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Poll

Will the UK leave the EU or not?

Yes and they should
4 (16.7%)
Yes, but they shouldn't
7 (29.2%)
No, but they should
1 (4.2%)
No and they shouldn't
8 (33.3%)
What referendum?
4 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24


barrus

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UK Ref
« on: June 15, 2016, 09:43 »
As many of you know I am currently living in the UK and there is this big referendum coming next week. It will decide whether the UK will remain in the EU or leave the EU.
Since this forum has a large contingent of UK members I was wondering what your opinion is.

Personally, as many of you know I am currently living in the UK and as an EU citizen this referendum does not make me feel welcome and looks, perhaps from the outside, be based on xenophobic fear, an idea that England still should have the British Empire and a general disregard for any sort of rational thought.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #1 on: June 15, 2016, 09:54 »
    You're completely right barrus, it's horrendous.

    If it does end up being a leave vote then we are all fliped, economically and socially.

    Most of the leave voters need to be very careful what they wish for, but they're far too stupid to see that. To them, everything wrong with the world is down to immigrants.

    It's depressing.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #2 on: June 15, 2016, 10:15 »
    You're completely right barrus, it's horrendous.

    If it does end up being a leave vote then we are all fliped, economically and socially.

    Most of the leave voters need to be very careful what they wish for, but they're far too stupid to see that. To them, everything wrong with the world is down to immigrants.

    It's depressing.

    exactly that is the thing I don't get. Even disregarding the economic arguments, but the social arguments are not mentioned or not even considered by many. Much of the non-xenophobic arguments revolve around the NHS for example, but the reason the NHS is underfunded is not because of the EU, but because of the UK government, do they think it will get better with the same government still in place? Then there is the fact that this will grant the Tory government the possibility to strip away regulations concerning working conditions, environmental regulations. They even talked about going out of the European Convention of Human Rights, and they want to grant this government the power to do so, this government which is so willing to spy on its people already, store their data? I just don't understand any of this

    Also maybe I should not say this, but if England votes out and the outcome of the UK ref is leave, but Northern Ireland votes to stay in the EU, is there not a significant possibility that the IRA will re-emerge, especially if there will be some sort of change to the NI-Ireland relation?
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #3 on: June 15, 2016, 10:22 »
    exactly that is the thing I don't get. Even disregarding the economic arguments, but the social arguments are not mentioned or not even considered by many. Much of the non-xenophobic arguments revolve around the NHS for example, but the reason the NHS is underfunded is not because of the EU, but because of the UK government, do they think it will get better with the same government still in place? Then there is the fact that this will grant the Tory government the possibility to strip away regulations concerning working conditions, environmental regulations. They even talked about going out of the European Convention of Human Rights, and they want to grant this government the power to do so, this government which is so willing to spy on its people already, store their data? I just don't understand any of this

    Like I said, many people are thick, yet they are still allowed to vote (even though they have no idea what they are voting for). The leave voters are, on the whole, old, racist and/or uneducated.

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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #4 on: June 15, 2016, 10:26 »
    The IRA is certainly anti-EU. Ireland has reject several treaties before being asked to revote in a very democratic way ...

    With regards to xenophobia, I'm just wondering which side it is on. I mean I remember a clip promoting the EU a few years back, which sounds evidently racist to me.



    All for a Brexit
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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #5 on: June 15, 2016, 11:05 »
    Like I said, many people are thick, yet they are still allowed to vote (even though they have no idea what they are voting for). The leave voters are, on the whole, old, racist and/or uneducated.
    ...And there you have it, not a single, solitary reason for staying in, just a load of ad hominems. Maybe they're not the thick ones?
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #6 on: June 15, 2016, 11:13 »
    ...And there you have it, not a single, solitary reason for staying in, just a load of ad hominems. Maybe they're not the thick ones?

    he was responding to me in a post where I laid out several benefits: working condition regulations, environmental regulations, European Union Charter of Human Rights and the need to stay in the European Convention of Human Rights. A general protection from the current Tory government
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #7 on: June 15, 2016, 11:17 »
    he was responding to me in a post where I laid out several benefits: working condition regulations, environmental regulations, European Union Charter of Human Rights and the need to stay in the European Convention of Human Rights. A general protection from the current Tory government

    Can you practice law in the UK?
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #8 on: June 15, 2016, 11:18 »
    Can you practice law in the UK?

    What does that have to do with anything?
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #9 on: June 15, 2016, 11:26 »
    ...And there you have it, not a single, solitary reason for staying in, just a load of ad hominems. Maybe they're not the thick ones?


    Every financial body, 88% of economists, The Treasury, The IMF, most world leaders, all political parties except for the far right, just about every corporation, The City etc. Etc. have said that we would be fools to vote leave.

    The Leave campaign have based everything on so-called 'savings' of c. £10bn in what we pay into the EU and cutting down immigration.

    Frankly everyone with even the smallest idea about economics knows that the 'saving' is almost certainly going to be a huge black hole in the UK economy meaning that their false promises to put that money into the NHS is a disgraceful pee-take.

    So that leaves it to the immigrants debate. Who will be the first people to lose out when we have less money in the economy? The very people on low wages who are voting leave. Who will they blame? The immigrants.

    All of this isn't even considering who'll be in power - the hard right of the Conservative party and a stronger Ukip.

    It could be an utter flipping disaster.
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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #10 on: June 15, 2016, 11:26 »
    The working conditions have rather been deregulated with the EU. Article 63 of the TFEU states that no restriction to capital movement are allowed, which was the start of the relocation of all our industry overseas to low cost countries implying a huge rise in unemployment here.

    If you have any social conscience, you've got to be anti-EU.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #11 on: June 15, 2016, 11:28 »
    What does that have to do with anything?
    Well, the reasons for why you can't currently may explain why an EU law on Human Rights doesn't necessarily sit comfortably within a British legal framework. Which it doesn't.

    As for your other point, that the people of Britain need protecting from the actions of their democratically elected representatives by a corrupt group of unelected foreigners, it's not surprising that our views diverge.

    As for environmental legislation; that would be the policies that has driven so much of our manufacturing to the Far East by imposing costs and taxes on our own means of production that are not then imposed on imports. So the Chinese etc pollute the flip out of our planet and we not only pay them to do it, we pay unemployment benefit to our own workforce. It's the ultimate in appeasing the hopey-changey brigade while refusing to stand up to major trade competitors.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #12 on: June 15, 2016, 11:38 »
    Well, the reasons for why you can't currently may explain why an EU law on Human Rights doesn't necessarily sit comfortably within a British legal framework. Which it doesn't.

    As for your other point, that the people of Britain need protecting from the actions of their democratically elected representatives by a corrupt group of unelected foreigners, it's not surprising that our views diverge.

    As for environmental legislation; that would be the policies that has driven so much of our manufacturing to the Far East by imposing costs and taxes on our own means of production that are not then imposed on imports. So the Chinese etc pollute the flip out of our planet and we not only pay them to do it, we pay unemployment benefit to our own workforce. It's the ultimate in appeasing the hopey-changey brigade while refusing to stand up to major trade competitors.

    Wait, the simple fact that I can't practice law here explains why it doesn't sit comfortable within the British legal framework? Also in what way is the house of Lords and the First past the post more democratic than the EU?

    Do you believe that the manufacturing will return to the UK once it goes out of the EU? In that case I have some information for you, it is more likely that there will be an increase in the unemployment. Also the fact that you don't want environmental protections is symptomatic of the ideology which currently rules the UK.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #13 on: June 15, 2016, 11:39 »

    Every financial body, 88% of economists, The Treasury, The IMF, most world leaders, all political parties except for the far right, just about every corporation, The City etc. Etc. have said that we would be fools to vote leave.

    The Leave campaign have based everything on so-called 'savings' of c. £10bn in what we pay into the EU and cutting down immigration.

    Frankly everyone with even the smallest idea about economics knows that the 'saving' is almost certainly going to be a huge black hole in the UK economy meaning that their false promises to put that money into the NHS is a disgraceful pee-take.

    Do these august institutions have a good track record of making reliable economic forecasts. Or have they tended to make politically expedient projections to try and persuade people of the value of taking a certain course of action? One that has nothing to do with benefit to individuals within the country concerned.
     
    So that leaves it to the immigrants debate. Who will be the first people to lose out when we have less money in the economy? The very people on low wages who are voting leave. Who will they blame? The immigrants.

    All of this isn't even considering who'll be in power - the hard right of the Conservative party and a stronger Ukip.

    It could be an utter flipping disaster.
    I think immigration is an issue, but my own personal feeling is that the reason it has come to the fore is that it is the only tangible thing to argue about. Everything else is just, you say George Osbourne says life will be worse out of the EU, I say he's full of sh*t; you say the Germans will freeze us out of any trade deals, I say they won't. The only absolute is that we can totally control who comes into our country if we leave; it's the only thing that can get any traction.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #14 on: June 15, 2016, 11:45 »
    Leaving would be utter madness. This isn't about Osborne, just about everyone with an experienced economic viewpoint has stated that our economy will shrink. A smaller economy means less money to go around than there already is.

    With regard to less investment in the UK, it's already started happening, the pound is crashing, a survey in Germany suggested a huge number of companies relocating out of the UK, several financial institutions have already said the same thing (which, don't forget, is 34% of our GDP).

    It's naive in the extreme to think that leaving will do anything but hammer us.

    An analogy.


    I know there are problems with the EU but can anyone properly explain what our plan is if we leave?
    We’ve all been on a night out with that mate who when you are in a club says “it’s sh*t here let’s go somewhere else”. Then when you leave you realise he has no idea where to go and the place you just left won’t let you back in. Without a decent follow up plan a leave vote could see the UK standing in a kebab shop arguing about who’s fault it is.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #15 on: June 15, 2016, 11:49 »
    If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

    Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

    • Governor of the Bank of England
    • International Monetary Fund
    • Institute for Fiscal Studies
    • Confederation of British Industry
    • Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
    • President of the United States of America
    • Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
    • President of China
    • Prime Minister of India
    • Prime Minister of Canada
    • Prime Minister of Australia
    • Prime Minister of Japan
    • Prime Minister of New Zealand
    • The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
    • Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
    • All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
    • Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
    • The Prime Minister of the UK
    • The leader of the Labour Party
    • The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
    • The Leader of the Green Party
    • The Leader of the Scottish National Party
    • The leader of Plaid Cymru
    • Leader of Sinn Fein
    • Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
    • The Secretary General of the TUC
    • Unison
    • National Union of Students
    • National Union of Farmers
    • Stephen Hawking
    • Chief Executive of the NHS
    • 300 of the most prominent international historians
    • Director of Europol
    • David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
    • Former Directors of GCHQ
    • Secretary General of Nato
    • Church of England
    • Church in Scotland
    • Church in Wales
    • Friends of the Earth
    • Greenpeace
    • Director General of the World Trade Organisation
    • WWF
    • World Bank
    • OECD

    Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

    • Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
    • A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
    • That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
    • Leader of UKIP
    • BNP
    • Britain First
    • Donald Trump
    • Keith Chegwin
    • David Icke

    So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.

    And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #16 on: June 15, 2016, 11:50 »
    Do these august institutions have a good track record of making reliable economic forecasts. Or have they tended to make politically expedient projections to try and persuade people of the value of taking a certain course of action? One that has nothing to do with benefit to individuals within the country concerned.
      I think immigration is an issue, but my own personal feeling is that the reason it has come to the fore is that it is the only tangible thing to argue about. Everything else is just, you say George Osbourne says life will be worse out of the EU, I say he's full of sh*t; you say the Germans will freeze us out of any trade deals, I say they won't. The only absolute is that we can totally control who comes into our country if we leave; it's the only thing that can get any traction.

    So basically everyone who is making economic forecasts need to be disregarded? This is the way the leave campaign has been arguing. Basically anything which does not agree with a rosy future for a leaving UK is seen as being politically expedient projections, or project fear, or whatever you want to call it, but everyone is biased and nothing anyone, except for Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage says should be seen as real. flip, if there was a real good economic argument for leaving, if a significant amount of reports or anything would say there was an economic case for leaving, fine I could see why one would say it of the others, but there just isnt'.

    The thing is it has come to the forefront because the leave campaign does not really have any other arguments and are playing on people's fears. And even if the UK leaves the EU, it would not significantly alter the immigration, it would certainly not lead to a situation where there are only tens of thousands of immigrants coming in.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #17 on: June 15, 2016, 11:52 »
    Wait, the simple fact that I can't practice law here explains why it doesn't sit comfortable within the British legal framework? Also in what way is the house of Lords and the First past the post more democratic than the EU?

    No, it is the fact that British Law has an entirely different basis to that practiced on the continent. TBH I've no idea what model the Dutch follow. FPP is more democratic than any other form of election, and we recently had a democratic referendum that decided convincingly that it was so. The House of Lords is about checks and balances, it doesn't make laws, it can't even prevent them. Having a populist 2nd chamber scrutinising the actions of a populist 1st chamber makes absolutely no sense as far as I can see.


    Do you believe that the manufacturing will return to the UK once it goes out of the EU? In that case I have some information for you, it is more likely that there will be an increase in the unemployment. Also the fact that you don't want environmental protections is symptomatic of the ideology which currently rules the UK.

    Maybe, it would depend on the terms and conditions of any trade deals, but there are so many other events that will influence the growth of that sector that it will be hard to measure the impact of leaving or staying in. The EU commision in 2008 did some analysis which put the economic benefit of being in at 2%, probably optimistically, so I would't be surprised if the country went into recession in the short term.

    And I think you misunderstand me, it's not that I don't want environmental protections, it's that I don't want the problems swept under someone else's carpet and have to pay for the privilege.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #18 on: June 15, 2016, 11:54 »
    So basically everyone who is making economic forecasts need to be disregarded? This is the way the leave campaign has been arguing. Basically anything which does not agree with a rosy future for a leaving UK is seen as being politically expedient projections, or project fear, or whatever you want to call it, but everyone is biased and nothing anyone, except for Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage says should be seen as real. flip, if there was a real good economic argument for leaving, if a significant amount of reports or anything would say there was an economic case for leaving, fine I could see why one would say it of the others, but there just isnt'.

    The thing is it has come to the forefront because the leave campaign does not really have any other arguments and are playing on people's fears. And even if the UK leaves the EU, it would not significantly alter the immigration, it would certainly not lead to a situation where there are only tens of thousands of immigrants coming in.

    Well said Barry.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #19 on: June 15, 2016, 11:55 »

    And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.
    Or think of it in another way. If we weren't a member would you vote to be one?
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #20 on: June 15, 2016, 11:57 »
    No, it is the fact that British Law has an entirely different basis to that practiced on the continent. TBH I've no idea what model the Dutch follow. FPP is more democratic than any other form of election, and we recently had a democratic referendum that decided convincingly that it was so. The House of Lords is about checks and balances, it doesn't make laws, it can't even prevent them. Having a populist 2nd chamber scrutinising the actions of a populist 1st chamber makes absolutely no sense as far as I can see.

    Maybe, it would depend on the terms and conditions of any trade deals, but there are so many other events that will influence the growth of that sector that it will be hard to measure the impact of leaving or staying in. The EU commision in 2008 did some analysis which put the economic benefit of being in at 2%, probably optimistically, so I would't be surprised if the country went into recession in the short term.

    And I think you misunderstand me, it's not that I don't want environmental protections, it's that I don't want the problems swept under someone else's carpet and have to pay for the privilege.

    Doesn't it say something to you that as well as The Labour Party and the Trade Unions (who after all are the ones who are there to protect those less fortunate), the head of the NHS says leaving will hit them hard too. That's aside from 88% (not 20%, not 30%, not even 55%) of economists. 88%!

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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #21 on: June 15, 2016, 11:57 »
    Or think of it in another way. If we weren't a member would you vote to be one?

    Yes.

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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #22 on: June 15, 2016, 12:00 »
    No, it is the fact that British Law has an entirely different basis to that practiced on the continent. TBH I've no idea what model the Dutch follow. FPP is more democratic than any other form of election, and we recently had a democratic referendum that decided convincingly that it was so. The House of Lords is about checks and balances, it doesn't make laws, it can't even prevent them. Having a populist 2nd chamber scrutinising the actions of a populist 1st chamber makes absolutely no sense as far as I can see.
    Fine, it ahs a different basis, that does not mean that treaties don't exist.
    The most democratic form of election? Please let me laugh. FPP really is not more democratic than a representative vote, in which votes do not go to waste. Still the EU adopts laws through the governments of the member states (indirectly elected, by the electorate) and the European parliament, directly elected by the electorate.

    Quote

    Maybe, it would depend on the terms and conditions of any trade deals, but there are so many other events that will influence the growth of that sector that it will be hard to measure the impact of leaving or staying in. The EU commision in 2008 did some analysis which put the economic benefit of being in at 2%, probably optimistically, so I would't be surprised if the country went into recession in the short term.

    And I think you misunderstand me, it's not that I don't want environmental protections, it's that I don't want the problems swept under someone else's carpet and have to pay for the privilege.
    Almost every single institution and economist has stated that the economy will be hit. This would clearly mean that there would be higher unemployment.
    So no environmental regulations if other states might benefit economically from it, or won't adopt the same regulations. This basically is the same as no regulations, since this won't happen
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #23 on: June 15, 2016, 12:01 »
    With regard to paying for the privilege of being in Europe...

    We put a nett £8.5bn in.

    The general consensus is that if we leave it will cost us (at current rates) £40bn in decreased income. To my mind saving £8.5bn to lose £40bn is somewhat strange.

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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #24 on: June 15, 2016, 12:03 »
    So basically everyone who is making economic forecasts need to be disregarded? This is the way the leave campaign has been arguing. Basically anything which does not agree with a rosy future for a leaving UK is seen as being politically expedient projections, or project fear, or whatever you want to call it, but everyone is biased and nothing anyone, except for Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage says should be seen as real. flip, if there was a real good economic argument for leaving, if a significant amount of reports or anything would say there was an economic case for leaving, fine I could see why one would say it of the others, but there just isnt'.

    But if all the economic forecasts are based on the same Treasury forecasts, you're not getting lots of economic forcasts, you're getting one incredibly politically skewed one that has been ridiculed by the public as scaremongering and then reworked by various interested parties with unsurprisingly similar results. Unfortunately, whatever you personally believe, it is clear that the Treasury forecasts lack credibility with the vast majority of the public whichever side they're on.

    The thing is it has come to the forefront because the leave campaign does not really have any other arguments and are playing on people's fears. And even if the UK leaves the EU, it would not significantly alter the immigration, it would certainly not lead to a situation where there are only tens of thousands of immigrants coming in.

    How come?
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #25 on: June 15, 2016, 12:05 »
    But if all the economic forecasts are based on the same Treasury forecasts, you're not getting lots of economic forcasts, you're getting one incredibly politically skewed one that has been ridiculed by the public as scaremongering and then reworked by various interested parties with unsurprisingly similar results. Unfortunately, whatever you personally believe, it is clear that the Treasury forecasts lack credibility with the vast majority of the public whichever side they're on.

    How come?

    They aren't all based on the same Treasury forecasts. They are from a multitude of sources.

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  • DJW

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #26 on: June 15, 2016, 12:07 »
    Or think of it in another way. If we weren't a member would you vote to be one?

    The Leave campaign have noticeably tried to suggest that this is the question voters should be asking themselves, when it is quite clearly not and doesn't apply to the reality of what this referendum is about.

    There are many, many communities outside of London who have been decimated by deindustrialisation and the growing wealth of jobs and wealth in the capital over the past 40 years. Large swathes of Labour voters have held quite understandable concerns about the effects of population growth on already strained public services and highly exclusionary jobs and housing markets. I would argue that they have misconstrued (and been forcibly told) that immigrants are the enemies here, or that at best that they will exacerbate an already difficult situation.

    Unfortunately however, this is a result of the complete and utter failure of 13 years of Labour governments to talk about immigration. The rise of the BNP and UKIP were early signs over a decade ago that concerns over immigration were swelling. The current government has exacerbated these problems much further with cuts to vital public services and welfare.

    I am very worried that we will leave and that the political atmosphere in the years after Brexit would be poisonous as even more extreme right politicians take control of the NHS. But ultimately I don't blame those voting for Brexit on the grounds of very real concerns about the pressures on their communities.
  • ReplyReply

  • barrus

    • National Champion
    • Country: 00
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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #27 on: June 15, 2016, 12:10 »
    But if all the economic forecasts are based on the same Treasury forecasts, you're not getting lots of economic forcasts, you're getting one incredibly politically skewed one that has been ridiculed by the public as scaremongering and then reworked by various interested parties with unsurprisingly similar results. Unfortunately, whatever you personally believe, it is clear that the Treasury forecasts lack credibility with the vast majority of the public whichever side they're on.

    How come?

    They are not all based on the treasury report. And the simple fact that all economic forecasts have been regarded as scaremongering, while the notion that 70billion Turks will come and rape UK women isn't (combination of pretty much 2 things Farage said) and the fact that no-one has put forth a report which truly states that the UK will see a economic benefit outside of the EU shows that people had already made up their minds and what the deciding factor in this referendum is.

    How come?
    Just the fact that there are several sectors which are dependent on immigration to remain. One big one is the NHS, especially if they want to grow it like they say (which they won't) they will need more immigration. Next to it, around half of the immigration is from inside the EU, the rest is from outside the EU. If they were so gung-ho on decreasing immigration to the 10s of thousands they would not still have 100s of thousands of non-EU immigration currently.
  • ReplyReply

  • Capt_Cavman

    • Road Captain
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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #28 on: June 15, 2016, 12:11 »
    Doesn't it say something to you that as well as The Labour Party and the Trade Unions (who after all are the ones who are there to protect those less fortunate), the head of the NHS says leaving will hit them hard too. That's aside from 88% (not 20%, not 30%, not even 55%) of economists. 88%!
    92% of economists couldn't find sh*t if was on the end of their nose. As for the Labour Party, you do know which way Corbyn and McDonnell have voted their whole life? And most of the former Labour cabinet are now saying that free movement needs to be scrapped.
  • ReplyReply

  • Capt_Cavman

    • Road Captain
    • Country: jp
    • Posts: 1786
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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #29 on: June 15, 2016, 12:13 »
    The Leave campaign have noticeably tried to suggest that this is the question voters should be asking themselves, when it is quite clearly not and doesn't apply to the reality of what this referendum is about.

    Why not?
  • ReplyReply

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