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stereojet

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Has Digger dug his grave?
« on: February 11, 2016, 10:10 »
I noticed that his Twitter account's been deleted. Anybody have any information on the reason behind this? I know he isn't the most popular fellow out there(!) but I quite enjoyed his brand of misanthropy.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #1 on: February 11, 2016, 10:12 »
    He is getting sued for libel by a mysterious person or entity. Whoever it is, if you're reading this, just know you're an idiot :fp (Oh no - this might get me sued :o )
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    L'arri

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #2 on: February 11, 2016, 10:24 »
    He is getting sued for libel by a mysterious person or entity. Whoever it is, if you're reading this, just know you're an idiot :fp (Oh no - this might get me sued :o )

    Is this for real, Floortje? :P Not being a denizen of either outlet nowadays, I haven't heard word of these events.

    Tell us more, as far as it doesn't impact your legal position anyway...  :lol
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    stereojet

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #3 on: February 11, 2016, 10:24 »
    Oh dear, what a shame.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #4 on: February 11, 2016, 10:37 »
    No one knows who is suing L'arri, or which particular comments are being questioned.

    To be honest it could be any one of hundreds of people, Digger's hardly been a shrinking violet in his claims, many of which don't actually have anything to back them up, but are presented as fact rather than opinion.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #5 on: February 11, 2016, 10:44 »
    I suspect whoever has just opened this Twitter account isn't helping Digger's cause.

    https://twitter.com/Digger_libel

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  • Flo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #6 on: February 11, 2016, 10:46 »
    Is this for real, Floortje? :P Not being a denizen of either outlet nowadays, I haven't heard word of these events.

    Tell us more, as far as it doesn't impact your legal position anyway...  :lol
    No one knows who it is :o but I'm betting one of the chocolate chip cookies I have here that it's one of
    Fround duo
    Any Team Sky affiliated person
    Radcliffe

    Those are the ones Digger targeted mostly. I don't think anyone besides some cycling people would actually care enough about him to sue though.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #7 on: February 11, 2016, 10:48 »
    'Tis but the internet. Nobody cares........or shouldn't.
    If and when the sh* t  flies in the opposite direction, Digger is a very sensitive soul.
    He will not be liking much of what he is now reading on his weapon of choice.

    Sad, but inevitable.
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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #8 on: February 11, 2016, 12:00 »
    " Digger is a very sensitive soul"

    Really ?...seemed to me he could dish it out ....not very sensitive to others with unproved constant allegations stated as fact

    I am always amased when those who can dish it out cannot take it


    and as for saying it is 'only twitter' ...imagine how you'd feel if people on twitter were constantly calling you a liar and a cheat , etc and worse without any proof or means to defend yourself

    Mud sticks


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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #9 on: February 11, 2016, 12:02 »
    " Digger is a very sensitive soul"

    Really ?...seemed to me he could dish it out ....not very sensitive to others with unproved constant allegations stated as fact

    I am always amased when those who can dish it out cannot take it


    and as for saying it is 'only twitter' ...imagine how you'd feel if people on twitter were constantly calling you a liar and a cheat , etc and worse without any proof or means to defend yourself

    Mud sticks

    Agree. I have no sympathy for Digger whatsoever. The bloke is a muppet.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #10 on: February 11, 2016, 12:10 »
    Digger was one of the few people willing to take the bull by the horns. I hope he comes back.
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  • Ram

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #11 on: February 11, 2016, 12:27 »
    He didn't have the tools to do so and was at best an irritating fruit fly. Seems someone just reached for the pesticide.

    The irony of my posting here isn't lost on me, but he isn't worth all that
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #12 on: February 11, 2016, 12:32 »
    No one knows who is suing L'arri

    Nobody is suing me. :P
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #13 on: February 11, 2016, 12:35 »
    Nobody is suing me. :P

    That's what you think. Brouhahaha

     :lol
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #14 on: February 11, 2016, 12:35 »
    " Digger is a very sensitive soul"

    Really ?...seemed to me he could dish it out ....not very sensitive to others with unproved constant allegations stated as fact

    I am always amased when those who can dish it out cannot take it
    [/i]

    and as for saying it is 'only twitter' ...imagine how you'd feel if people on twitter were constantly calling you a liar and a cheat , etc and worse without any proof or means to defend yourself

    Mud sticks

    Read my post again.
    That is what I said. ;)

    Post Merge: February 11, 2016, 12:36
    Digger was one of the few people willing to take the bull by the horns. I hope he comes back.

    Bull is right. :lol ;)
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #15 on: February 11, 2016, 12:37 »
    Well, I know Digger wouldn't agree given his situation, but I think it's terribly exciting and postmodern, hence why I'm not so dismissive of the topic. And I enjoy a bit of gossip, I admit it. :shh :P

    Bit of a shame there aren't more details though.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #16 on: February 11, 2016, 13:20 »
    Well, I know Digger wouldn't agree given his situation, but I think it's terribly exciting and postmodern, hence why I'm not so dismissive of the topic. And I enjoy a bit of gossip, I admit it. :shh :P

    Bit of a shame there aren't more details though.

    Oh, I don't know.
    There's a certain symmetry to a keyboard warrior, emboldened by the cloak of internet anonymity, getting his comeuppance via an anonymous plaintiff. :lol ;)
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #17 on: February 11, 2016, 22:18 »
    How can you sue a parody or satire account as his twitter bio used to be describe as.

    When I first had a twitter account I found it interesting but after a little while I realised it was a cross between a broken record repeating the same thing over again and taking as fact every slight rumour he heard.

    What he actually could be very good at was actually pointing out genuine instances of hypocrisy within sport.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #18 on: February 12, 2016, 01:21 »
    I'm actually a bit surprised to see that this tread was allowed to grow any legs at all here. But since it has...

    Besides the lingering questions regarding the exact chain of events behind all this, I suppose there are some other points of interest worth discussing as well.

    For the moment, allow me to provide some background, or at least what has been publicly put forward that spawned this current discussion.
     
    https://twitter.com/TheRaceRadio/status/697440705740865537

    https://twitter.com/vayerism/status/697475385404080128


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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #19 on: February 12, 2016, 02:42 »
    I expect that we'll get Digger's side of story sooner rather than later, but until then I'll add a few points of my own.

    I totally understand why some will find Digger's style and content to be off-putting and offensive. Anyone that unfiltered is likely to make as many enemies as friends, if not more. But that's the odd thing about Twitter: It is mostly content by choice. Within the confines of the Twitter platform, there are only a few ways to receive the thoughts of others.

    -You can deliberately view their homepage  and timeline of all their tweets (whether you have a Twitter account or not).
    -You can actively follow that person (if you have an account).
    -Some one you follow may retweet the thoughts of others (usually either in support or condemnation of that source).
    -You may be "mentioned" in a tweet by someone else (if you have an account) and you will be notified of that through various methods of your choosing.

    Of course it's very easy to block someone from directly interacting with you. And by doing so you won't be bothered by them even mentioning you, unless others pass that gossipy info your way. This isn't a case of someone constructing billboards on the side of a highway, taking out a full page ad in the New York Times, or buying airtime from a major television network. Twitter is a far more insulated world. If you don't want to read someone's tweets, then don't. I remember a year-or-so ago when there was a laughably limp-wristed attempt to start a movement: Un-follow Digger. As if anyone had forced these timid souls to follow him in the first place. It was nothing more than a bad joke on themselves.

    I have plenty to say on the subject of Twitter, censorship, and the implications of silencing the aggressors, but it'll have to wait until I'm more rested. I will offer this though:

    I find much of the gloating over the current status of Digger's account to be shortsighted and dangerously misplaced. He's willing to say things that plenty of others are thinking, and I don't believe he takes himself nearly as seriously as his detractors would like to believe. He has very strong convictions, and is highly opinionated, no doubt. But he has also exhibited a superb sense of humor and the willingness to call out his own countrymen when faced with the same hypocrisy that he is so against in others.

    And something he is not likely to get much credit for from his detractors: he is not above correcting himself when wrong. I've seen this happen countless times over the years. I haven't the time to parse this all out at the moment, but there is plenty of selective reasoning being applied against him by his critics.

    He is fiery and antagonistic, yes. But he also has a caring and sensitive side that is frequently on display as well. And with just a little bit of cautious observation, it's not too difficult to discern why. In fact, in all the years I've followed Digger's internet adventures, the most appalling remark, by far, came straight from the Sky camp, directed at him in the most unsavory and inexcusable fashion. They're even the best when it comes to losing all dignity.


    I'm not done with this topic, but I've other things to contend with this evening. Tomorrow is another day, however.
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  • Tuart

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #20 on: February 12, 2016, 07:13 »
    I expect that we'll get Digger's side of story sooner rather than later, but until then I'll add a few points of my own.

    I totally understand why some will find Digger's style and content to be off-putting and offensive. Anyone that unfiltered is likely to make as many enemies as friends, if not more. But that's the odd thing about Twitter: It is mostly content by choice. Within the confines of the Twitter platform, there are only a few ways to receive the thoughts of others.

    -You can deliberately view their homepage  and timeline of all their tweets (whether you have a Twitter account or not).
    -You can actively follow that person (if you have an account).
    -Some one you follow may retweet the thoughts of others (usually either in support or condemnation of that source).
    -You may be "mentioned" in a tweet by someone else (if you have an account) and you will be notified of that through various methods of your choosing.

    Of course it's very easy to block someone from directly interacting with you. And by doing so you won't be bothered by them even mentioning you, unless others pass that gossipy info your way. This isn't a case of someone constructing billboards on the side of a highway, taking out a full page ad in the New York Times, or buying airtime from a major television network. Twitter is a far more insulated world. If you don't want to read someone's tweets, then don't. I remember a year-or-so ago when there was a laughably limp-wristed attempt to start a movement: Un-follow Digger. As if anyone had forced these timid souls to follow him in the first place. It was nothing more than a bad joke on themselves.

    I have plenty to say on the subject of Twitter, censorship, and the implications of silencing the aggressors, but it'll have to wait until I'm more rested. I will offer this though:

    I find much of the gloating over the current status of Digger's account to be shortsighted and dangerously misplaced. He's willing to say things that plenty of others are thinking, and I don't believe he takes himself nearly as seriously as his detractors would like to believe. He has very strong convictions, and is highly opinionated, no doubt. But he has also exhibited a superb sense of humor and the willingness to call out his own countrymen when faced with the same hypocrisy that he is so against in others.

    And something he is not likely to get much credit for from his detractors: he is not above correcting himself when wrong. I've seen this happen countless times over the years. I haven't the time to parse this all out at the moment, but there is plenty of selective reasoning being applied against him by his critics.

    He is fiery and antagonistic, yes. But he also has a caring and sensitive side that is frequently on display as well. And with just a little bit of cautious observation, it's not too difficult to discern why. In fact, in all the years I've followed Digger's internet adventures, the most appalling remark, by far, came straight from the Sky camp, directed at him in the most unsavory and inexcusable fashion. They're even the best when it comes to losing all dignity.


    I'm not done with this topic, but I've other things to contend with this evening. Tomorrow is another day, however.

    Yeah, nah. Over the years I've seen no proof of your opinion here about his sensitive side, and really even if it is there, not enough to claim to be "frequently on display".

    You can't have you cake and eat it too.

    One of the last things I saw of his was equating two different pictures of Serena Williams taken at different times (and camera angles) as proof of her doping. Now I think she is a doper too, but that is solely an opinion based on skepticism of sport in general and her place in it. Not a single shred of poof. Two pictures aren't that. So there's a clear line in this example.

    That sort of comments (and worse) is what likely landed him in hot water and doesn't help him one bit when trying to be outspoken about what's wrong in cycling.

    It doesn't matter whether you have the choice to follow those comments or not, if they are out in the public sphere they are accessible to anyone, it doesn't excuse you of your actions. This applies the bigger the following the person has etc. That's why this sort of rhetoric is troubling. We need to move on from this "But it's the internet!!!11" and people need to learn to accept some responsibility for what they do in life, including online.

    That applies to digger here, whatever the results of the libel case may be.

    The
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    L'arri

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #21 on: February 12, 2016, 09:21 »
    Some great points made both for and against and perhaps the best thing about the way this discussion is going is that it has something broader to say about social media.

    It's true that Twitter is an opt-in medium, as Drummer Boy says, so we can hardly claim to be passive observers or members of a captive audience if we find ourselves witnesses to Digger's vitriol. I can see how some would think of a libel suit as a near-hysterical reaction to his output.

    At the same time, Digger's contentions were often completely unsubstantiated and his targets indiscriminate. He called it as he saw it, caveat emptor and all that, but he was sometimes both blinkered and myopic and in the real, offline world we cannot just go around shooting our mouths off as we please without redress.

    As for the reactions, the so-called journalists of pro cycling deserve every bit as much criticism as athletes, management and sponsors and it can't have escaped many people's attention that it was often these same journalists who were most outraged or offended by what he posted.

    So much for both sides of the coin and it's hard to be sympathetic to either of them. Those who would sue this sort of Twitter user perhaps take him too seriously as an opinion maker, for his words can hardly have diminished their reputation or the living they made or still make from the sport. And him, an anonymous, often boorish armchair critic who fails to make explicit the line between truth and suspicion, as if it profoundly mattered to the world that he should be the one to do so.

    On a more general note, I think it's also important to remember that, in the online domain at least, there's no public space. Twitter can set whatever policy it chooses, just as we can choose whether or not to join the crowd. Access to the Internet and whatever is on it isn't a basic human right. Not yet, anyway.

    That's why I would tend to side against the claimant (but not in Digger's favour), as a matter of principle. To side with the claimant is to accept that Twitter is representative of the public domain and, even if others think it is, I can't. Personally, I hope I never see the day when we depend absolutely on these networks for all or even most of our transactions, and judge right and wrong according to how people behave on them, for I think that, in contrast to the apparent 'freedom' of access to social networks, we give up a lot in order to consume them.
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  • stereojet

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #22 on: February 12, 2016, 09:51 »
    Great points folks. This sort of discussion is genuinely why I adore this place and I'm glad that the debate has developed in this way.

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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #23 on: February 12, 2016, 11:51 »
    Whilst the arguments above have been constructed beautifully, does this not all boil down to the fact that all commentators are journalists whether it's a page in The Sunday Times or 140 characters? Whilst it is important to challenge the status quo, especially when history has been of a somewhat tarnished variety and still includes plenty of shady pasts, is it not a requirement that you need to have some sort of substantiation to make claims?

    In the Radcliffe case you can argue that the mere fact she has been highlighted on a suspicious list as some sort of background/smoke, but if we then take Cookson as an example it is disingenuous to suggest that he's crooked when everything he has done has been to try to improve the situation (however powerless he may be in reality with laws as they stand) simply because he is a friend of Brailsford?

    Not only is this factually incorrect to make the suggestion but his disciples blindly follow this constant barrage until it becomes fact to them, and so it gathers momentum. To me that is very wrong and actually very unfair, and really isn't in the best interests of the sport.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #24 on: February 12, 2016, 12:46 »
    Sticking your head in the sand isn't in the best interests of the sport either. If we want to clean up the sport and keep it as clean as possible it is crucial to ask critical questions. Thank god there are still people left who are willing to do so. I think it's sad these people now have to fear a potential lawsuit.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #25 on: February 12, 2016, 13:03 »
    Sticking your head in the sand isn't in the best interests of the sport either. If we want to clean up the sport and keep it as clean as possible it is crucial to ask critical questions. Thank god there are still people left who are willing to do so. I think it's sad these people now have to fear a potential lawsuit.

    Asking questions is part of the game Florry, all good, but constantly battering people with no substantiation is wrong.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #26 on: February 12, 2016, 13:09 »
    Asking questions is part of the game Florry, all good, but constantly battering people with no substantiation is wrong.
    We agree on that point. But, that makes me wonder why you and others who believe Sky were so dismissive of Ross Tucker? He saw irregularities, and asked questions about those irregularities.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #27 on: February 12, 2016, 13:13 »
    Sticking your head in the sand isn't in the best interests of the sport either. If we want to clean up the sport and keep it as clean as possible it is crucial to ask critical questions. Thank god there are still people left who are willing to do so. I think it's sad these people now have to fear a potential lawsuit.

    I think we can all agree that it is the sport's best interest that interested parties ask and continue to ask critical questions.
    Doubtful Digger has been pulled up over asking questions though.
    Supplying his own answers without the proof to back them up has been his downfall.


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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #28 on: February 12, 2016, 13:46 »
    I think we can all agree that it is the sport's best interest that interested parties ask and continue to ask critical questions.
    Doubtful Digger has been pulled up over asking questions though.
    Supplying his own answers without the proof to back them up has been his downfall.

    Exactly.

    When 2 + n = 4, where n is just personal opinion, and then consistently calling it 2 is defamation.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #29 on: February 12, 2016, 14:00 »
    We agree on that point. But, that makes me wonder why you and others who believe Sky were so dismissive of Ross Tucker? He saw irregularities, and asked questions about those irregularities.

    Ok, this is also personal opinion and I personally think Tucker sails very very close to the line on a regular basis.

    Without wanting this thread to get into our opinions on particular teams, let's assume that Sky aren't doping for the purposes of this explanation.

    So, Sky aren't doping and Tucker then says they must be.

    Sky are then very dismissive of him as they know they are clean. Tucker then thinks that Sky must be doping because they have dismissed his theory. Digger picks up on this and quotes Tucker saying that they dope. No proof, just opinion.

    Then someone remembers that DB once bought a doper a coffee in 2004. Etc etc.

    That is then presented as proof of doping by Digger despite there never having been a single word from anyone who has worked with DB or Sky in many years.

    Now, none of us actually know 100% whether Sky are doping or not but we all have our opinions.

    What Digger says has no proof and if it's broadcast every day of the year over several years to several thousand people, then that is defamatory.

    The fact that none of us have a scooby who is suing also suggests that Digger has overstepped the line with any number of parties.
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