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Re: Meldonium
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2016, 10:13 »
http://pilarmartinescudero.es/OctNov15/Midronate%20interferencia%20con%20cromatografia.pdf

Half life for about 6,5 hours...

Found that as well, however this doesn't answer how long the glow time is for a normal dose, and if it would be possible to take an abnormally large dose without over dosing (probably not). Of cause this defense while being valid also does make it painfully obvious that you was indeed trying to cheat.
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #61 on: March 09, 2016, 10:15 »
    http://pilarmartinescudero.es/OctNov15/Midronate%20interferencia%20con%20cromatografia.pdf

    Half life for about 6,5 hours...

    Good paper, thanks for that.

    The authors reckoned that their method would allow for detection at their lower limit "a couple of days after administration". So highly unlikely to have been administered in 2015.

    But it's the date of the test that is relevant, right? Testing positive and arguing that it was legal when you took it won't wash. You failed a drugs test in 2016, you go by the 2016 rules.
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #63 on: March 09, 2016, 11:41 »
    https://twitter.com/AP_Sports/status/707529563480461312

    the spreading to the old eastern Block starts
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #64 on: March 09, 2016, 12:22 »
    But it's the date of the test that is relevant, right? Testing positive and arguing that it was legal when you took it won't wash. You failed a drugs test in 2016, you go by the 2016 rules.
    Yes, the positive test is the anti-doping rules violation - regardless of when the drug was administered.[1]

    She tested positive for meldonium in 2016, when the substance was on the prohibited list. She's admitted to taking the substance, so it's a pretty clear-cut case. No need for a B sample or anything.
    4-year ban coming up - maybe with the possibility to get a reduction if ... yeah, if what? Spilling the beans on her suppliers of meldonium, a drug not available in the US?
     1. Flashback to Contador's clenbuterol case and the possibility of a re-infusion
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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #65 on: March 09, 2016, 13:03 »
    [1]


     1. Flashback to Contador's clenbuterol case and the possibility of a re-infusion
    This is a flashback worth having.  :cool

    Is the issue that despite the fact they've stopped taking the drug, they haven't been able to screen for it and are now re-infusing it?
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #66 on: March 09, 2016, 13:06 »
    WADA/ Readie has said a one year ban is typical...

    Which

    1. is based on nothing as the drugs has been banned for less than 12 weeks
    and
    2. breaks most of his own rules.

    But that's WADA, useless, reactive and nonsensical
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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #68 on: March 10, 2016, 09:18 »
    Relatedly, I thought this was interesting
    https://twitter.com/Vcernohorsky/status/707367368616443904
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #69 on: March 10, 2016, 09:34 »
    Relatedly, I thought this was interesting
    https://twitter.com/Vcernohorsky/status/707367368616443904

    Doesn't say that much of itself except perhaps that it might conjure for some the image of a Leinders-style risk assessor, or a svengali who offers a discreet 'try this instead'... The imagination is a remarkable thing. :P

    For me, it always comes back to something Bassons told an interviewer some years ago: he still didn't see the need, even in the modern era, for team doctors when a race doctor or a family generalist would suffice for any reasonably foreseeable medical situation.
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    cj2002

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #70 on: March 10, 2016, 09:39 »
    Relatedly, I thought this was interesting
    https://twitter.com/Vcernohorsky/status/707367368616443904

    It's a suitably vague statement, but one that will no doubt give the conspiracy theorists something to chew on. If British Cycling had someone to warn the riders that something had been banned, what were they taking before it got banned...

    Grey areas, always grey areas.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #71 on: March 10, 2016, 09:55 »
    If British Cycling had someone to warn the riders that something had been banned, what were they taking before it got banned...

    Presumably everything else.

    Or to rephrase:
    It might lead one to believe that certain athletes are taking everything they can get their hands on that isn't banned, and making the most of it right up until that particular substance/procedure is banned.

    Doping vs Cheating, as Vayerism suggested upthread.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #72 on: March 10, 2016, 09:56 »
    It's a suitably vague statement, but one that will no doubt give the conspiracy theorists something to chew on. If British Cycling had someone to warn the riders that something had been banned, what were they taking before it got banned...
    Brailsford & co. always said that they step 'right up to the line, but never cross it'.
    In other words, if it isn't banned, you can be pretty sure they're taking it. Following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of it.

    Is it doping in the legal sense of the word? No.
    Is it morally questionable? Very much so.

    For me, it always comes back to something Bassons told an interviewer some years ago: he still didn't see the need, even in the modern era, for team doctors when a race doctor or a family generalist would suffice for any reasonably foreseeable medical situation.
    He does have a point. But I don't see the harm in, if the funds are there, having someone at your team/federation take care of all the anti-doping lists and tell athletes when there are new additions to them. It does make life easier for the athletes, mentally, to not have to track all that on their own. However, a 'team anti-doping officer' doesn't absolve athletes of their responsibility to stay updated - it's just a help.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #73 on: March 10, 2016, 10:03 »
    Going forward, though, this could be a way to improve on responsibility: The responsibility to be informed of any and all banned substances could be moved from individual athletes to their team, easing the burden for the athletes; in turn, athletes must inform the 'team anti-doping officer' of every substance they take (which they likely do already, anyway) - and the team can't say 'he/she took those cough drops on their own' anymore.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #74 on: March 10, 2016, 10:15 »
    Going forward, though, this could be a way to improve on responsibility: The responsibility to be informed of any and all banned substances could be moved from individual athletes to their team, easing the burden for the athletes
    But what of individual sports such as tennis or golf or...um...triathlon where there isn't a team?

    Also, wouldn't that still leave some wiggle room for the athlete?
    "Yes, I was sent an email from my team with the updated WADA list but I hadn't opened it yet."

    The burden should still fall on the individual.
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  • just some guy

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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #76 on: March 10, 2016, 10:38 »
    Presumably everything else.

    Or to rephrase:
    It might lead one to believe that certain athletes are taking everything they can get their hands on that isn't banned, and making the most of it right up until that particular substance/procedure is banned.

    Doping vs Cheating, as Vayerism suggested upthread.
    That conclusion only works if you assume he is talking about products that have no medicinal or nutritional value in themselves, and are just being used to give a performance enhancing edge before the authorities cotton on. Even Meldonium has a medicinal use, it's just highly unlikely that all these eastern blok athletes were using it because of that.

    The interesting part of it to me is why so many are getting popped when this is, as Wiggins said, a regular occurrence - product gets banned, medical advisors tell athletes to stop using product or how to beat test. Something seems to have gone wrong with that process for a large number of athletes, some very high profile indeed, for whom it is unthinkable that they wouldn't be aware of upcoming changes to a product's legality.
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #77 on: March 10, 2016, 11:03 »
    All drugs have a medical use, to argue that they have to be "solely performance enhancing" is redundant. EPO is medicine, so are transfusions, steroids too.

    The issue is around the prescription of these drugs by doctors employed by a team. I think it can be simplified, if the illness/aliment will go away with rest, then rest.

    Then TUEs become only for chronic or genetic diseases/conditions. clears up a grey area.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #78 on: March 10, 2016, 11:17 »
    Brailsford & co. always said that they step 'right up to the line, but never cross it'.
    In other words, if it isn't banned, you can be pretty sure they're taking it. Following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of it.

    Is it doping in the legal sense of the word? No.
    Is it morally questionable? Very much so.
    He does have a point. But I don't see the harm in, if the funds are there, having someone at your team/federation take care of all the anti-doping lists and tell athletes when there are new additions to them. It does make life easier for the athletes, mentally, to not have to track all that on their own. However, a 'team anti-doping officer' doesn't absolve athletes of their responsibility to stay updated - it's just a help.

    I saw the interview with Wiggins and I saw several others from various people including rugby teams etc. They all pretty much said the same thing.

    Wiggins said if something is banned which people have been taking then a guy at British Cycling says immediately 'Don't take this any more'.

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  • vayerism

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #79 on: March 10, 2016, 11:31 »
    This is the problem, and it isn't the fault of the athlete(s), they are simply playing the hand they have been dealt.

    It is the fault of WADA and their inability to regulate drug use within the sport, you can talk about funding all you like, how much does Readie earn? how much to do they spend on conferences/self promotion? Too much.

    They are doing a horrible job and asking to be congratulated. Meldonium was not banned for ten years, athletes take it to enhance performance, that's doping. Lets say its worth 1% (for the sake of argument), its not hard to detect, so WADA knew it was being taken, they allowed athletes to take it and compete. Then they banned it and are now condemning the users of it. while a host of PEDs remain unregulated, not on the watch list and in use. WADA are responsible for this, they left the gap.

    The simple fact is with a positive test rate of 1.1%, they are allowing doping, because the chances of getting caught, come down to nearly zero.

    So, it is not the fault of an athlete, if the game is rigged.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #80 on: March 10, 2016, 11:41 »
    This is the problem, and it isn't the fault of the athlete(s), they are simply playing the hand they have been dealt.

    It is the fault of WADA and their inability to regulate drug use within the sport, you can talk about funding all you like, how much does Readie earn? how much to do they spend on conferences/self promotion? Too much.

    They are doing a horrible job and asking to be congratulated. Meldonium was not banned for ten years, athletes take it to enhance performance, that's doping. Lets say its worth 1% (for the sake of argument), its not hard to detect, so WADA knew it was being taken, they allowed athletes to take it and compete. Then they banned it and are now condemning the users of it. while a host of PEDs remain unregulated, not on the watch list and in use. WADA are responsible for this, they left the gap.

    The simple fact is with a positive test rate of 1.1%, they are allowing doping, because the chances of getting caught, come down to nearly zero.

    So, it is not the fault of an athlete, if the game is rigged.

    I agree, but it's a constantly moving dynamic.

    The question is where does doping start? Vitamin C tablets? Iron supplements?

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  • vayerism

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #81 on: March 10, 2016, 11:46 »
    Where does it start? Good question.

    I'd go with prescription drugs. including illegal and non FDA approved to get rid of anything in a clinical trial.

    I'd be comfortable with drugs that can be brought over the counter being used (most have upper limits anyway)

    I'd also remove team medical care, I don't see why it is required. GP/in country medical support should be enough.
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #82 on: March 10, 2016, 11:53 »
    Where does it start? Good question.

    I'd go with prescription drugs. including illegal and non FDA approved to get rid of anything in a clinical trial.

    I'd be comfortable with drugs that can be brought over the counter being used (most have upper limits anyway)

    I'd also remove team medical care, I don't see why it is required. GP/in country medical support should be enough.

    Anything non-licensed is already on the banned list, no? GW1516, for example...

    Supplementation is fine if you have a deficiency, or as a boost to your immune system (Vitamin C to reduce the chances of getting a cold while riding Paris-Nice, for example). But the science behind most supplements is shaky to say the least.

    OTC drugs... they are still drugs, and if you need to self-medicate for any length of time you should be consulting a doctor.

    The idea of removing team doctors is an interesting one... I think L'arri, quoting Bassons, hit the nail on the head. If you are too sick to ride, don't ride. See your normal doctor. The only reason for teams to have medical personnel is to have control over what a rider puts into their body. And we've seen before what can happen when riders are forced to cede that control to their employers...
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  • AG

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #83 on: March 10, 2016, 12:30 »
    This is the problem, and it isn't the fault of the athlete(s), they are simply playing the hand they have been dealt.

    It is the fault of WADA and their inability to regulate drug use within the sport, you can talk about funding all you like, how much does Readie earn? how much to do they spend on conferences/self promotion? Too much.

    They are doing a horrible job and asking to be congratulated.
    Meldonium was not banned for ten years, athletes take it to enhance performance, that's doping. Lets say its worth 1% (for the sake of argument), its not hard to detect, so WADA knew it was being taken, they allowed athletes to take it and compete. Then they banned it and are now condemning the users of it. while a host of PEDs remain unregulated, not on the watch list and in use. WADA are responsible for this, they left the gap.

    The simple fact is with a positive test rate of 1.1%, they are allowing doping, because the chances of getting caught, come down to nearly zero.

    So, it is not the fault of an athlete, if the game is rigged.

    I think this is a major simplification.

    They arent doing a horrible job.  They dont - they cant - know all of the things that athletes are taking for performance enhancement purposes.  They cannot analyse every new drug that every country produces each year.

    They found out that quite a lot of Russian athletes were taking this, so they took steps to analyse it and ban in.   That takes time.  That takes a process - you cant just ban something overnight because you THINK it might be performance enhancing.  You have to prove where it fits into the code ... and give the athletes time and notice

    So they put it on the provisional list last year, notified everyone and its on the banned list from 1 January. 


    Yes those athletes who were taking it previously were taking it legally.  It wasnt banned ...
    All athletes were notified of the new banned list
    I understand that Russian athletes in particular were notified by email about THIS particular drug BECAUSE of its prolific use.


    Yes I think athletes taking this drug for performance enhancement previously were pushing a boundary ... the same as taking tramadol or caffeine or other legal substances.   

    But now its banned, if they get caught they will get done.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #84 on: March 10, 2016, 12:35 »
    All drugs have a medical use, to argue that they have to be "solely performance enhancing" is redundant. EPO is medicine, so are transfusions, steroids too.

    ...
    Yes I didn't phrase myself well. I suppose I meant taking medicines which aren't a reasonable and proportionate response to a medical condition.

    For example, I am currently recovering from bronchitis and so I'm currently taking salbutomol and beclometasone. If an athlete was suffering from a chest infection and these two drugs were not on the banned list, he'd be mad not to take them. Would he mad not to take them if he was nearly healthy? But completely healthy? Maybe that's cheating at a certain hard-to-define level of healthiness. (I know that there is some controversy surrounding the benefits of Salbutomol to athletes but it's topical for me right now)

    If these drugs became banned, then he would expect his medical advisor to tell him what he now can/can't take, whether he is currently ill or not and irrespective of what he was currently taking. And I interpret this as the not very sinister process Wiggins was talking about.

    The issue with using GPs to prescribe drugs is taht they don't know whether they're banned or contain things that are banned. That is why athletes need specific advice on the medical rules that apply to their sport. I actually wonder whether the opposite is better, to have accreditation and regulation of medical personnel who will have to answer to any positive tests. The issue has always been accountability, there's an endless supply of athletes who are prepared to cheat so maybe it would be better to focus on cutting off the supply of enablers.
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  • just some guy

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    vayerism

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #86 on: March 10, 2016, 13:03 »
    Lots to get through, so I'll give it a go.

    1. "They arent doing a horrible job.  They dont - they cant - know all of the things that athletes are taking for performance enhancement purposes.  They cannot analyse every new drug that every country produces each year."

    That's their job, to know, and to get ahead, to protect clean sport and to catch dopers. In 2014 (latest available figures) their positive test rate so 1.1%, is that representative of doping prevalence? I would say no. I would say it isn't even close.

    Having such a weak anti doping agency encourages doping, because athletes that do dope (for whatever reason) are unlikely to be caught, artificially raising the required standard beyond clean athletes, so what then does the clean athlete do? the answer is of course obvious.

    The inability of WADA to regulate this environment, is a contributory factor in the doping culture that we see, it allows it, while not supporting or enforcing.

    2. "If these drugs became banned, then he would expect his medical advisor to tell him what he now can/can't take, whether he is currently ill or not and irrespective of what he was currently taking. And I interpret this as the not very sinister process Wiggins was talking about.

    The issue with using GPs to prescribe drugs is taht they don't know whether they're banned or contain things that are banned"

    I don't have too much to say about Wiggins on this, its a fairly obvious statement, in essence it's my medical care is looked after by the medical team and that they occasionally take things that are later banned. This is not surprising.

    I have no problem with drugs being taken for a medical condition, of course I don't. I think all prescription drugs should be on the banned list and an athlete shouldn't be racing or training, the drugs should be prescribed by an independent doctor and each course of treatment should require another consultation and a TUE. Which is then made public.

    How about that? public TUEs, rider/athlete, drug and prescribing doctor? any objections?
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  • stereojet

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #87 on: March 10, 2016, 15:08 »
    I'm sure very few fans would object to that, but I'd wonder about the athletes themselves: do they have a right to medical confidentiality?
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #88 on: March 10, 2016, 15:12 »
    Give them a number, remove the name (that was probably a bit much). It removes a little accountability, but gives a little respect back, which is important.

    Athlete number. Drug. Prescribing Doctor

    Happy days.
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Meldonium
    « Reply #89 on: March 10, 2016, 15:31 »
    I have no problem with drugs being taken for a medical condition, of course I don't. I think all prescription drugs should be on the banned list and an athlete shouldn't be racing or training, the drugs should be prescribed by an independent doctor and each course of treatment should require another consultation and a TUE. Which is then made public.

    How about that? public TUEs, rider/athlete, drug and prescribing doctor? any objections?

    I don't know about all prescription drugs being on the banned list. What about basic antihistamines during hayfever season? Or oral contraceptives in the female peloton? There are plenty of prescription drugs that you could be taking for things that don't relate to your ability to ride.

    As for the rest of your points. Independent doctor giving out TUEs, rather than team staff? YES. Public database of TUEs given (even if the names of rider and/or doctor are redacted)? YES AGAIN.

    It's an extension of AG's point about WADA. They took action on meldonium[1] reacting to a known situation that was being exploited. I would argue that the TUE system is a loophole that is being exploited by teams. So close the loophole - there is fine-print to be worked out, but I can't find a serious reason not to do it.
     1. Look at that, this post is almost on topic..!
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