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Poll

Will the UK leave the EU or not?

Yes and they should
4 (16.7%)
Yes, but they shouldn't
7 (29.2%)
No, but they should
1 (4.2%)
No and they shouldn't
8 (33.3%)
What referendum?
4 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24


Echoes

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Re: UK Ref
« Reply #240 on: July 04, 2016, 12:40 »
It was about time you bring up the conspiracy theory accusation. I'm collecting them...
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    Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #241 on: July 04, 2016, 12:42 »
    It was about time you bring up the conspiracy theory accusation. I'm collecting them...

    You've just spouted one Echoes.  :lol
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  • cj2002

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #242 on: July 04, 2016, 12:47 »
    The Tory party was Remainist, so obviously, they were actually all Remainers in disguise.

    Well actually, no. The government position was for Remain, and this was a position supported by the Labour Party, LibDem Party and Scottish Nationalist Party[1]. The Conservative Party has been divided on the issue since time immemorial.

    David Cameron and George Osborne, in the tradition of Thatcher, are - I believe - genuinely pro-EU. As is former-PM Sir John Major.

    However, there were plenty of members of Government whose personal beliefs differ from their leadership. PM-in-waiting Theresa May is one example - she generally sits on the right wing of the party, and is thought to favour Leaving[2]. Likewise, Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond is a long-standing Euro-sceptic.

    The divisions in the party are real and have always been there. Don't let the obvious (and now spectacularly backfiring) posturing of Johnson and Gove make you think that all Tories are pro-EU.

    Similarly - or, in fact, in total contrast - while the Labour Party has in recent years been pro-EU, its leader is one of the old guard left wing of the party who have never wanted to be in the EU, and campaigned to leave in 1975.

    --

    The Article 50 question is altogether more complicated. Suffice to say that whoever invokes it will, in doing so, effectively end their own political careers, such will be the fallout. And, thus, with every passing day it becomes less and less likely. Remember, Cameron, during the campaign, promised to invoke it straight away in the event of a Leave vote - he didn't.

    The UK is in no position to negotiate anything at the moment - I don't mean in terms of political stability or capital or having friends in Brussels, Paris or Berlin, though this is important. I also don't mean in terms of having a clear plan of what we want to achieve from the negotiations - although this, too, is crucial. I mean, quite simply, that we don't have anybody qualified, experienced or talented enough to actually conduct such significant negotiations under such immense time pressures.

    Who knows, maybe we'll hire some negotiators from the EU.
     1. I can't remember, off hand, the position of the Welsh or Northern Irish parties
     2. This is probably why she actually has a shot at becoming party leader, while Osborne and Boris don't
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    Joelsim

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    Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #244 on: July 05, 2016, 11:40 »
    Well actually, no. The government position was for Remain, and this was a position supported by the Labour Party, LibDem Party and Scottish Nationalist Party[1]. The Conservative Party has been divided on the issue since time immemorial.

    David Cameron and George Osborne, in the tradition of Thatcher, are - I believe - genuinely pro-EU. As is former-PM Sir John Major.

    However, there were plenty of members of Government whose personal beliefs differ from their leadership. PM-in-waiting Theresa May is one example - she generally sits on the right wing of the party, and is thought to favour Leaving[2]. Likewise, Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond is a long-standing Euro-sceptic.

    The divisions in the party are real and have always been there. Don't let the obvious (and now spectacularly backfiring) posturing of Johnson and Gove make you think that all Tories are pro-EU.

    Similarly - or, in fact, in total contrast - while the Labour Party has in recent years been pro-EU, its leader is one of the old guard left wing of the party who have never wanted to be in the EU, and campaigned to leave in 1975.
     1. I can't remember, off hand, the position of the Welsh or Northern Irish parties
     2. This is probably why she actually has a shot at becoming party leader, while Osborne and Boris don't

    Thanks CJ for being respectful in your contradiction (changes from other posters) and thanks for information.

    I'm aware of the apparent divisions within the Tory party and am also aware of Corbyn's turncoat since 1975.

    My objection though is why do these people stay in the Tory party if they have had such a disagreement with all the leaders of it since Britain has joined in (for Thatcher was a Europeist, you said it but some argued otherwise). Why didn't they defect to Ukip. After all it's such a core issue and they should have put their ideas in agreement with facts. In France several politicians have left the Socialist party or the Republican Party because they were sovereigntists with respect to the EU (but not even campaigning to leave it all out, just wishing to renegotiate the treaties.

    With regards to negotiation it would surprise me that such a major country with a long history does not have one good negotiator to seal an agreement with other EU members. Economically-wise the UK is definitely in a position to negotiate. Several other EU members have a trade surplus with the UK, like France (due to low oil price that France imports from Scotland), so they have a lot to lose if they cannot find an agreement with the UK. Besides, the pound devaluation increases British competitivit since they export more easily.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #245 on: July 05, 2016, 11:45 »
    The estimate is we need 500 negotiators Echoes, not one.

    We have about 25 and New Zealand are going to lend us a few too, so probably only about 450 more needed.

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  • cj2002

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #246 on: July 05, 2016, 12:12 »
    My objection though is why do these people stay in the Tory party if they have had such a disagreement with all the leaders of it since Britain has joined in (for Thatcher was a Europeist, you said it but some argued otherwise). Why didn't they defect to Ukip.

    I think the trilogy of golden rules of politics can answer your question.

    1) Serve yourself above all others
    2) Then, serve those who allow (i.e. fund) your ability to meet rule 1.
    3) Then, and only then, serve others. Starting with those most likely to meet rule 2.

    Tory MPs like being Tory MPs. They like being in Government. They like that they have the chance to move up the greasy pole of ministerial politics.

    Sure, Douglas Carswell won his by-election, but his constituency has a demographic make-up unlike most of the UK. Eurosceptic Tory MPs in safe Tory seats would gain nothing and lose everything by defecting. The Tories would just put up another candidate, and the automatons in the voting booth would tick the box with the picture of the pretty tree. Whatever might be inferred from polls and European elections (and, indeed, this referendum), there just isn't the sort of groundswell of support that would make UKIP a viable Westminster party.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #247 on: July 05, 2016, 13:19 »
    David Cameron and George Osborne, in the tradition of Thatcher, are - I believe - genuinely pro-EU. As is former-PM Sir John Major. ...

    The rest of your post is, as ever, well-written and insightful, but...

    The tradition of Thatcher and her government was to attempt to shape the EU as she wanted it. Given that Thatcher's downfall was engineered by Europhiles: Geoffrey Howe and Michael Heseltine, because of Thatcher's reluctance to join the ERM, it is a stretch to say that she was pro-EU in 1980s terms let alone in today's terms. The three subsequent PMs (Major, Blair, Brown) all signed over significant power to the EU without any mandate from the British people and Cameron promised, and failed to deliver, a referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon. So where we are now bears no relation to the situation she was trying to manage, and I believe her view in recent times was that it is no longer in Britain's best interest to remain.

    I agree with your assessment of UKIP as a Westminster party but I think its ability to shift the Conservative party rightwards shouldn't be underestimated. The Conservatives are essentially a large right of centre coalition who's sole strategy is to gain power by defeating Labour. As for Labour, it looks as if the massive coalition of entirely disparate classes and cultures that Blair once commanded is in the process of fragmentation; How it re-combines will shape what sort of Conservative Party is required to defeat it. In other words, the less credible a future Labour Government is, the more Conservative MPs will stray from central control. They won't need to join UKIP to be in a brexit party, they'll be in a brexit party within a party.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #248 on: July 05, 2016, 13:22 »



    I agree with your assessment of UKIP as a Westminster party but I think its ability to shift the Conservative party rightwards shouldn't be underestimated. The Conservatives are essentially a large right of centre coalition who's sole strategy is to gain power by defeating Labour. As for Labour, it looks as if the massive coalition of entirely disparate classes and cultures that Blair once commanded is in the process of fragmentation; How it re-combines will shape what sort of Conservative Party is required to defeat it. In other words, the less credible a future Labour Government is, the more Conservative MPs will stray from central control.

    Yep.

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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #249 on: July 05, 2016, 13:53 »
    Maggie Thatcher signed up the Single European Act which paved the way for the Freedom of Capital Movement implemented after Maastricht.
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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #250 on: July 05, 2016, 14:00 »
    By the way, already since 2008 the EU Commission planned to lift ban on US chlorine chickens, against the will of the member states. That is certainly gonna come with the TTIP.

    http://www.euractiv.com/section/health-consumers/news/outrage-at-plans-to-lift-chlorine-chicken-ban/

    How can a vegetarian like me approve of this. And even if I were not these people are a threat to public health.   
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #251 on: July 05, 2016, 14:30 »
    Maggie Thatcher signed up the Single European Act which paved the way for the Freedom of Capital Movement implemented after Maastricht.
    True, but that was to pave the way for a Single European Market. I guess she thought she could put the lid back on Pandora's box.

    If you read her speech at Bruges in 1988, it is like a template for the Leave campaign.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3562258/Full-text-of-Margaret-Thatchers-speech-to-the-College-of-Europe-The-Bruges-Speech.html
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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #252 on: July 06, 2016, 07:43 »
    Had a quick read but she did legitimize the European Community in it (as a means to achieve prosperity). But more importantly acts matter more than words. A lot of states(wo)men have spoken up against the EU without ever acting against it.


    By the way, what would Europeists say about Jean-Claude Juncker's will to impose the EU-Canada free-trade agreement WITHOUT passing b the national parliaments? Of course, ultimately the Parliaments will have to vote and obviously will. It does not change a lot for me because in my opinion this agreement should never pass, even by a referendum but the idea that Mr Juncker wished to impose it upon us in a dictatorial way speaks volume about the EU Commission's methods and I guess none of you would accept these methods if you were honest with yourselves but Europe is such an ideology that you seem all to be blinded.  :(
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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #253 on: July 07, 2016, 08:22 »
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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #254 on: July 07, 2016, 11:37 »
    Another positive thing about the Brexit, though it's a minor detail is that now English should no longer be an official language in the European Union because only the UK nominated it (Ireland nominated Gaelic). So that means that the influence of the English language will be less prevalent here in Brussels. Hopefully there will no longer be any announcement in English in public transports but only in French and Dutch. That really bothered me. English is not an official language here and many announcements in Brussels are strictly written in English. Being fluent in English, it's of course not a problem for me but for many Brusselers who only speak French or Dutch or even the Brussels dialect, they would feel like a foreigner in their own town. I recently saw a debate on the local TV channel and even some left-wing regional MP's realised that that was a problem.

    I feel like the omnipresence of the English language in my city is way more of a hreat to my identity than immigration. After all most migrants I know do speak French or even Dutch. 
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #255 on: July 07, 2016, 11:51 »
    Another positive thing about the Brexit, though it's a minor detail is that now English should no longer be an official language in the European Union because only the UK nominated it (Ireland nominated Gaelic). So that means that the influence of the English language will be less prevalent here in Brussels. Hopefully there will no longer be any announcement in English in public transports but only in French and Dutch. That really bothered me. English is not an official language here and many announcements in Brussels are strictly written in English. Being fluent in English, it's of course not a problem for me but for many Brusselers who only speak French or Dutch or even the Brussels dialect, they would feel like a foreigner in their own town. I recently saw a debate on the local TV channel and even some left-wing regional MP's realised that that was a problem.

    I feel like the omnipresence of the English language in my city is way more of a hreat to my identity than immigration. After all most migrants I know do speak French or even Dutch.

    You've finally found a positive about Brexit.

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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #256 on: July 08, 2016, 07:58 »
    The Walloon Parliament and the Parliament of the Brussels Region voted against the EU-Canada free trade agreement. The Flemish government is of course in favour of it since it "creates export jobs". Very soon the corrupt Euro Parliament and parliaments of all 28 member states will probably give a green light to it. First step towards the TTIP.

    (From today's De Tijd)

    Vayerism, do you agree on that agreement and still consider yourself a socialist?
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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #257 on: July 22, 2016, 11:36 »
    An article in Today's Gazet van Antwerpen:



    So the Flemings are keen to keep the CETA with Canada but inside the article they talk about fears that it would impair the European environmental and social rules. It's good for shareholders and multinationals but bad for farmers, consumers, workers, retired people, women, younsters, small businesses, etc.

    CETA is a testcase for the TTIP. A huge demonstration is planned on Sep 20 in he Euro area in Brussels against the two new trade agreements.

    The CETA-Treaty would scrap 92% of currently existing import tariffs. The Minister-President of the Flemish Region sas it would boost Flemish apple and pear grower's production. The hypocrite does not say that the EU sanctions against Russia bleeds Flemish fruit production.


    I'm still baffled that UK Remain voters who have some sort of social orientation can approve of this because by their act they did it. Remember that the TTIP does not just concern tariff barriers (after all most have already been scrapped) but also non-tariff barriers, which means health barriers: products that we reject because they are unhealthy. We might get hormone-based beef on our plates very soon.

    How the hell can you approve of that? It's beyond me.
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  • Archieboy

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #258 on: November 03, 2016, 12:07 »
    3/11/ 2016. The day democracy ended in the UK.

    Don't agree with the referendum result appeal to the high court and get your own way totally ignoring the majority of voters, unbelievable decision.

    Sits back waiting for an invite to Joel's party  :angry
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  • Servais Knavendish

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #259 on: November 03, 2016, 12:28 »
    I guess we will all see this one way or the other - but I think it is fantastic that the extremist hawks will have to account for their (lack of) Brexit plans to the elected chamber.  A chance for many of the lies of the Brexiteers campaign that hoodwinked a tiny majority of the public to be fully exposed...

    As I say we are all a bit partial one way or t'other   :P


    ... & dont get me started on why in post Brexit Britain, after a nearly 100 years of not wearing them it is an essential unalienable right for our national football team to wear a poppy... this argument didnt happen in post war 40's Britain, in the world cup winning 60's, 70's... etc etc   :shh
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  • DJW

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #260 on: November 03, 2016, 12:29 »
    That's a fairly partisan view of a court ruling which reasserts the rights of parliament over that of the government.

    Given that the referendum was non-binding, from a legal perspective the will to leave the EU is currently coming only from the government.

    On a whole range of issues, asserting the right of government (or a monarch, or any head of state) to make policy without parliament is highly undemocratic and dangerous.

    This was a law brought in 400 years ago to reduce James I's power as an absolute monarch, and is central to the function of British democracy.

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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #261 on: November 03, 2016, 12:47 »
    From a legal perspective, the will to leave the EU is only coming from the majority of the British people ...

    The day MP's are faithfully representing the people, just wake me up.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #262 on: November 03, 2016, 14:57 »
    That's a fairly partisan view of a court ruling which reasserts the rights of parliament over that of the government.

    Given that the referendum was non-binding, from a legal perspective the will to leave the EU is currently coming only from the government.

    On a whole range of issues, asserting the right of government (or a monarch, or any head of state) to make policy without parliament is highly undemocratic and dangerous.

    This was a law brought in 400 years ago to reduce James I's power as an absolute monarch, and is central to the function of British democracy.

    an ingenious defence of a move to maintain the situation where the rights of Parliament to make policy are overridden by an external body and its continued attempts to grab more power.
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  • DJW

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #263 on: November 03, 2016, 15:57 »
    So, let's get this straight.

    Leave voters wanted to return power to British courts and British parliament.

    But now that those institutions are exercising the powers of sovereignty which they are given by British law...

    They don't like it.

    What you seem to be asking for is governmental sovereignty over and above parliament and the courts, in effect the right for governments to make and define law.

    That would be downright dangerous for all manner of reasons and ensure that there is absolutely no accountability on an already secretive process.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #264 on: November 03, 2016, 16:45 »
    So, let's get this straight.

    Leave voters wanted to return power to British courts and British parliament.

    But now that those institutions are exercising the powers of sovereignty which they are given by British law...

    They don't like it.

    What you seem to be asking for is governmental sovereignty over and above parliament and the courts, in effect the right for governments to make and define law.

    That would be downright dangerous for all manner of reasons and ensure that there is absolutely no accountability on an already secretive process.
    Brexit or no Brexit, what the UK needs is a written constitution.
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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #265 on: November 03, 2016, 16:50 »
    no matter what... it will be a titanic success I heard :D
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    Mellow Velo

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #266 on: November 03, 2016, 17:25 »
    Brexit or no Brexit, what the UK needs is a written constitution.

     These days it would have to be in 140 characters or less. ;)

     
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