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Flo

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Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2016, 14:26 »
I think we can all agree that it is the sport's best interest that interested parties ask and continue to ask critical questions.
Doubtful Digger has been pulled up over asking questions though.
Supplying his own answers without the proof to back them up has been his downfall.
Exactly.

When 2 + n = 4, where n is just personal opinion, and then consistently calling it 2 is defamation.
Each of us has an opinion on what "n" is. If voicing your opinion on social media is now punishable I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

This is just flipping scary. Before yesterday I'd have thought no one would be retarded enough to sue an anonymous person on twitter with a couple thousand followers because "they wrote mean things about me boohoo". What the actual flip. If Digger actually loses this case (I doubt it) no one will EVER dare to ask questions again, and even now, the threat of a potential lawsuit will make many people think twice about what they post on the internet. I know the British sports fans will be ecstatic with that result "Yay! No one will dare to question our heroic clean athletes again!", but in reality this should cause anyone with more than a single functioning brain cell to seriously scratch their head. It is just a flipping scary. Professional sport might be completely lost. What the hell.
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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #31 on: February 12, 2016, 14:48 »
     Again, I say that nobody is going to get sued for asking questions.

     The issue for me is not Digger or his agenda. In that respect I agree with Flo. He has a couple of thousand followers, so his sphere of influence is extremely small; a fringe interest.
     For my part, perhaps being from an "ancient" :D generation, my use of social media has never progressed beyond the use of forum.
     I have little interest in twitter, Facebook etc, beyond the odd update.
     So for me the issue is the bigger picture.
     Whether or not individuals should be allowed to make accusations, whoever extreme against known individuals that they are unable to substantiate, while themselves remaining anonymous.
     Where, if we are indeed to draw a line, should that line be?
    Or should social media remain free of boundaries; a land where anything goes and hang any consequences?
    Do individuals on social media have the right to expect immunity for their musings, or should their be a reckoning in extreme cases?

     
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    L'arri

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #32 on: February 12, 2016, 15:01 »
    Each of us has an opinion on what "n" is. If voicing your opinion on social media is now punishable I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

    This is just flipping scary. Before yesterday I'd have thought no one would be retarded enough to sue an anonymous person on twitter with a couple thousand followers because "they wrote mean things about me boohoo". What the actual flip. If Digger actually loses this case (I doubt it) no one will EVER dare to ask questions again, and even now, the threat of a potential lawsuit will make many people think twice about what they post on the internet. I know the British sports fans will be ecstatic with that result "Yay! No one will dare to question our heroic clean athletes again!", but in reality this should cause anyone with more than a single functioning brain cell to seriously scratch their head. It is just a flipping scary. Professional sport might be completely lost. What the hell.

    It really depends on who and what though, Flol. I hadn't read his stuff in a long time but perhaps those couple of thousand followers went to his head and he said something really damaging. Or perhaps they didn't. I guess we'd have to sit there at the far end of his newspipe 24/7 to be sure nothing was defamatory. The rest is, like much of this thread, very interesting speculation.

    Twitter does seem to have an interesting effect on some people. It's like a soapbox, it can give you your fifteen minutes in the spotlight, only your audience can't throw rotten tomatoes.

    I'm not saying that's what happened with Digger, that he got to liking the sound of his own pronunciations, but he did get to be a bit shrill and in that climate it's entirely possible he took a step too far. Certainly, social media has the conditions to generate a few false prophets. Aaron Brown, whom Digger particularly despised, being a notable example.

    As for the rest, money purchases power and power always trumps those who have something to say. To mount a suit against some nobody on Twitter you have to be three things: pretty powerful (to have the means to sue), very capricious and incredibly thin-skinned. Poor or well-adjusted victims of libel don't sue. So I think that narrows it down a bit.

    Historically, media people tend to fit this profile: W Randolph Hearst and Cecil King both dished out all sorts of nasty stuff about all and sundry through their newspapers but, though you'd think they'd be too busy to notice, each threw an almighty huff when comparatively tiny people had the temerity either to criticise them or behave not exactly as they wanted.
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    Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #33 on: February 12, 2016, 15:12 »
    Someone we know has just written 'Crookson is on Sky's payroll'.

    That is defamatory and has no substantiation especially now Oli has gone to TDD ;)

    I think the person who wrote that should perhaps be a little more careful, and that could never be confused with asking questions, but heh it isn't about what I think.

    If we take the US as an example, libel is big business, rightly or wrongly.



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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #34 on: February 12, 2016, 20:47 »

    One of the last things I saw of his was equating two different pictures of Serena Williams taken at different times (and camera angles) as proof of her doping. Now I think she is a doper too, but that is solely an opinion based on skepticism of sport in general and her place in it. Not a single shred of poof. Two pictures aren't that. So there's a clear line in this example.

    That sort of comments (and worse) is what likely landed him in hot water and doesn't help him one bit when trying to be outspoken about what's wrong in cycling.


    This is the last thing of his I saw aswell. He'd used a photo of her mid back hand at the point of impact with the ball in 2016 to make a comparison with a photo of her from years before when she had her arms at her side waiting to serve.

    He's also done it with Gareth Bale a while back where he showed a photo of him full out sprinting alongside christiano ronaldo in training against a photo of him lying on a medical table at the start of his Real Madrid medical.

    In both the insinuation was look at how much more muscular/defined they looked in each picture as perceived evidence of doping. Problem is they are completely incomparable pictures. after a bit of physical exertion your body will look a bit different blood will flow to the muscles etc. Even a tubster like me after a few minutes on a rowing machine has my stomach become a bit more defined and the veins in my forearms start to show through so his "comparison photos" were well complete rubbish as they were in no way a genuine comparison
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #35 on: February 13, 2016, 03:11 »
    If we take the US as an example, libel is big business, rightly or wrongly.
    It is? In the US?

    From my humble perspective, it seems that hyperbolic vitriol has become the common mode of expression across all platforms, from small niche radio shows to major national TV networks. Ridiculous statements are made on a daily basis that target specific individuals in the most unflattering light imaginable. But I don't see much being done to combat that in the courts, unless there is clear and undeniable damage to one's reputation and possible livelihood.

    It would appear, to me, that there is simply so much noise out there that most of it is either ignored, or responded to in kind.

    This is really just a causal observation of mine though, as I haven't much data on hand either way. It's just my current impression of things.
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  • « Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 04:17 by Drummer Boy »

    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #36 on: February 13, 2016, 03:58 »
    Yeah, nah. Over the years I've seen no proof of your opinion here about his sensitive side, and really even if it is there, not enough to claim to be "frequently on display".
    It's not my opinion. There were plenty of instances where his tweets were in support of, or bringing attention to, those who were either disadvantaged or suffering some sort of misfortune. Of course these tweets would've been outnumbered by his more notorious ones, but if they occurred once or twice a week, or a few times every month, I would consider that to be "frequent" over the course of time. The fact that his account his currently inactive makes retrieval of such impossible. But I'm quite confident in my stance. If others haven't paid close enough attention, that's not my problem.


    One of the last things I saw of his was equating two different pictures of Serena Williams taken at different times (and camera angles) as proof of her doping. Now I think she is a doper too, but that is solely an opinion based on skepticism of sport in general and her place in it. Not a single shred of poof. Two pictures aren't that. So there's a clear line in this example.
    Well, that is a noteworthy perspective in that I think it reflects a lot of what transpires between Digger and many of his followers (even if they don't officially "follow" his Twitter account). I think Serena dopes too. Lots of people do. But Digger is willing to put it out there, loud and clear. That may seem obnoxious or even disgusting to some, but to others it's not nearly as obnoxious or disgusting as the suspension of disbelief that some of these athletes expect us to buy into. The lying and outright distortion of truths that's been handed to the public time and time again by elite competitors is far more disturbing to me. Williams is rich and famous. Tremendously so. What impact could one mostly-anonymous person on Twitter possibly have on that fame and wealth? The balance of power is absurd. International super star vs one, vocal critic. It's not even a contest. She, and her people, shouldn't care less if she has nothing to hide.

    As to using pics as evidence:
    This same point has been raised elsewhere in this thread. Do any of you seriously think that Digger was basing all his skepticism on questionable photos? No, of course he wasn't. And this goes beyond just one tennis player. Digger has consistently shown no favoritism when it comes to calling out various sports. He has all the same doubts as many of you, for all the same reasons. The pics are used only as an additional hammer to hit a nail that has already been driven deep by years of legitimate questions and suspicions. I don't see any reason to take him so literally on every, single thing he posts. Maybe he's just stirring things up? Maybe he just thinks it's amusing? The (much) larger point is: Many people suspect his targets of doing exactly what he suggests they're doing: Cheating at their sport and living a lie in the process. Since countless pro athletes have shown such little regard for honesty and integrity for decades now, perhaps Digger doesn't feel all that bound to incontrovertible-proof-only posts.

    Look, I'm not hear to speak for him, but at the same time, I don't think others should speak for him either by suggesting that everything he posts is his literal interpretation of reality. Perhaps there's a bit more grey in there.


    Not to mention, as of yet, none of us really has any idea as to why his Twitter account is currently inactive.
    Is it related to the recent policy implementation from Twitter itself?
    Has he been targeted by an individual, or an organized body?
    Will such an act even be binding based on his location?

    We just don't know.
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  • « Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 04:31 by Drummer Boy »

    AG

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #37 on: February 13, 2016, 09:02 »
    But DB there is a vast difference between saying "I think Serena dopes'   and presenting that opinion as fact.  Between asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies - and the nasty, vitriolic garbage that seems to spill from Digger on a daily basis.

    You can call people out, you can believe they are doping, that they are cheating and the lowest of low for doing so ... but the level of public ridicule, of nastiness and general slagging off - mostly based on a general feeling of dodginess but not much actual fact - gets too much.

    It is true that Serena (and his other targets) may indeed be doing exactly what he is accusing them of, but to make such allegations in public, present them as fact, harass and slag them to the level that he does .... you always court the danger of them responding to force you to stop.

    Personally, I dont blame them for suing him simply to make it stop.   

    He tweets this, other retweet or comment on it, and it becomes something they have to deal with.   It ends up with people inciting others to do such things as throw urine or spit at riders.

    Yes we live in an environment of free speech - but you also should not be able to slag people off to that extent and face no ramifications for what results.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #38 on: February 13, 2016, 12:27 »
    But DB there is a vast difference between saying "I think Serena dopes'   and presenting that opinion as fact.  Between asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies - and the nasty, vitriolic garbage that seems to spill from Digger on a daily basis.

    You can call people out, you can believe they are doping, that they are cheating and the lowest of low for doing so ... but the level of public ridicule, of nastiness and general slagging off - mostly based on a general feeling of dodginess but not much actual fact - gets too much.

    It is true that Serena (and his other targets) may indeed be doing exactly what he is accusing them of, but to make such allegations in public, present them as fact, harass and slag them to the level that he does .... you always court the danger of them responding to force you to stop.

    Personally, I dont blame them for suing him simply to make it stop.   

    He tweets this, other retweet or comment on it, and it becomes something they have to deal with.   It ends up with people inciting others to do such things as throw urine or spit at riders.

    Yes we live in an environment of free speech - but you also should not be able to slag people off to that extent and face no ramifications for what results.

    Couldn't agree more.

    With regard to Digger, The Clear tweeted that Digger has closed down as he is being sued for libel. Obviously The Clear is never wrong as he told me that last week whilst calling me an idiot.

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  • Flo

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #39 on: February 13, 2016, 17:01 »
    Couldn't agree more.

    With regard to Digger, The Clear tweeted that Digger has closed down as he is being sued for libel. Obviously The Clear is never wrong as he told me that last week whilst calling me an idiot.
    But to be fair you and your mates over at Bikeradar have called The Clear names as well
    I saw my twitter account has made an appearance on there too - twice in the last few days actually - thankfully it appears they just find my opinions hilarious and don't actually assume I am a very unpleasant person based solely on my tweets.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #40 on: February 14, 2016, 17:27 »
    My experience with & opinion of Digger:
    He's like a broken record, always saying the same things over and over again. Most often with nothing to substantiate it.
    If he's challenged himself he behaves childishly, sees himself above and beyond reproach.
    I followed him for a while, then un-followed when I found his tirades becoming too boring.

    I don't agree with a lot of what he says - but (as long as it's presented as opinion, not fact) he should have the right to spout his nonsense. Nobody is forced to listen.
    And that's about as much as I care.
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    Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #41 on: February 14, 2016, 17:41 »


    Digger is okay.
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  • Trudgin

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #42 on: February 14, 2016, 18:50 »

    Oh why not dip in... I've waded through the mire and i am not going to Quote..

    but Im more with Drummer Boy than others.

     I've had my own on off 'relationship' with Digger from following to blocking to enduring to applauding - his account always said it was satire so I'd question how someone could sue him, but then someone managed to get Mr Festina thrown off twitter very easily.

    I believe he has a place.. you could never say he played favourites,, he went for everyone equally.  and yet didnt flog those who were guilty.  He just hated hypocracy and so do... so I'll miss him

    Now Ross Tucker..... aye, i would rather have a doctor who wants everyone to provide the same information regualrily, and have it monitored to build a history.

    and to regulate it... which is roughlywhat he was talking about in SA on the interview in cycling podcast. thats everyone... english, sort of english, spanish, italian, russian... everyone to provide the same info. Then, those that understand it could maybe actually learn how to show when high numbers are normal or not...

    I know nothing about the science.... so dont shout at me if thats wrong... ;)

    thats my tuppence...
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    del1962

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #43 on: February 14, 2016, 23:12 »
    In a way I am glad he has been wiped, because it was annoying when someone I was following would retweet him.

    Have absolutely no respect for him, he is like one of those self deluded people who always thinks he is right when he is often wrong and if he hadn't known Paul Kimmage he would have had far fewer followers.



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  • vayerism

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #44 on: February 15, 2016, 09:01 »
    Just popping in, to thank a few on here, for not being completely ridiculous... and hand out a mega lol at those who were.

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  • Ram

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #45 on: February 15, 2016, 10:19 »
    The problem with discussing other forums is unneeded cats/mice/geese get dragged in.
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  • stereojet

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #46 on: February 15, 2016, 10:52 »
    ...and he's back this morning.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #47 on: February 15, 2016, 10:57 »
    Just popping in, to thank a few on here, for not being completely ridiculous... and hand out a mega lol at those who were.

    Oh good. I guess we can look forward to some more unfounded opinion presented as fact here as well as on Twitter.
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #48 on: February 15, 2016, 11:02 »
    such a cry baby...

     :angry :angry :angry

    Chill out dude  :cool
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #49 on: February 15, 2016, 11:06 »
    such a cry baby...

     :angry :angry :angry

    Chill out dude  :cool



    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #50 on: February 15, 2016, 11:08 »
    WOW... what a comprehensive and complete argument.... That's me put in my place.... :s

     :s :s :lol :lol
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #51 on: February 15, 2016, 11:09 »
    OK, we did pretty well up to this point, folks. Can we return to discussing the topic as we had been doing above? :cool
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  • pastronef

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #52 on: February 15, 2016, 11:10 »
    guys, take it away from here. there are twitter and the clinic where to argue
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #53 on: February 15, 2016, 11:11 »
    OK, we did pretty well up to this point, folks. Can we return to discussing the topic as we had been doing above? :cool

     :cool
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #54 on: February 15, 2016, 11:12 »
    WOW... what a comprehensive and complete argument.... That's me put in my place.... :s

     :s :s :lol :lol

    That's odd, it's usually you who's missing a comprehensive and complete argument.

    Anyway I've unfollowed you on Twitter and this is the last reply I make to a post of yours on here. It's incredibly boring and full of holes.

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  • vayerism

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #55 on: February 15, 2016, 11:13 »
    That's odd, it's usually you who's missing a comprehensive and complete argument.

    Anyway I've unfollowed you on Twitter and this is the last reply I make to a post of yours on here. It's incredibly boring and full of holes.

    Followed me this morning, unfollowed now... Not gonna lie, that feels like a mixed message... Please point to the holes?
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #56 on: February 15, 2016, 13:33 »
    It is? In the US?

    From my humble perspective, it seems that hyperbolic vitriol has become the common mode of expression across all platforms, from small niche radio shows to major national TV networks. Ridiculous statements are made on a daily basis that target specific individuals in the most unflattering light imaginable. But I don't see much being done to combat that in the courts, unless there is clear and undeniable damage to one's reputation and possible livelihood.

    It would appear, to me, that there is simply so much noise out there that most of it is either ignored, or responded to in kind.

    This is really just a causal observation of mine though, as I haven't much data on hand either way. It's just my current impression of things.
    You're right I think. US is the land of the free (speechwise). UK is the land of the Superinjunction
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #57 on: February 15, 2016, 15:20 »
    ...and he's back this morning.
    Interesting. I hadn't seen that yet. But before I add anything more to this thread, I wanted to post my response to AG. I tried to respond the other night but this forum got nuked again just as I was posting. So before I expose myself to whatever is transpiring on Twitter and beyond, I'll post my thoughts as they were a couple of days ago. The context may have been lost by now, but these were my thoughts at the time.
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    But DB there is a vast difference between saying "I think Serena dopes'   and presenting that opinion as fact.
    Of course there is. But there's also a difference between someone posting something with conviction on Twitter, and someone presenting something as "fact" in a court of law. We discussed this very same principle in another thread some time ago. I liken it more to the type of conversation that might take place during a car ride with friends. "That guy is totally doped up! It's so obvious. Look at his background, the people he associates with, his inexplicable transformation over a short period of time—I guarantee you that dude is doping!"

    Social Media has placed those types of conversations—that take place countless times a day around the world in private—into a heretofore untested realm. We now live in a blurry mix of public and private. People in all walks of life now post things on Twitter and Facebook that they would never say directly to a reporter or in front of a camera. It's an odd phenomenon that has yet to fully sort itself out.

    People present things as "facts" all the time in small group conversations that they know damn well would never fit any legal definition of "fact." If Digger, or anyone else, tweets with the utmost conviction about someone's supposed transgressions, it's still really just their opinion. How could such an approach be construed as being presented as "fact"? Even if someone says, "That guy dopes. It's a fact." It's still nothing more than an opinion on Twitter.


    You can call people out, you can believe they are doping, that they are cheating and the lowest of low for doing so ... but the level of public ridicule, of nastiness and general slagging off - mostly based on a general feeling of dodginess but not much actual fact - gets too much.
    Again though, I'm not here to endorse Digger across the board. He is often too crass for my own tastes, but other times I find him to be either hilarious, informative and/or thought provoking. I could say the same of people like George Carlin and Bill Maher. They both say things at times that make me cringe—and I could say the same of members of this forum, for that matter. But in any of those circumstances, the negative doesn't detract from the benefits of my paying attention to what they have to say.

    What I really wanted to touch on though was the notion that someone should become a legal target not because of supposed untruths, but because they were simply being rude and insensitive while presenting those supposed untruths. That, to me, is a far more dangerous precedent.


    Personally, I dont blame them for suing him simply to make it stop.
    Careful. We have no idea if he's been sued or not, or by whom, and for what.

    It ends up with people inciting others to do such things as throw urine or spit at riders.
    To me, this seems to be overreaching. I understand the concern, don't get me wrong. But lets be serious about this. Lance was spit upon long before social media was even in place. And this discussion can't take place without citing the "fact" that Eddy Merckx was punched in the kidney by a roadside fan...in 1975.
    @WhoWasResponsibleForThat
    #TwitterDidntExist

    Connecting the dots between Digger, and Froome supposedly having urine thrown on him (Cavendish had claimed the same indignity long before Froome, and Digger rarely, if ever, mentions Cavendish) is not much different than the logic Digger himself is criticized for when connecting the doping dots, as it were.

    For the record, I don't believe that anyone should be allowed to say absolutely anything they want about someone else in a defamatory fashion no matter what. I do think there is a line. It's extremely difficult to define that line, but I do believe one exists. The problem in this case is that perhaps Digger crossed a line that he shouldn't have with someone. Does that now suddenly negate all the other things he did say that don't cross a line? He's gone silent, and considering his nature as we know it, that, in of itself, seems to be a rather dramatic turn of events.

    But much of what he had to offer was more along the lines of the general hypocrisy that stretches across all sport. Did he aggressively target individuals along the way? Most certainly. But the bigger point was always, always, that these problems were endemic, and that to blame the individual was to miss the whole point. He targeted those individuals who he felt were part of the problem, all while maintaining the the problem was always far bigger than the individual.

    Maybe he offended some lawyers at the UCI. Who knows?
    That still doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t be allowed to express the utter dismay felt by so many in regards to athletics and rugby. That’s where the problem truly lies. Not in the digital rantings of one person.
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  • Yellow Peril

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #58 on: February 16, 2016, 10:40 »
    I always thought digger was a bit of an irrelevance. He never came across as someone interested in cycling ...just the drug aspect. Also he had that tag line on his twitter header which stated that everythinghe was saying was just in humour, so if that was correct anyone taking him seriously was manifestly mistaken or alternatively he didn't have the courage of his convictions.
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    Joelsim

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    Re: Has Digger dug his grave?
    « Reply #59 on: February 16, 2016, 10:45 »
    I always thought digger was a bit of an irrelevance. He never came across as someone interested in cycling ...just the drug aspect. Also he had that tag line on his twitter header which stated that everythinghe was saying was just in humour, so if that was correct anyone taking him seriously was manifestly mistaken or alternatively he didn't have the courage of his convictions.

    A coward, hiding behind an anonymous account
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