[barrus]

No, I'm saying that the debate wasn't centred around immigration until the end of May. Individual campaigners like Nigel Farage may have been banging that particular drum earlier but it wasn't central to the national debate - as it became later, to my dismay.

Yes, it is to do with your posts. Wanting to have the ability to deport someone if they were a rapist is not the same as treating everyone as if they were potential rapists. When talking about big intangible ideas like nationhood, sovereignty, national identity and mass migration, how is it possible to avoid talking in terms that don't relate to people on an individual level? Like being a child while your parents are arguing over custody in front of you; there are some things it's better to simply tune out until they're resolved.

I'm sorry but saying, like Farage did that there will be Cologne style sexual assaults if EU immigration isn't stopped, sure as hell is branding EU immigrants as rapists. If you can't see that, like I said earlier you are willfully blind

Also you are basically saying that becauset he ideas that are debated are too big it's better to dumb it down and make it so peoplec an understand? Well the leave campaign did that by appealing to the base instincts of people

[stereojet]

I find that very surprising. Academia is about as right-on liberal/left as it's possible to be in this country, apart from the BBC of course. Racist and misogynistic abuse is probably the only sackable offence. While gross incompetence, fraud and lack of ability are not only accepted but often rewarded.

Sorry, I should have pointed out that the abuse was online, not at work. She has professional profiles on social media that have attracted the abuse

[Capt_Cavman]

I'm sorry but saying, like Farage did that there will be Cologne style sexual assaults if EU immigration isn't stopped, sure as hell is branding EU immigrants as rapists. If you can't see that, like I said earlier you are willfully blind

Also you are basically saying that becauset he ideas that are debated are too big it's better to dumb it down and make it so peoplec an understand? Well the leave campaign did that by appealing to the base instincts of people

And Farage said that on June 5th. What is it about the words End of May that you don't understand?

No, I'm saying what I said.

[Joelsim]

And Farage said that on June 5th. What is it about the words End of May that you don't understand?

No, I'm saying what I said.

It's been xenophobic from the very start. Racist if you will Capt. No point in disagreeing with that as it's common knowledge.

[barrus]

And Farage said that on June 5th. What is it about the words End of May that you don't understand?

No, I'm saying what I said.

Who flipping cares when he said that, the fact that. The flipping fact that he said that is enough. I'm saying that because you said it was not the same as calling immigrants rapists. As well as stating that remain had started the 'criticism=xenophobia/racism, you know why, because leave has campaigned racist and xenophobic.
 I'm done, I'm done debating with you. You just don't want to see the xenophobia, even if it's only been since the end of may (it hasn't) that in itself is bad enough, the flipping last month of a campaign almost only xenophobia and racism and you don't see an issue with that?

[barrus]

Since today is the day, everyone go out and vote. Don't care which way you'll vote, but at least vote. Hope people make an informed decision and vote rationally. While, like I said, I never liked the inclusion of the UK in the EU, due to the special rules for the UK, it would be a shame for the UK to leave his grand European project and distance themselves further from the rest of Europe


And to make things a bit lighter, Germany is willing to make some concessions if you lot stay:
They'll acknowledge the goal in 66 and some other things

http://home.bt.com/news/odd-news/they-think-its-all-over-bild-in-geoff-hurst-goal-offer-ahead-of-eu-vote-11364069450041

[Capt_Cavman]

As a point of information, here is the transcript of the Farage 'Cologne' speech.

'What we saw outside that train station in Cologne on New Year's Eve was truly and genuinely shocking.
'I am not saying that we are not immune from such problems in this country.
'But to me, if you allow the unlimited access of huge numbers of young males into the European continent who come from countries where women are at best are second class citizens, don't be surprised if scenes that we saw in Cologne don't happen more often.
'For goodness sake, do we want those young men within five years to have EU passports and to be able to come to our country and to reverse a hundred years of female liberation and to change our entire way of life? Surely the answer must be no.
'It is the job of the British Government to make our own laws, to control our own borders and its about time we started putting the interests of our own people first.'

[Joelsim]

As a point of information, here is the transcript of the Farage 'Cologne' speech.

'What we saw outside that train station in Cologne on New Year's Eve was truly and genuinely shocking.
'I am not saying that we are not immune from such problems in this country.
'But to me, if you allow the unlimited access of huge numbers of young males into the European continent who come from countries where women are at best are second class citizens, don't be surprised if scenes that we saw in Cologne don't happen more often.
'For goodness sake, do we want those young men within five years to have EU passports and to be able to come to our country and to reverse a hundred years of female liberation and to change our entire way of life? Surely the answer must be no.
'It is the job of the British Government to make our own laws, to control our own borders and its about time we started putting the interests of our own people first.'

You're missing the point. The whole campaign has been based on keeping Johnny Foreigner out, they aren't welcome.

[Slow Rider]

Who flipping cares when he said that, the fact that. The flipping fact that he said that is enough. I'm saying that because you said it was not the same as calling immigrants rapists. As well as stating that remain had started the 'criticism=xenophobia/racism, you know why, because leave has campaigned racist and xenophobic.
 I'm done, I'm done debating with you. You just don't want to see the xenophobia, even if it's only been since the end of may (it hasn't) that in itself is bad enough, the flipping last month of a campaign almost only xenophobia and racism and you don't see an issue with that?

I think what the point is, is that just because the arguments most commonly used in the media are wrong (i.e. immigration), doesn't mean the idea of a Brexit is wrong. Yes there have been a lot of xenophobic immigration-related comments by the Leave camp, but at least partly they have been driven into that direction by the Remain camp equating a vote for Leave with a vote for rascism and xenophobia.

Of course, Farage is an idiot who's playing in to the basest of human instincts and spreads hatred - or at the very least thrives on existing hatred. But there is a very valid case to be made for a Brexit without being xenophobic, as Cavman has been doing here. In fact, the only ones who keep bringing this thread back to the issues of race and xenophobia are you and Joel. Which is partly what happened in the media debate as well: by agitating so strongly against perceived xenophobia by the Leave camp, the Remain camp have actually played a very large part in making that the central issue of this discussion.

However, tone of the discussion notwithstanding, one question remains very important: How would a Brexit actually improve Britain's options regarding immigration? If they want to remain part of the free market of Europe, don't they still need to be part of the agreements regarding free movement of people and capital? As far as I know, that is a hard demand of the EU for any free trade deal.

And that is the issue I have with the leave camp: there is no plan. Their answer to every question on how to proceed is 'we will make a deal with the EU'. But looking at other countries that have made a deal with the EU, they pay significant amounts of money for access to the common market (negating most of the savings from a Brexit), they still have to abide by the vast majority of the rules the EU sets on products and economic policies, and are still part of the agreements for free movement of capital and people. The main difference being that they have to follow those rules without having a say in them, as they are no EU member. And yes, there is some extra freedom for Britain to make their own regulations, but nowhere near the amount the Leave camp would like to make everyone believe.

So much depends on what is negotiated with the EU in case of a Brexit. Leave makes it sound like Britain holds all the cards and will get all the benefits without any of the costs in a deal. Which is an illusion. In practice, the EU will make demands on Britain that will significantly reduce the benefits of a Brexit - if there are any to begin with. Should Britain leave, voters will be very disappointed at the lack of change that occurs because of it.

[Joelsim]

Latest odds at Paddy Power.

Remain 1/7
Exit 5/1

[Joelsim]

However, tone of the discussion notwithstanding, one question remains very important: How would a Brexit actually improve Britain's options regarding immigration? If they want to remain part of the free market of Europe, don't they still need to be part of the agreements regarding free movement of people and capital? As far as I know, that is a hard demand of the EU for any free trade deal.

And that is the issue I have with the leave camp: there is no plan. Their answer to every question on how to proceed is 'we will make a deal with the EU'. But looking at other countries that have made a deal with the EU, they pay significant amounts of money for access to the common market (negating most of the savings from a Brexit), they still have to abide by the vast majority of the rules the EU sets on products and economic policies, and are still part of the agreements for free movement of capital and people. The main difference being that they have to follow those rules without having a say in them, as they are no EU member. And yes, there is some extra freedom for Britain to make their own regulations, but nowhere near the amount the Leave camp would like to make everyone believe.

So much depends on what is negotiated with the EU in case of a Brexit. Leave makes it sound like Britain holds all the cards and will get all the benefits without any of the costs in a deal. Which is an illusion. In practice, the EU will make demands on Britain that will significantly reduce the benefits of a Brexit - if there are any to begin with. Should Britain leave, voters will be very disappointed at the lack of change that occurs because of it.

Exactly.

None of the benefits that are being preached, and a sunken economy to boot.

That's why the whole Brexit campaign has been an appalling lie, a total and utter disgrace.

[Capt_Cavman]

... Should Britain leave, voters will be very disappointed at the lack of change that occurs because of it.

I totally agree with you. But I also think that conversely, should we remain, voters will be very disappointed with the change that does occur because of it.

There's an article in the Telegraph by the brilliantly named Harry de Quetteville that pretty much echoes your point of view.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/this-eu-referendum-is-not-the-end-it-is-not-even-the-beginning-o/

If you take a look, his article on 'Cyclists are stupid and thoughtless. And I'm a cyclist.' is worth a read, as is the one about the plane hijack selfie taker.

[Francois the Postman]

Well, after the last referendum up here in Scotland, "I" lost, but counldn't feel happier and more proud about the political process the country had just gone through. With genuine street-level engagement in a way I had never experienced, almost bypassing media (which wasn't showing its best face even then but looked stellar compared to the tripe that is being spewed out this time)

After the vote, folk were talking about a new political era, a new atmosphere, a renewed relevance, an example for the world. Scotland felt a stronger place because of it.

A discussion with the usual suspects, but also with very young voters and folk who had completely switched off to politics, pensioners who were casting their first vote ever... all making up their minds on a simple question with huge consequences... it was inspirational to witness and be part of.

On the whole, everyone I talked to afterwards was proud of what just happened, yes and no alike. Exceptions to that for sure, but atypical. It renewed my belief in people's ability to connect even across the divide, even with (media) misinformation and political/ecomomic fear/hope-mongering, and the worst the internet has to offer being part of the discussion too. They were sidelined by the people. Our country, in it together, all of us, talking. Engaging. It was very personal, people were split all over the place, but connecting on streets, places of work, and households.

This referendum on the other hand, from both sides, even if "I" win tomorrow... I can't wait for it to be over, as I haven't been through a more depressing political (discussion) period than this one.

As someone more eloquent than me said: "if you pump in enough poison, someone will get sick". This EU referendum has been one colossal bug that we won't shake quickly (either way), and one MP lost her life to boot (and by the sound of it exactly the type of MP you can only hope for - listening, caring, serving, helping). Even if that tragedy had not taken place, I am not sure what 'all this' says about our capacity to be a democracy. About us as a people on this Island. Or about an awful lot of the UK press/media, which are downright toxic. Looking like a newspaper doesn't always mean it has even bothered to look up the definition of journalism in a dictionary. But we knew that.

I actually feel there is more at stake with this vote than the previous one, but having tasted both Referendum campaigns from up here in Scotland, the difference between the two is stark. The campaigns from both sides couldn't have been more depressing if they tried. It has also seems to have been more through media this time (up here anyway) than on people level.

Right now, I could not be further away from those feelings of pride and inspiration. I fear this is leaving scars and divisions that will not be quick to heal. We have seen and heard our neighbours (again). Some things are (too) hard to unsee.

For this island it has been sad sad sad days. And more of that to follow -in or out- no doubt.

[Ram]

As for environmental legislation; that would be the policies that has driven so much of our manufacturing to the Far East by imposing costs and taxes on our own means of production that are not then imposed on imports. So the Chinese etc pollute the flip out of our planet and we not only pay them to do it, we pay unemployment benefit to our own workforce. It's the ultimate in appeasing the hopey-changey brigade while refusing to stand up to major trade competitors.

Quick question regarding this. Even without the eu legislation, do you really think this is possible? Steel being an extreme example of one country's destructive hegemony on production. I know that it's hurt the UK but don't know the extent. Over here the selling price of steel is less than its marginal cost due to dumping.

I can understand that it may be a step. However, there is a leap, particularly in labour costs.

[Capt_Cavman]

Quick question regarding this. Even without the eu legislation, do you really think this is possible? Steel being an extreme example of one country's destructive hegemony on production. I know that it's hurt the UK but don't know the extent. Over here the selling price of steel is less than its marginal cost due to dumping.

I can understand that it may be a step. However, there is a leap, particularly in labour costs.

I can't see why we can't apply the same emissions regulations to any heavy industry importer in the world. Obviously, it's difficult for small scale production but a 20 sq mile steel plant? I think so.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945

The industry is clear what it needs: lower business rates, a relaxation of carbon emissions targets for heavy manufacturers, more compensation for high energy prices, and a commitment that British steel is used in major construction projects.


But why relax emissions targets? why not just apply them globally?


I think the dumping has killed off the steel industry here, certainly in terms of standard bulk production. We had already moved into niche markets (like superguns!) to a large extent. Tata Steel bought up the rump of Corus in 2006, so the timing wasn't great, and is now disposing of it; one of the reasons it is claimed, is the Govt's refusal to back EU anti-dumping measures. There are other issues like high energy prices and business rates that deter capital investment but the reality is that we can't compete on price even without the dumping and we've been leading to this point for a long while.

However, even if we aren't producing steel, there's still no reason we can't keep the lighter 'finishing' industries.

[Ram]

But through what mechanism can it be implemented worldwide? And that is ignoring the go to per capita emissions argument.

Steel was an extreme example, and a unique one. Used it just to bring across the point. The less said about Tata steel's last few years, the better.

Anyway, leave wins. Albeit a clear split evident. Now to wait which other country catches the leave bug.

[barrus]

https://twitter.com/immmy/status/746225124316061696


And from the guardian:

Note this morning’s warning from Sinn Fein that the British government has “forfeited any mandate to represent the economic and political interests of people in Northern Ireland.”

[Capt_Cavman]

But through what mechanism can it be implemented worldwide? And that is ignoring the go to per capita emissions argument.

Steel was an extreme example, and a unique one. Used it just to bring across the point. The less said about Tata steel's last few years, the better.

Anyway, leave wins. Albeit a clear split evident. Now to wait which other country catches the leave bug.

You set the same standards of emissions control and working conditions that you enforce locally, and block or tax importers who don't comply.

I haven't actually thought this all the way through as you may have noticed, but there needs to be a mechanism that means that competitive advantage comes through: cheaper labour, cheaper land, cheaper energy, cheaper routes to market, cheaper heavy machinery, etc; and not through treating workers like slaves and polluting the crap out of the planet.

[barrus]

Well, England isn't the only one who doesn't want to be a part of a bigger union

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0624/797805-brexit-ni/

Break up UK, since you don't want bigger unions, just keep getting smaller

[stereojet]

Oh sh*t. That's all I can say. Oh sh*t.

[Capt_Cavman]

Well, England isn't the only one who doesn't want to be a part of a bigger union

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0624/797805-brexit-ni/

Break up UK, since you don't want bigger unions, just keep getting smaller

If you look at a map of how N. Ireland voted, it's pretty much on sectarian grounds, contrary to what the nice man from Sinn Fein would have you believe. If N.Ireland leaves the United Kingdom and join the rest of Ireland, it's because there are enough Catholics to make it happen, the EU vote doesn't affect it much as far as I can see. But others on here will have greater local insight.

Out of interest does anyone know why there hasn't already been a move for an Ulster referendum? In my wild and misspent youth, I went out with a young lady from County Down; and her father, who was a local politician, swore blind that the Catholics would hold the upper hand numerically and politically by the millennium. It doesn't seem to have happened for some reason.

[Joelsim]

Having been on several forums this morning, it's absolutely clear that the old and the uneducated have made a decision that defies belief and that will bring great harm to themselves and everyone else. And not just those in the UK. The Spanish and other economies have also fallen off a cliff.

Because of this I would like to apologise on behalf of the UK to anyone we have/will hurt.

I feel totally and utterly empty today.

[Echoes]

I'm glad I'm banned from CN.

It just makes me sick to see a vegan like BigMac supporting the EU.

I mean the EU has supported the return of animal flour : http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2013/02/15/bruxelles-autorise-le-retour-des-farines-animales_1833351_3244.html

Besides, the TTIP that the EU are currently negotiating is likely to bring on our plates beefs fed with GMO's and growth hormones from the US.

Voting "Remain" means voting TTIP. I guess the Remain voters are aware of that fact. I have a clear conscience, I was for Brexit and campaign for Belxit.

But really most vegans are hypocrites. Some are consistent but it's like flying fish, not the majority of the kind.

I recently stumbled on an article of Het Belang van Limburg about fruit growers who could no longer stand the EU sanctions against Russia. The "Remain" voters have voted against these poor people. I hope they are aware of that fact.



There's a lot I don't like about the UK but yesterday I would have been proud to be British, sincerely. 

[Havetts]

https://twitter.com/kidd_kong78/status/746215781994618881


And the backtracking has already started.

[Havetts]

Oh and surprise surprise Greetje Wilders is screaming for a Dutch referendum already.. #MakeNederlandGeertAgain!!

[Echoes]

So far Wilders has never had the balls to clearly state he wanted to leave. He just said he wanted to renegotiate the treaties, which is a red herring because the treaties cannot be renegotiated. I do not trust Wilders at all. It's just like Le Pen. Those people are very good at shouting against the EU in order to look sympathetic (because EU is a fail) but they are not really convincing.

Besides they are pro-NATO, just like Farage.

[Havetts]

https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/746106721756680192

[Havetts]

[Havetts]

[Archieboy]

this unfortunatley does not say that us oldies have already had 40 years of EU membership.
just pointing out what those tables dont tell you.