptytsky—“are really not an example of honesty.”

    The memo was conspicuously absent from the 11-volume collection published by the Vatican in defense of Pius’ reputation, reports Religion News Service.

    “This is a key document that has been kept hidden from us because it is clearly anti-Semitic and shows why Pius XII did not speak out against the Holocaust,” Wolf tells Catholic weekly Kirche + Leben, as quoted by Religion News Service.

    Over time I have found the RC Church to be unwavering in its commitment to look after itself first and foremost. "What would Christ do" is far far too often a distinct secondary consideration. If it is even a second.

    And you can't mention any antisemitism or the Holocaust without immediately discussing the role that Christianity played in that. Sure, Christianity doesn't need to lead to a Holocaust, I will never claim that. But you can't get to the Holocaust without the anti-Jewish feelings that Christianity put on the map, and the driving hand that Luther and the Roman Church had in this.

    I'm not claiming that Pius XII was working with the Nazi's or had sympathies for them. But an organisation like that, with open doors to power and the confession as an intelligence-gathering wet dream, was explicitly told through multiple routes about what took place, and took at best a highly inconsequential silent stance. For the Church that speaks for God. As it is keen to point out when it can increase its power or repress others whose existence it doesn't like out in the open.

    Why not confirm behind closed doors to the Allied Forces that you heard similar stories when you were asked you knew knew? Why let Hitler claim he acts for you? It will be a mixture of "you just can't trust jews" and political 'best not put the church in the middle of this' expedience. It's moral failure of the highest order.
     
    That a Church can publish 11 Volumes and not even mention key moments like that, that means that you are spinning for a purpose, not looking for historical truth. There is "no smoking gun" to make him a nazi, I guess. But I would be amazed if there are not a slew of key moments in those archives that portray him as someone who believed some of the rhetoric against Jews that his own Church had spewed for 19-odd centuries. He is a product of the Church's own upbringing.

    For me, if someone literally claims to be 2nd in command after God, speak for the man even, severe Nazi retaliation is a concern for mortals, not for those who proclaim this all serves a higher purpose to begin with and put life on earth as a mere step towards something grander. I admire priests who stick their neck out. A lor of them did and do. But I also feel that martyrship for the right ideals very much comes as part and parcel of your proclaimed your belief. As a church, it is busy day in day out to tell other people what they ought to do, and undermine people's access to equality, life and happiness when it feels so much more moral and better than those people.

    If it wants to claim moral leadership now, or that we should even listen to it, Pius XII should have made a much stronger case than he has. That we are even debating if the Pope was on the right side of history during WII, for Christ sake! So to speak.

    Ingrained child-abuse and institutional cover-up on a global scale, only to protects its own image, fits right in a well-established pattern of putting itself above sticking to its own message. Pius XII will have been no exception, there is too much of that already on the record.

    I have little issue with most Catholics of Christians, I think the vast majority are utterly decent human beings and as long as they let other people be, please believe what you feel fits you best too. But (any) church as an institution, don't start me.
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  • « Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 18:07 by Francois the Postman »

    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Road to Valor Gino Bartali
    « Reply #8 on: May 09, 2020, 04:00 »
    Well, we have 11 official volumes already. And they don't mention things like this:

    Over time...

    As a general rule: The more FtP posts around here, the better.

    IMHO.

    Cheers.
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  • Echoes

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    Re: Road to Valor Gino Bartali
    « Reply #9 on: May 09, 2020, 11:06 »
    I haven't given any attention to this 11 volumes because I am more interested in non-Catholic sources that rehabilitate Pius XII : David G. Dalin, Gordon Thomas, Leon Poliakov or Pinchas Lapide.

    The example mentioned above only shows that inside the Vatican some clergymen showed mistrust towards Jewish testimony, which you could call anti-Semitism and which could lead to an error of judgment but there's no accusation against the Pope himself and it's easy to criticise now 75 years after the war when we have all the details about what happened in Polish concentration camps. I think historians should beware of anachronism and should place himself within the context of the time in order to understand a situation. It's a matter of honesty. Treating the reliability of such information was not that easy. Just like what can we now know about what is happening in the Middle East at the moment?


    We do however have evidence that the Vatican sheltered thousands of Jews, opened convents in Italy to other thousands of Jews (to whom Gino delivered passports), that Pius XII used all his influence to have Mgr Tiso stop the deportations in Slovakia[1], that he was involved in assassination attempts against Hitler, that he gave the Allies information about the impending invasion of the Netherlands in 1940, that he's the real author of the Pius XI encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge, etc. So even if he might have made some error of judgment at some point in time about events that took place somewhere in occupied countries, it's hard to claim that Pope Pius XII was passive/indifferent towards the dramatic events that took place during his pontificate or before. Least of all that he was an accomplice ! I would be very much surprised that the Vatican Secret Archive reveals any documents that would suggest that.

    Even his supposed role in the Nazi exfiltration network - the ratlines - is now disputed. Some clerics did take part in that but they seem to have acted alone, disobeying their hierarchy.

    The Pius XII vilification had started in 1963 - so 5 years after his death - with a play "The Deputy" by Rolf Hochhutz, a very controversial figure. Some say he was sponsored by commies, but the source for that is not reliable in my opinion (I wouldn't be surprised if it was, though) and the book by John Cornwell, Hitler's Pope is so filled with lies that it cannot be credible to anyone. Before that play, Pius XII was hailed as a friend of the Jews by several Israeli greats : Golda Meir, Chaim Weizmann, Isaac Herzog, etc. http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Pius-XII,-the-Pope-who-opposed-Hitler-17173.html The great rabbi of Italy Israel Zolli even converted to Catholicism, in recognition for the Church's help in rescuing persecuted Jews and took the name Eugenio after the Pope (Eugenio Pacelli, Pius XII's birth name).

    Christianity did not put anti-Jewish feelings on the map. Pagan Rome was already anti-Semitic before the Christian Church took form (see Cicero or Ovid!). Besides, non religious philosophers or thinkers such as Voltaire, Schopenhauer or Bakunin were anti-Semites through and through. A lot more (verbally) violent than any Catholic theologians have ever been. The Catholic Church stance with regards to the Jewish question has always been : condemn the ideology/Judaism and the Talmud (which is a very violent collection of books to say the least) but protect the people. It should be said, protect the people in the hope that they someday might convert. Many Catholics have acted that way during WWII. The French film "The Two of Us" by Claude Berri (himself Jewish) is testament for this.

    Claiming that the Christian faith is in any way responsible for the Holocaust is pretty audacious on a thread about a fervent Catholic cycling champion that rescued hundreds of Jews sheltered in convents in Tuscany. It would be like saying Gino acted in contradiction with his own faith. However one of his biographers, Alberto Toscano, who is Jewish (if I'm not mistaken) and communist (very much critical of Pope Pius XII's supposed silence), claimed that Gino acted "according to his faith" (so he said at conference in Paris presenting his book "Gino Bartali : una bici contro il fascismo", Toscano speaks French very well).
     1. I'm willing to say that Mgr Tiso did not show a great image of the Church
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