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Leadbelly

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Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
« Reply #510 on: December 15, 2019, 07:57 »
He'll also be at Rwanda and Utah. :D

As far as rules go, there aren't too many.

Quote from: DirectVelo
No age limit of the riders of the reserve team is indicated in the document of the International Cycling Union. However, it stipulates several obligations:

-The same administrative structure as the parent team.
-The same financial managers.
-The same main partner and similar jerseys.

The reserve team will also be on the anti-doping programme (ADAMS and bio-passport I presume).

The only limitations are the numbers of riders who can switch over for a particular race.

WT Team

ProSeries - 2 Devo riders
.1 - 4 Devo riders

Reserve Team

.1 - 2 WT riders
.2 - 1 WT rider

So potentially the "WT team" could race a .1 event with 1 WT rider and 4 devo riders and then the next week the "Reserve Team" could do a couple of .2 races with the exact same 5 riders. Not sure why you would need to do it, but it's a possibility.

One thing I'm wondering about is salary. You're a reserve team rider on a fairly basic wage, when you then race a week long event with the WT team will you get paid the WT minimum wage pro-rata for that week? Is that what happens with stagiaires? Fus?
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #511 on: December 15, 2019, 16:41 »
    One thing I'm wondering about is salary. You're a reserve team rider on a fairly basic wage, when you then race a week long event with the WT team will you get paid the WT minimum wage pro-rata for that week? Is that what happens with stagiaires? Fus?
    For all the pages and pages spent laying out excruciating details about bank guarantees, contracts etc., the UCI rulebook is remarkably quiet on the remuneration of stagiaires. It doesn't call them stagiaires, either (in the English version), but trainees.

    Trainees you might as well call interns. And internships are characterised by being unpaid.
    Riders would still get paid a salary from their Continental or U23 team, of course - if they get a salary there (which is far from certain). And they get kit, a bike, accommodation, travel from their 'host team' ... but there's no rule that the pro team that wants to try them out has to pay them for that.

    On the men's side, that is. For the new Women's WorldTour teams, there is such a provision:
    Quote
    2.13.168
    [...]
    8. the rider will be paid on the basis of a flat-rate payment for each race day or day of participation in an event with the UCI Women’s WorldTeam. The amount of the flat-rate payment will correspond to at least 50% of the amount of the minimum salary (calculated on a daily pro-rata of the minimum salary of article 2.13.177). The payment will be made to the team which will pay the rider, after deducting sums for which they are contractually responsible towards the rider.
    So, if a WWT team takes on a stagiaire and sends them to, say, RideLondon (1.Pro next year; remember, stagiaires may not do WT/WWT events) and the Women's Tour of Scotland, that would be four race days which the WWT stagiaire trainee would get paid (at least) 50% of the minimum salary of a full-time rider at the same team.

    However, since there is no provision on whether that minimum salary should be divided by 365 or by some number of race days that is the realistic maximum a rider can do in a season, I can't say exactly how much that would be:
    The 2020 minimum wage for a directly-employed rider is 15,000 €. Since a stagiaire doesn't have a full-time contract with the WWT team yet, I'll be generous and use the minimum wage for self-employed riders (164%), which is 24,600 €.
    If we assume that this will be divided by 100 race days to get the daily pro-rata for stagiaires, that would be 246 € per race day - or 984 € for RideLondon & WToS.
    But I think that is overly generous, and the 24,600 € are to be divided by 365 days - however, with the stagiaires receiving this daily pro-rata for every day they're "at the races". You generally wouldn't return home between London and Scotland but stay in the UK, travel northwards, and train with your teammates - that makes it a 9-day trip. 24,600€ divided by 365 days is ~67.40 € per day, times 9 days is 606,58 €.
    But remember, all this was calculated using the self-employed riders' minimum wage. If we started with the directly-employed riders' minimum wage, it would be ~41.10 € per day (or, possibly, but unlikelily, something like 150 € per race day). For this 9-day trip, that would be 369.86 €.

    To sum up, a WWT stagiaire will get some remuneration. I just can't tell you exactly how much it will be - it could range anywhere between just over 40 € and almost 250 € per (race) day.


    The only thing said (or rather, not said) about wages for stagiaires at men's teams is this:
    Quote
    2.15.110bis
    [...]
    In all other respects, the relationship between these riders and the UCI WorldTeam shall be mutually agreed between the parties.
    Translated, that means that a rider will get whatever he (or, in most cases, his agent) can wiggle out of the pro team's tightly-closed coffers.
    Or, bearing in mind how full-time riders sometimes have to 'pay to ride', the team will get whatever the rider agrees to in order to get a shot at proving himself at the pro level ...
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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #512 on: December 15, 2019, 17:01 »
    Trainees you might as well call interns. And internships are characterised by being unpaid.
    Riders would still get paid a salary from their Continental or U23 team, of course - if they get a salary there (which is far from certain). And they get kit, a bike, accommodation, travel from their 'host team' ... but there's no rule that the pro team that wants to try them out has to pay them for that.

    On the men's side, that is.

    Apparently, a minimum salary "to be paid on a daily basis for each day the trainee will join the WorldTour" was introduced for the men as well this year.

    ...of 43,30 EUR per day.

    https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/6611/towards-fair-pay-for-stagiaires

    I'll leave it to you to look that up in whatever UCI rules it may be hidden in :P
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  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #513 on: December 15, 2019, 19:50 »
    Anyway I'm sure Turek, Avila et al aren't gonna get ripped off, but I think there should be some rules laid down so that there just aren't these potential grey areas further down the line for tight fisted (or even unscrupulous) teams to pay peanuts to quasi-WT riders.

    A flat fee per race day doesn't make too much sense. Some sort of ratio between the race days in a month for the feeder team and the WT team might be a bit fairer. For example Avila is down to race both Colombia and Rwanda for the WT team in February and I can't see him fitting in any CT race days in that month, so following my theory he should get at least 100% of the WT minimum wage for that month.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #514 on: December 16, 2019, 09:02 »
    https://www.tuttobiciweb.it/article/2019/12/16/1576350077/davide-cimolai-volta-comunitat-valenciana-crescere-ancora-israel-start-up-natioj

    Quote from: Cimolai
    The team gave me carte blanche for the choice of the races and this made the difference for me, because you can plan the best all year round and the results can be seen

    He's picked the Giro for 2020.

    Other races in his early season programme include:

    Valenciana, Laigueglia, Algarve, TA, MSR and maybe GW.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #515 on: December 16, 2019, 09:29 »
    Apparently, a minimum salary "to be paid on a daily basis for each day the trainee will join the WorldTour" was introduced for the men as well this year.

    ...of 43,30 EUR per day.

    https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/6611/towards-fair-pay-for-stagiaires

    I'll leave it to you to look that up in whatever UCI rules it may be hidden in :P
    Cute.

    This reminds me that I forgot to half the per-day minimum wage allowance pocket money for WWT stagiaires - if Cyclist's calculations are correct, they would get 20.55 € per day (including travel, training camps etc.), or 184.95 € for that 9-day trip including RideLondon and WToS.

    :S
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #516 on: December 16, 2019, 17:24 »
    https://twitter.com/velonews/status/1206601536446418944

    Quote
    “Even now as those words come out of my mouth, I can’t believe it,” Piccoli said about his Giro start. “ This has always been my dream as a cycling fan at heart; to know this year its coming is a surreal feeling.”

    He's not green in terms of age, but an early programme of Herald Sun, TDU, Rwanda, Catalunya and Pais Vasco all before the Giro means he's in at the deep end. I make that at least 53 potential race days (40 WT) by the end of May!
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #517 on: December 19, 2019, 07:51 »
    The big interview.

    https://www.roadcycling.cz/clanek/dan-turek-na-sezonu-se-opravdu-tesim

    Dan starts the season with Colombia and Hainan.

    Quote
    In March I go Normandy, which is in its category and at this time of year a very prestigious stage. We will certainly meet the boys from Elkov-Kasper there. Of the three stage races at the beginning of the season, I consider this one to be the most important for myself and I would like to show myself here.

    He's taking an 8% pay cut this year. There were possibilities of joining a slightly worse PCT team, but he thought staying with the geeeeeks would be more beneficial.

    Quote
    To sum up: I have the opportunity to run the races just below the World Tour, I am closely connected with the World Tour team, I did not get any extra money, and after a few years I will finally be able to ride some races explicitly. I have a good chance to return to the first team. I'm really looking forward to the season!

    I might have to try and squeeze him into my CQ team....
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #518 on: December 28, 2019, 12:58 »
    https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/dowsett-sets-sights-on-2020-olympics-after-israel-start-up-nation-move/

    Dowsett, as his back-up plan for 2020, had in mind what I thought Dennis might do if he couldn't get a team. The Olympics/Worlds/Hour Record with help from his national federation.

    The big goal remains the Olympics even if he's not sure of being selected. The calendar before that will likely include CEGORR, Herald Sun, TA, MSR, Romandie and the Giro (3 TTs).

    Quote
    Then I'd shut down the road racing and hone in on the Olympics. That's what I'd like to do. If I can do that, be allowed to quietly go away and train for the Olympics, then they can do what they hell they like with me for the second half of the season
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #519 on: January 04, 2020, 14:50 »
    https://www.directvelo.com/actualite/79880/cotes-d-armor-marie-morin-veranda-rideau-l-effectif-2020

    Now that I-SUN are WT, will be riding the Tour de France this year and have a CT devo team, we'll have to see how long term the relationship is now between the two teams. Here is their complete 2020 workforce anyway:

    Ugo Bolgiani, 19 ans (VC Pays de Loudéac)
    David Boutville, 31 ans
    Thibault D'Hervez, 18 ans (VC Chateaulinois)
    Mark Downey, 23 ans (Evopro Racing)
    Cyprien Gilles, 19 ans (Laval Cyclisme 53)
    Victor Guernalec, 19 ans (Team Pays de Dinan)
    Dylan Kowalski, 25 ans (VC Rouen 76)
    Julien Jégou, 30 ans
    Aurélie Le Lay, 25 ans
    Jérémy Patoux, 29 ans (Team Peltrax-CS Dammarie-lès-Lys)
    Sam Reed, 19 ans (CC Plancoetin)
    Titouan Renvoise, 19 ans (Tro Bro Organisation)
    Maxime Rio, 20 ans (La crêpe de Brocéliande-Bodemer Auto)
    Veeti Vainio, 18 ans (Porvoon Akilles)

    I think I'd talked about some of the talented youngsters already.

    In addition to those Kowalski is off the back of a very successful year at the amateur level and he should be their leader in most races that suit him and Vainio won the junior Tour of the DMZ
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #520 on: January 04, 2020, 15:34 »
    https://twitter.com/YallaIsraelSUN/status/1213155645484077057

    Quote
    The team will run a three-race program from the get-go in January, racing simultaneously in Australia, Argentina, and Mallorca with 16 racing days over ten days of January alone.

    “In terms of racing volume, we start full gas,” explained team manager Kjell Carlstrom. “We are looking to get some results early and start the season on the right footing. We are certainly fully motivated.”

    Two or three years in a row they've said they want to hit the ground running and it hasn't happened yet.

    Quote from: Greipel
    I like the race, the atmosphere and the country. Our team for the race is strong in all kinds of terrains and we want to prove it. I want to be in the mix for the sprints. I know that I have the legs for it and I want to battle together with the team for stage wins.

    Andre sounding bullish or should that be gorilla-ish. His train will be Goldstein, Dowsett, Boivin and Zabel.

    Hermans and Piccoli will be the guys for the hillier days. Ben isn't so punchy these days, but a top-ten in the GC isn't out of the question.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #521 on: January 04, 2020, 23:12 »
    Two or three years in a row they've said they want to hit the ground running and it hasn't happened yet.
    It's very much a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach, isn't it. ;)
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #522 on: January 11, 2020, 18:15 »
    https://www.facebook.com/IsraelCyclingAcademy/videos/vb.515137875256442/509506933008604/?type=2&theater

    Line-up for San Juan:

    BARBIER Rudy
    HOFSTETTER Hugo
    MCCABE Travis
    VAHTRA Norman
    SCHELLING Patrick
    EINHORN Itamar

    The first four were practising sprints together at the training camp in Israel. Hofstetter will probably get the first bite of the cherry, but with five probable sprint finishes, there should be chances for others too.

    Quote
    For the moment every rider, and especially new riders, are given a chance to show themselves. In San Juan, we can find out on which position in the Israel SUN sprint train the riders fit best.”

    “Israel SUN hopes for a few top-5 finishes in flat stages."
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #523 on: January 22, 2020, 09:08 »
    Watched a replay of the final few km of today's stage and saw an I-SUN rider holding his arm/shoulder/elbow in the aftermath of the crash.....

    https://twitter.com/YallaIsraelSUN/status/1219898212581965825

    Yesterday's sprint went okay for Greipel. He'll get another two chances here, but the rest of the team's hopes now fall onto Piccoli's shoulders.

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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #524 on: January 27, 2020, 13:13 »
    Encouraging performance from Greipel in Australia. It augurs well for the rest of the season.

    Piccoli couldn't fill Hermans boots unfortunately. I'd have been surprised if he could tbh. Difficult to tell how his legs were, but his positioning definitely needs working on. The Herald Sun should give a better indication of how his climbing is as the climbs on stages 2 and 4 are much longer efforts.

    https://twitter.com/YallaIsraelSUN/status/1221643801686695937

    Is this the team hitting the ground running for the first time ever!? :o

    It was a bit of a scrappy win, what with the crash and no real evidence of a train in the finale (Barbier was actually in front of another I-SUN rider), but who cares.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #525 on: January 31, 2020, 19:11 »
    Barbier with another good result the other day. McCabe was the designated sprinter as Rudy was suffering from bad stomach pain. Thankfully he still gave it a go and similarly to stage 1 he arrived late in the slipstream of others, but couldn't quite beat Gaviria this time. The other similarity was the lack of a train.

    Schelling was feeling crap too during the TT.

    Quote
    I did not have a good day. I suffered and tried, but in my opinion, it was not good enough.

    I think he's being a bit harsh there on himself. Under a minute down on the normal people. Top-ten after today's stage would be great, but who knows how the legs will feel on their first major climb of the year.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #527 on: February 08, 2020, 18:43 »
    https://twitter.com/YallaIsraelSUN/status/1226164992791150592

    Great stuff today from Dan. :cool

    I'm also digging that jacket he has on.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #528 on: February 12, 2020, 19:45 »
    https://twitter.com/YallaIsraelSUN/status/1227660743702646786

    What wasn't so great, was him nearly taking out Avila. Hopefully they'll give Edwin a shot at the other two sprint stages, it being his home race and all that, but after that they need to give more opportunities to Itamar and not have him playing second fiddle to a feeder team rider.

    Anyway a good opening to the season for both Itamar and Omer while the two Guys are off to slower, less visible starts.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #529 on: February 17, 2020, 19:41 »
    https://twitter.com/YallaIsraelSUN/status/1229475115429191687

    The Facebook report ends with the question - What do YOU think of ISN first month?

    If they were still PCT I would say that they've had a fairly decent start to the season, but like it or not, they are WT now and must be judged by WT standards. Therefore I would say the team has had a variable start to the year, but leaning more towards the negative end of the spectrum.

    Martin, Barbier (San Juan), Greipel (TDU), Goldstein and Einhorn are the obvious highlights. Cousin Dan especially standing out. It's a rare occurrence for the Geeeeeks to be that visible in big races against the top names, and in his first race of the season as well. Looking forward to see how he gets on in the Algarve (I might not tune in for the TT though).

    Outside of those guys, it's been pretty disappointing. The second rank of riders have had chances (and will have more chances with Greipel and Hermans out for months) and nobody has shown good early form. Brandle did pretty well the other day, but Provence was a virtual write-off. Raim struggled to beat any of the other WT sprinters at the Herald Sun. Sprint train fail at Almeria at the weekend etc etc.

    I don't like that stat "29 (!) top 10 in 40 starts". Tbh nobody cares about top-tens. A more telling stat would be the UCI rankings. Handily enough this year they aren't doing a rolling count, but are scoring it from zero.

    https://www.uci.org/road/rankings

    No mind bending calculations needed. You can see I-SUN down in 27th place. Despite all their racing, they're the bottom WT team. Behind 3 (!) CT teams.

    Having said all that of course, it is only the 17th Feb. At the end of the year, no one is going to remember how the team got on in San Juan or Provence. The upcoming two months of classics will be the real thing. Politt better not fall off his bike any time soon - there's a lot of weight on his broad shoulders.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #530 on: February 19, 2020, 11:00 »
    I don't like that stat "29 (!) top 10 in 40 starts". Tbh nobody cares about top-tens.
    Yes!
    As a WorldTour team, it must be your goal to place in the top-10 in every race. Exceptions can be made for a new team in the biggest WT races, but on the lower rungs, not getting that top-10 with a WT squad is, frankly put, failure.

    It has taken the team only six years to move from 'new upstart Conti team with riders from non-traditional nations' to 'WorldTour team' ... but some people's expectations are still on the level of 'ooh, we're racing with the Quicksteps and Lottos now, how exciting everything is, and we even have someone left for the sprint, marvellous'. :shh
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #531 on: February 20, 2020, 09:05 »
    https://www.uci.org/road/rankings

    No mind bending calculations needed. You can see I-SUN down in 27th place. Despite all their racing, they're the bottom WT team. Behind 3 (!) CT teams.

    Not that the points will matter this year, but the cumulative points over three years will at the end of 2022. The UCI have said that after that time the number of UCI teams will be reduced to 18 again.

    So unless a team disappears for some reason, you don't want to be the 19th ranked WT team, and if promotion/relegation is introduced you might have to be in the top-18 of combined WT and PCT teams to ensure your position from 2023 onward.

    Finishing bottom this year is a strong possibility, but they need to ensure they are within touching distance of that combined top-18 and give themselves a chance of, with the help of some signings, moving into that top group in the following two years.

    ------------------------------

    The devo team don't officially get under way until the middle of March, but they kinda will be racing in Rwanda in the next few days as the WT team.

    Out there at the moment are Gebremedhin, Ovett, Lahav and Schelling. Avila is meant to be riding as well and I don't know if there is a 6th member or not. So yeah, as I talked about earlier in the thread, they could have raced this event as either the WT or Devo team.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #532 on: February 20, 2020, 12:28 »
    Not that the points will matter this year, but the cumulative points over three years will at the end of 2022. The UCI have said that after that time the number of UCI teams will be reduced to 18 again.
    Looking at the last few years, the possibility of one (or more) of those 19 teams going under in the next 2.5 years isn't small.

    In fact, I would almost expect it to happen.
    There are a few teams (mainly the French ones) that have long-term sponsors and appear safe, but even Lefevere wasn't sure his team would continue in 2018 before getting Deceuninck in.

    But yes, being among the top-18 of all pro teams will be required to stay WT beyond 2022. And if we're honest, if you're not in that top-18, you don't deserve WT status, do you.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: The Start-Up Nation of Cycling
    « Reply #533 on: February 20, 2020, 18:09 »
    https://www.facebook.com/IsraelCyclingAcademy/posts/2209481582488721

    Quote from: Raim
    “The race was really nervous, it was the first race of the season for a lot of the teams and they want to prove themselves. There were a lot of crashes and you had to be really, really careful in the peloton,”

    "Ben Perry and Daniel Turek did their one minute pulls. Itamar and Norman screened me in the pack. They closed the left, closed the right, so the other teams couldn't pass us. In the last 500 meters Norman took it over, he was really good and I could get a good draft behind him. I launched my sprint and then he screened to take me on the right a little bit so the others couldn't pass me."

    It is only a low level 2.1 with a peloton of variable quality, but nevertheless it's still good to see that the tactics and train doing their job in a sprint finale for once. Some extended highlights of the finish would be nice.
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