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Poll

Will the UK leave the EU or not?

Yes and they should
4 (16.7%)
Yes, but they shouldn't
7 (29.2%)
No, but they should
1 (4.2%)
No and they shouldn't
8 (33.3%)
What referendum?
4 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24


Joelsim

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Re: UK Ref
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2016, 12:16 »
The Leave campaign have noticeably tried to suggest that this is the question voters should be asking themselves, when it is quite clearly not and doesn't apply to the reality of what this referendum is about.

There are many, many communities outside of London who have been decimated by deindustrialisation and the growing wealth of jobs and wealth in the capital over the past 40 years. Large swathes of Labour voters have held quite understandable concerns about the effects of population growth on already strained public services and highly exclusionary jobs and housing markets. I would argue that they have misconstrued (and been forcibly told) that immigrants are the enemies here, or that at best that they will exacerbate an already difficult situation.

Unfortunately however, this is a result of the complete and utter failure of 13 years of Labour governments to talk about immigration. The rise of the BNP and UKIP were early signs over a decade ago that concerns over immigration were swelling. The current government has exacerbated these problems much further with cuts to vital public services and welfare.

I am very worried that we will leave and that the political atmosphere in the years after Brexit would be poisonous as even more extreme right politicians take control of the NHS. But ultimately I don't blame those voting for Brexit on the grounds of very real concerns about the pressures on their communities.

I agree with most of this, and am not a Tory voter, but the whole world has had to pull in its spending since 2008.



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  • DJW

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #31 on: June 15, 2016, 12:18 »
    Why not?

    Because there is a quite obvious difference between voting to support the status quo and voting to change it.

    If we had never joined the EU then we would likely have trade deals with all of the countries we wanted to trade with and so there would be no uncertainty about what would happen outside of the EU. Voting to join would also not create as much political instability and there would be little chance of a change of PM.

    As it happens, voting to leave is guaranteed to create uncertainty for the next 5-10 years at least. It would also give the impetus for a change of PM and a further shift to the right in UK politics.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #32 on: June 15, 2016, 12:23 »
    Another factor in my book aside from the economic suicide, is what is happening in the US at the moment.

    We need to be part of the EU, and distance ourselves further from reliance on what could be absolutely horrendous for the whole world.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #33 on: June 15, 2016, 12:27 »
    Lets just say that as an EU immigrant in the UK this does not instill me with confidence to stay here. Here I was finally in peace with the referendum and thinking there was no way leave would win. Now leave has done it and  gone full racist/xenophobic and they are shown in the lead in almost all polls  :( Luckily I had already send out a few job applications to other places in Europe and I'll continue to do so, just so I might leave soon after the referendum. I know that I won't be kicked out or anything, but the simple fact that most of the leave voters are doing so because they don't want EU citizens in the UK does not really instill a sense of wanting to stay here. Sure, I know it's focused on eastern europeans and lower skilled workers and the absurd notion that Turkey will join the EU and they'll all move to the UK, every single one of them. Still it really does not make me want to stay here. It really instills in me a feeling of wanting to go back to Europe, the real Europe, since the UK, especially England see themselves as completely separate from the rest of Europe. A large part of me wants them to just vote out so they can sod off to their little island and the same parts hopes that the EU is as vicious as possible in the negotiations and that this might lead to a faster more comprehensive unification of the rest of Europe (yes, I know that last part is a pipedream, but I sincerely wish it to be the case). Right now already you can see the markets and see that things will not go well for the UK and they'll only have themselves to blame and the way this referendum is playing out I really can't be too bothered by seeing this islands economy be tanked. This debate really makes me pretty much dislike the UK and really can't see them as anything other than little Englanders who should just rot on their island
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #34 on: June 15, 2016, 12:32 »
    They are not all based on the treasury report. And the simple fact that all economic forecasts have been regarded as scaremongering, while the notion that 70billion Turks will come and rape UK women isn't (combination of pretty much 2 things Farage said) and the fact that no-one has put forth a report which truly states that the UK will see a economic benefit outside of the EU shows that people had already made up their minds and what the deciding factor in this referendum is.
    Because no-one thinks it will be economically painless in the short term. And no-one thinks these economic reports are politically independent. So the argument has nowhere to run.

    How come?
    Just the fact that there are several sectors which are dependent on immigration to remain. One big one is the NHS, especially if they want to grow it like they say (which they won't) they will need more immigration. Next to it, around half of the immigration is from inside the EU, the rest is from outside the EU. If they were so gung-ho on decreasing immigration to the 10s of thousands they would not still have 100s of thousands of non-EU immigration currently.
    But would they not have the ability to stop it?

    Anyway, recruitment to the NHS is something I happen to know a lot about. To say it is reliant on immigration is unfortunately one of the big, big lies. Currently in order to become a nurse in England, someone needs to have Cs in GCSE Maths and English, ABB at A Level, significant work experience in a relevant environment, then do a degree. And still despite all those somewhat artificial hurdles to get over, Nursing has just about the highest application to place ratio in higher education. As a country we could quadruple the number of new nurses almost overnight if we wanted to. Why we haven't done so and import other countries' nurses is an interesting question, but I digress.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #35 on: June 15, 2016, 12:43 »
    Lets just say that as an EU immigrant in the UK this does not instill me with confidence to stay here. Here I was finally in peace with the referendum and thinking there was no way leave would win. Now leave has done it and  gone full racist/xenophobic and they are shown in the lead in almost all polls  :( Luckily I had already send out a few job applications to other places in Europe and I'll continue to do so, just so I might leave soon after the referendum. I know that I won't be kicked out or anything, but the simple fact that most of the leave voters are doing so because they don't want EU citizens in the UK does not really instill a sense of wanting to stay here. Sure, I know it's focused on eastern europeans and lower skilled workers and the absurd notion that Turkey will join the EU and they'll all move to the UK, every single one of them. Still it really does not make me want to stay here. It really instills in me a feeling of wanting to go back to Europe, the real Europe, since the UK, especially England see themselves as completely separate from the rest of Europe. A large part of me wants them to just vote out so they can sod off to their little island and the same parts hopes that the EU is as vicious as possible in the negotiations and that this might lead to a faster more comprehensive unification of the rest of Europe (yes, I know that last part is a pipedream, but I sincerely wish it to be the case). Right now already you can see the markets and see that things will not go well for the UK and they'll only have themselves to blame and the way this referendum is playing out I really can't be too bothered by seeing this islands economy be tanked. This debate really makes me pretty much dislike the UK and really can't see them as anything other than little Englanders who should just rot on their island

    It's sad, but I know what you mean. We are 'Little England' far too often, basking in former glory (if indeed you can call it that), especially outside of London.

    The reality is if we do vote to leave, we will end up living like dogs. Much of our best talent will relocate, much of our income stream will relocate, investment from abroad will reduce dramatically and we'll become even more insular as just England, not even GB.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #36 on: June 15, 2016, 12:46 »
    Because there is a quite obvious difference between voting to support the status quo and voting to change it.

    If we had never joined the EU then we would likely have trade deals with all of the countries we wanted to trade with and so there would be no uncertainty about what would happen outside of the EU. Voting to join would also not create as much political instability and there would be little chance of a change of PM.

    As it happens, voting to leave is guaranteed to create uncertainty for the next 5-10 years at least. It would also give the impetus for a change of PM and a further shift to the right in UK politics.
    I agree with your points above but not with the conclusion you've drawn. It is a question of whether we want to be in the EU or not. If you realise you're on the wrong train, you need to get off it at the earliest opportunity. I'm not convinced that uncertainty is worse than being certainly wrong.
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  • DJW

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #37 on: June 15, 2016, 12:54 »
    I agree with your points above but not with the conclusion you've drawn. It is a question of whether we want to be in the EU or not. If you realise you're on the wrong train, you need to get off it at the earliest opportunity. I'm not convinced that uncertainty is worse than being certainly wrong.

    No you're quite right, but uncertainty does mean that Brexiters won't be able to create the scenario they envisaged either.

    I am not blind to the many faults of the EU, but I think the case is far far stronger to try and reform from the inside. The last thing people in this country need is a self-made recession and trade barriers.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #38 on: June 15, 2016, 12:57 »
    Lets just say that as an EU immigrant in the UK this does not instill me with confidence to stay here. Here I was finally in peace with the referendum and thinking there was no way leave would win. Now leave has done it and  gone full racist/xenophobic and they are shown in the lead in almost all polls  :( Luckily I had already send out a few job applications to other places in Europe and I'll continue to do so, just so I might leave soon after the referendum. I know that I won't be kicked out or anything, but the simple fact that most of the leave voters are doing so because they don't want EU citizens in the UK does not really instill a sense of wanting to stay here. Sure, I know it's focused on eastern europeans and lower skilled workers and the absurd notion that Turkey will join the EU and they'll all move to the UK, every single one of them. Still it really does not make me want to stay here. It really instills in me a feeling of wanting to go back to Europe, the real Europe, since the UK, especially England see themselves as completely separate from the rest of Europe. A large part of me wants them to just vote out so they can sod off to their little island and the same parts hopes that the EU is as vicious as possible in the negotiations and that this might lead to a faster more comprehensive unification of the rest of Europe (yes, I know that last part is a pipedream, but I sincerely wish it to be the case). Right now already you can see the markets and see that things will not go well for the UK and they'll only have themselves to blame and the way this referendum is playing out I really can't be too bothered by seeing this islands economy be tanked. This debate really makes me pretty much dislike the UK and really can't see them as anything other than little Englanders who should just rot on their island

    You seem to be confusing a desire to desire to back out of a political construct with a desire to somehow relocate geographically. I love Europe and I love Europeans, I just don't want to be tied into this political marriage with this group of them. The other issue you raise is that European unification can only happen within the Eurozone and the UK has already opted out of that, leaving us in economic limbo anyway. You may want unification but there are a number of nation states that are firmly against it, yours being one of them unless I'm misreading things. The only way it is going to happen is by mission creep, the big and always growing lie that is ever-closer-union.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #39 on: June 15, 2016, 13:04 »
    No you're quite right, but uncertainty does mean that Brexiters won't be able to create the scenario they envisaged either.

    I am not blind to the many faults of the EU, but I think the case is far far stronger to try and reform from the inside. The last thing people in this country need is a self-made recession and trade barriers.
    Reform would be nice, would have been nice, world peace too. I don't believe reform is compatible with this European project.

    If we stay in, before too long, you and Barrus are going to be looking at each other wondering what the hell you're doing in the same carriage.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #40 on: June 15, 2016, 13:08 »
    You seem to be confusing a desire to desire to back out of a political construct with a desire to somehow relocate geographically. I love Europe and I love Europeans, I just don't want to be tied into this political marriage with this group of them. The other issue you raise is that European unification can only happen within the Eurozone and the UK has already opted out of that, leaving us in economic limbo anyway. You may want unification but there are a number of nation states that are firmly against it, yours being one of them unless I'm misreading things. The only way it is going to happen is by mission creep, the big and always growing lie that is ever-closer-union.

    If you look at the way many people in England are reacting it seems like they have the desire to relocate geographically. But that is not what I was saying, I'm saying that the people in England are completely insular and want nothing to do with the rest of Europe and don't want people from Europe here, at least that is the way it is coming across. The people in England don't consider themselves to be a part of Europe and how you are saying that just now 'I love Europe and I love Europeans' shows it, you don't consider yourself European in England and that other people in Europe are equal, people in England still consider themselves as the great British empire and hope that it can all go back to the way it was when England was the major power in the world, to the good old days.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #41 on: June 15, 2016, 13:18 »
    If you look at the way many people in England are reacting it seems like they have the desire to relocate geographically. But that is not what I was saying, I'm saying that the people in England are completely insular and want nothing to do with the rest of Europe and don't want people from Europe here, at least that is the way it is coming across. The people in England don't consider themselves to be a part of Europe and how you are saying that just now 'I love Europe and I love Europeans' shows it, you don't consider yourself European in England and that other people in Europe are equal, people in England still consider themselves as the great British empire and hope that it can all go back to the way it was when England was the major power in the world, to the good old days.
    Bizarre, how would you describe people that are from Europe but not Dutch?
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #42 on: June 15, 2016, 13:23 »
    Bizarre, how would you describe people that are from Europe but not Dutch?


    The manner in which you wrote that in the context it was in, it comes across as seeing Europe and Europeans as others, as you not being that part of that group. For example when talking about the rest of Europe as Europe, thus excluding the UK from Europe. It might be minor but it comes across as not wanting to be a part of Europe. Most people I know when talking about the rest of Europe outside of the Dutch would say the rest of Europe, not implying in a way that the rest of Europe is Europe, but the Netherlands is outside of the notion of Europe.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #43 on: June 15, 2016, 13:48 »
    I simply can't comprehend why anyone would knowingly vote for a smaller economy (and all the ramifications of that to the poor, pensions, outlook) and a more divided society, with less security and a strengthening of the unwanted elements of society.

    I just don't get it.

    Maybe those who vote Leave can be held responsible for our loss in earnings, the reduction in our pension pots and the reduction in our freedom.
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  • Joelsim

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    Slow Rider

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #45 on: June 15, 2016, 13:55 »
    Obviously as a Dutchman who has lived in the UK for just a few months I'm not in the best position to join this discussion, but for me what this discussion mostly shows is just how complicated the issue is. Clearly there are intelligent arguments both ways, as we can see in this thread. It's not a case of racist bigots against the educated well-thinking progressives. Unfortunately the media debate is - as media debates too often are - led by populist sentiments from both sides. It is far from certain that a Brexit would be an unmitigated economic disaster and hand limitless power to the far-right supporters as the Remain side claims. And neither will it launch Britain into a golden age of economic progress and independence. The truth is much less straightforward and comforting: we don't know.

    Britain leaving the EU would be a first not only in Europe, but in the world. Never before has anyone left the EU. And never before has there been a supra-national organisation as far-reaching as the EU. So what will happen if Britain leaves? No one can say with any certainty. Because of this uncertainty, short-term effects will be negative - as even the Leave camp admits. Markets simply do not like uncertainty, so it will certainly hurt the country. Yet long term? Impossible to say. Partly, too, because so much depend on how a potential Brexit will be handled. To what degree will Britain continue to participate in the internal market of Europe? What kind of agreements will be negotiated with the EU? There is a huge grey area between full-on European integration and cutting all ties. Where in that grey area Britain will position itself will have a big effect. And that is something that is barely, if ever, discussed in the current debate.

    As for some of the arguments mentioned, one that stands out for me is the idea that Europe opened Britain up to globalisation and outsourcing to low-wage countries. Which is true. But the question is, would Britain have gone any other way if they were not in the EU? Outsourcing happens to non-EU countries too. It's not like Switzerland and Norway have a huge industrial sector, or like the US and Japan do not suffer from industrial decline. The ways to counter this are to either install trade barriers, or to significantly lower wages, which no one wants. Simply removing EU regulations on issues such as pollution will not nearly be enough to compensate for the cost difference between producing in the UK and in, say, Vietnam. Trade barriers, meanwhile, would hurt export as much as import. Plus, it would require more than just leaving the EU: leaving the IMF for instance. And even then it's far from certain British industry would be re-envigorated.

    The overall effects of leaving the EU are far from clear, but personally I struggle to see how it will really improve the UK economy. One way the UK could go would be to re-open ties with Commonwealth or enter into trade agreements with the US, but both those options have many of the same problems as being part of the EU has. Removing EU regulations on for instance pollution and waste may give a slight boost to the economy, but will it improve the country as a whole - or even just outweigh the negative economic effects? I doubt it, and most economists who have studied for these things agree. But those same economists have missed a couple of huge crises in recent years, so the value of their predictions is up for debate. I personally attach more value to them than to the gut feelings you and I have, but I can see why one would distrust them.

    Some of the non-economical arguments from both sides frankly scare me. Some of you said that the EU is good to counter the power of the Tories. Yet they are a democratically elected government and, much though I personally loathe them, they are the majority in the UK at the moment so should govern. You may believe they are driving the country to ruin, but if they the majority is happy with that then it's fine: that's democracy. Of course there are and should be limits to democracy, such as an independent judicial system and basic human rights. Both of which Britain has and will continue to have even after leaving the EU.

    Immigration, meanwhile, is always a hornet's nest of issues. Yes there are issues with it, clearly. But is isolating from the continent really the way to deal with those issues? One thing I honestly do not know is how Britain leaving the EU would affect the opportunities Britain has to limit immigration. The country has to continue to respect international treaties and already takes no part in Schengen. Which realistic options will it give the British goverment, that they do not already have? But that notwithstanding, I think we can all agree that the tone the immigration debate is held in is no good for anyone. That applies to the UK as well as to most of continental Europe, by the way, and has little to do with a Brexit.

    The EU does have a number of huge issues though, and those issues are unlikely to be resolved any time soon. It is an incredibly bureaucratic organisation that does a lot of harm, spends too much on the wrong things and is generally highly inefficient. In an ideal world, we would use this pro or anti-EU energy to reform the EU rather than try to leave it. Perhaps the shock of a Brexit would provide the EU with the kick in the arse they need to start seriously re-thinking their options. Yet that is unlikely to happen. The EU needs a huge shake-up sooner rather than later. I still believe it is doing more good than harm but that, too, is impossible to know for sure.

    What it comes down to is whether it's better to tackle the world's issues alone or together. Global warming, immigration, security, tax evasion, oil dependence, human rights abuses... All this requires more rather than less international cooperation if we want to have any chance of succeeding. Is the EU the perfect organisation for doing so? No, definitely not. But will a Brexit make Britain and the world at large more adept to handle those issues? I don't think so.
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  • « Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 14:06 by Slow Rider »

    Slow Rider

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #46 on: June 15, 2016, 13:56 »
    Christ, I didn't mean to write a thesis on this sh*t. Sorry folks.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #47 on: June 15, 2016, 13:57 »

    The manner in which you wrote that in the context it was in, it comes across as seeing Europe and Europeans as others, as you not being that part of that group. For example when talking about the rest of Europe as Europe, thus excluding the UK from Europe. It might be minor but it comes across as not wanting to be a part of Europe. Most people I know when talking about the rest of Europe outside of the Dutch would say the rest of Europe, not implying in a way that the rest of Europe is Europe, but the Netherlands is outside of the notion of Europe.
    Well that gets around the place, but the people? People that are from the rest of Europe I suppose. Forgive me a little stylistic licence, I was trying to work love and marriage into the sentence; hardly Albert Camus I know, but hopefully more readable than something that's forensically correct.

    I am happy to be corrected but I think we commonly use the term Europeans to describe both: people who are from Europe including British; and people who are from Europe excluding the British, dependent on context.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #48 on: June 15, 2016, 13:57 »
    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/743038763048308736

    This is in line with the fact that in march and the first weeks of april about 65 billion pounds were taken out of the UK and diverted to elsewhere
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #49 on: June 15, 2016, 14:10 »

    Some of the non-economical arguments from both sides frankly scare me. Some of you said that the EU is good to counter the power of the Tories. Yet they are a democratically elected government and, much though I personally loathe them, they are the majority in the UK at the moment so should govern. You may believe they are driving the country to ruin, but if they the majority is happy with that then it's fine: that's democracy. Of course there are and should be limits to democracy, such as an independent judicial system and basic human rights. Both of which Britain has and will continue to have even after leaving the EU.



    Slow, I do hate to pick out a single thing from your post, but while I might disagree with some things concerning this part, I do agree with most of the sentiment of this. I do however have one big gripe with this, the simple fact that they want to get out of the European Convention of Human Rights is the thing I have a real issue with, this is the protection of those basic human rights and they want to change this to be more in line with certain Tory ideals, thus not imposing the same limits of basic human rights. the simple fact that the UK government could then later change this list of basic human rights, without any outside supervision or control means that basic human rights cannot be guaranteed at all times in the future and thus being dependent on the government and the majority, which means that the human rights of especially minorities might not be protected in the future.
    Now do I say that these basic human rights will not be protected, I can't say that with absolute certainty. Do I think it is likely that specific human rights will not be protected to the same degree as they are now? I am quite confident that this will happen when they leave the European Union and the European Convention on Human Rights, especially the right to privacy and the protection of a persons data.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #50 on: June 15, 2016, 14:22 »
    Christ, I didn't mean to write a thesis on this sh*t. Sorry folks.
    I'm sorry too, made the rest of us a bit redundant.
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  • Havetts

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #51 on: June 15, 2016, 14:32 »
    With regards to FPTP, imo this is a good video on the issues with it:
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #52 on: June 15, 2016, 14:42 »
    Slow, I do hate to pick out a single thing from your post, but while I might disagree with some things concerning this part, I do agree with most of the sentiment of this. I do however have one big gripe with this, the simple fact that they want to get out of the European Convention of Human Rights is the thing I have a real issue with, this is the protection of those basic human rights and they want to change this to be more in line with certain Tory ideals, thus not imposing the same limits of basic human rights. the simple fact that the UK government could then later change this list of basic human rights, without any outside supervision or control means that basic human rights cannot be guaranteed at all times in the future and thus being dependent on the government and the majority, which means that the human rights of especially minorities might not be protected in the future.
    Now do I say that these basic human rights will not be protected, I can't say that with absolute certainty. Do I think it is likely that specific human rights will not be protected to the same degree as they are now? I am quite confident that this will happen when they leave the European Union and the European Convention on Human Rights, especially the right to privacy and the protection of a persons data.

    I guess this is where we differ in our amount of pessimism over UK politics. The referendum is about leaving the EU, leaving the Convention for Human Rights is a separate issue. If a UK government would want to do that - and I find it hard to see the current one doing so - they would at the very least require another referendum. Which would, I think, probably fail. Yes it will get support from some of the current Leave voters, but many of them will also object.

    And besides, the current convention has members such as Turkey and Russia. Clearly the convention is no complete safeguard against discrimination of minorities, as those countries show. If those countries are members, I really don't see Britain leaving.

    With regards to FPTP, imo this is a good video on the issues with it:

    FPTP is not my favourite system, but there are no perfect democratic systems in the world. There are plenty of issues with coalition governments as we have in the Netherlands as well.

    But more significantly, I don't see how issues regarding a imperfect democratic system have much to do with remaining in or leaving the EU - which, as most of us will agree - has a democratic deficit far greater than anything created by a system such as FPTP.
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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #53 on: June 15, 2016, 15:51 »
    Vintage Slow Rider, a long text just to show how tolerant and more or less neutral he is.  :lol Love it.

    So I'd try to give a first reply but not to the whole thing because I didn't have time to read it through lol. And will respond to your PM, too.  ;)

    It's true that Norway and Switzerland practice free circulation of capitals like most if not all Western countries. However it's not the right approach in my opinion. Let's suppose that a given country, Britain in our case, leaves the EU. Cameron would probably not resign (I think) and they would still allow capital movement with the rest of the world. Yet it would be up to the British people to change that situation at the following general elections, if it is what they want. At least, they would gain independence back (I know ou deny this but it remains a fact). In the current situation, if any given party at the British General Election claims to protect the British industry and labour against developing countries' industry and this while remaining in the EU, they are deceiving the opinion because it would be against the treaties (and the treaties have force of law in Europe) and those treaties are almost impossible to renegotiate because it would require the unanimity of the 28 member states, an impossibility.

    What we should look at is how it went before the liberalisation of capital movement, which for Europe dates from Maastricht (contemporary to the Uruguay Round, the GATT agreement and the WTO creation) at the turn of the nineties. Before that, you never heard of any such things as globalisation. Why? Well because all our finance ministries had a department called the control of capital movements. If a company wished to relocate its production overseas, they had to pass by this department of the finance ministry. Be careful! Controlling capital movements does not mean, rejecting every request to relocate production overseas. Only the civil servants at that department were supposed to stud the file and if it served general interest, they said OK and if not they said NO. Most of the time it was a NO but sometimes it was YES. For example, by 1959, the French Peugeot relocate part of its production in Iran under the Shah's regime, on the condition that they did not re-export their production to France, because the French also controlled their exports by then. So you had no social dumping. I think we somehow should get back to that situation, some day.

    I don't have time to expand on this but I might say more.

    Also a technical detail, several states have already left the EU when it was still the EEC. Greenland has left it in 1985 and I think a few Dutch Caribbean Islands left it as well but I don't remember which ones. Of course, they don't have Britain's influence but they still exist.

    It's true that the EU is the most advanced supranational continental block in the World but several plans exist for example to transform the NAFTA into a North American Union with a single currency (the name Amero has been put forward for the North American currency but that might change). You have the Unasur in South America also with a common parliament and common currency project. You have an African Union project, a Eurasian project (supported by Putin who calls for a Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok and with a supranational nature). So the trend is really global.  ;)
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  • "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

    Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #54 on: June 15, 2016, 18:00 »
    "Brexit: AA Gill argues for ‘In’

    We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of that most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia

    It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country.

    Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”

    It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”

    Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean.

    They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles.

    Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.

    We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia.

    The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty.

    It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.

    The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.

    And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.”

     This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.

    All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again.

    Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.

    There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.

    The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories.

    Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr.

    What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.

    Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty

    We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex.

    They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

    Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

    When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us.

     Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”

    Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to.

    And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

    Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’

    You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.”

    This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.

    Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem.

    We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.

    The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective.

    If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else.

    I am part of this culture, this European civilisation.

    I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls.
    These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years.

    I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.

    There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence.

    What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.

    The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.

    Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it.

    You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you?

    This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?

    I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it?

    In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits.

    Look at them, too frightened to join in."
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #55 on: June 15, 2016, 18:12 »
     AA Gill arguing for staying in is the best argument I've heard for getting out.
    A horrible bloke.
    At my age, I'd rather play safe than risk the unknown.
    Besides, being Welsh, not English, I'm in no way insular and like being European.
    I'm just not sure that the rest of Europe want us.

    It would be interesting to have another poll on that subject.
    Does the rest of Europe want us in, or re-located to 30km West of Antarctica? :D

    Oh and enough of these dissertation type posts already.
    Too much info for a simple cycling fan.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    LukasCPH

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #56 on: June 15, 2016, 18:51 »
    At my age, I'd rather play safe than risk the unknown.
    Besides, being Welsh, not English, I'm in no way insular and like being European.
    I'm just not sure that the rest of Europe want us.
    The Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish we definitely want!
    It's just the English we're sometimes unsure about. ;)
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    Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #57 on: June 15, 2016, 19:09 »
    The Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish we definitely want!
    It's just the English we're sometimes unsure about. ;)

    I too am unsure about the English. Some of them anyway.
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  • t-72

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #58 on: June 15, 2016, 19:25 »
    Voted "What Referendum" because I clicked on the tread to read rants regarding the british referees at Euro 2016.   :D
    They're a disgrace  :angry

    Hope at least Collum can manage France vs Albania.


    PS: As I realize this is about politics and stuff now, if the UK leaves the EU
    1) do we get to kick all the overpaid British managers out of the Euro zone?
    2) will there be possibilities to put an import tax on BBC television shows?
    3) There are these professional athletes, will they be allowed to work, on the continent? I am assuming that if they are born outside of the UK, live outside of the UK , and have their main source of income outside of the UK, for tax reasons that may be considered as they are not UK citizens?


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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #59 on: June 15, 2016, 19:51 »
    yes, I definitely think those uneducated immigrants from 3rd world countries like Colombia, Belarus or even the Czech Republic "working" ( :b3 ) for Team Sky will be in trouble  :angel
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