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Poll

Will the UK leave the EU or not?

Yes and they should
4 (16.7%)
Yes, but they shouldn't
7 (29.2%)
No, but they should
1 (4.2%)
No and they shouldn't
8 (33.3%)
What referendum?
4 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24


Joelsim

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Re: UK Ref
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2016, 20:10 »
Maybe that's the key!

Tell all of our thuggish football fans that their team will struggle to buy European players. The Leave vote would be halved!
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  • stereojet

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #61 on: June 15, 2016, 20:42 »
    Interesting debate here folks. I've got a couple of observations:

    1) The economic issue might be extremely complicated but it can be boiled down to the salience of the 160m per week that we pay in (net). I'm not about to quibble on the figure itself but what it represents in macroeconomic terms: 0.6% of GDP. Any decline in GDP over that amount instantly wipes out any benefit of leaving the EU. And without proper access to (not to mention protection from) the EU's trading areas, I can't see any way that we would not experience a drop in GDP.

    2) The immigration issue is bounce back from forty odd years of lies,obfuscation and cowardice over the issue. Rhetoric such as Thatcher's carefully calibrated 'swamped' comments right through Cameron's attempts to talk tough about immigration has never been properly challenged and has led to a situation where immigrants have been targeted as the cause of all our ills. I see this as a disgraceful dereliction of our politicians' duty to engage in mature political debate.

    3) The generation issue is fundamental. Young people want in; old people out. We've got to look to the future.

     
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #62 on: June 15, 2016, 20:50 »
    This is a good read. No mention of the economy and a completely different angle that applies to all EU member states in many instances. A left wing perspective I've just copied and pasted.


    Alright, you filthy animals. I don't normally do this, because I believe that everyone should have the right to vote how they want at elections, but a) this ain't an election, it's a referendum so go sh*t yourself, and b) I honestly believe that the stakes are too high for me not to get involved here. If I can influence even one person with this post, then I'll feel like I've done something important. As a result, feel free to share this far and wide as I've done a veritable flipload of research and I don't want all my hard work going to waste.

    So, I'll put my cards on the table: I believe, very very strongly, that we need to stay in the EU. I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with David 'PigFellatio' Cameron, but in this unfortunate case I am, and here's why.

    We stand to gain SO MUCH from staying in the EU. "How much", you're (probably not) asking? Well, I made a convenient list for your perusal, WITH sources, so you can't be a twit and say 'you're making that up!' and froth at the mouth like a rabid :censored.

    I know people on the internet like listicles with clickbait titles, so here are "14 Reasons Why We Shouldn't Leave The EU That Everyone Should Know! You Won't Believe #8!":
    1) The EU provides easy access to 1/3 of the world's markets by value (in other words, the EU's combined market value is 1/3 of the entire world's, and we can tap into it whenever the flip we want). [1] It also gives UK businesses preferential market access to over 50 countries OUTSIDE the EU, including some of the fastest-growing economies in the world like Myanmar and India. [2]
    2) The EU gives us better product safety. You know, so your toddler doesn't impale him/herself on a sh*ttily designed toy, or swallow a load of poisonous plastic. [3] 
    3) The EU gives structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline (hello, Cornwall). [4]
    4) The EU gave us lead-free petrol. [5]
    5) The EU gives us cheaper mobile charges. [6] It also gives us cheaper air travel. [7] flip yeah, cheap things!
    6) The EU gives us cleaner beaches, rivers and air (hello again, Cornwall). [8]
    7) The EU gives us improved consumer protection and food labelling, so you actually know what it's in your Chicken McNuggets (hint: it's chicken. It wasn't always chicken, though). [9]
    8) The EU has helped break up monopolies. [10] If you don't know why monopolies are a Very Bad Thing, try playing the popular board game 'Monopoly' and see how many friends you have left when you win.
    9) The EU gives us cross-border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling, and terrorism. [11]
    10) Being a member of the EU means no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market, as well as the freedom to travel, live and work across Europe. [12] This one is particularly important for me as someone who likes to live, work and travel abroad. Do you have ANY IDEA how flipping great it is to be able to travel and work visa-free?! Having to a get a visa for every single country you enter is a nightmare, believe me. If you've ever tried to travel around Asia, Africa or South America, you'll understand what I'm saying.
    11) The EU creates and helps uphold all kinds of awesome human rights, such as equal pay legislation, holiday entitlement, and the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime. [13] I'd also like to point out that it's some of these same human rights that David 'Porktwitter' Cameron tried to erode back in 2014, with the EU playing a major role in stopping him. [14]
    12) The EU creates and upholds all kinds of great animal welfare legislation; it has the strongest wildlife protection laws in the world and contributes to improved animal welfare in food production. [15]
    13) The EU funds incredible scientific research and industrial collaboration (including, most recently, a project that may be the catalyst for a cure for breast cancer being found in the next few years, I sh*t you not). [16]
    14) Finally, and arguably most importantly, the EU has been a foundation of unity for 60 or so years between European neighbours, after so many years of bloodshed. [17] It has also facilitated the remarkable social, political and economic conversion of 13 former dictatorships into EU members since 1980. [18]

    SOURCES:
    [1] http://news.cbi.org.uk/business-issues/uk-and-the-european-union/eu-business-facts/10-facts-about-eu-trade-deals-pdf/
    [2] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-1080_en.htm
    [3] http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumers_safety/product_safety_legislation/general_product_safety_directive/index_en.htm
    [4] https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/business/europe/european-structural-and-investment-fund/
    [5] http://ec.europa.eu/environment/life/project/Projects/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showFile&rep=file&fil=LIFE05_ENV_D_000197_LAYMAN.pdf
    [6] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/27/europe-abolishes-mobile-phone-roaming-charges
    [7] http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm
    [8] http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/05/england-beaches-bathing-waters-eu-standards
    [9] http://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/labelling_nutrition/labelling_legislation/index_en.htm
    [10] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law (I know I'm not supposed to use Wikipedia as a source for its less-than-rigorous academic standards, but flip YOU I'm not in uni anymore, I'll do what I like).
    [11] http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/eccc18&div=8&id=&page=
    [12] http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/index_en.htm
    [13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights
    [14] https://www.rt.com/uk/324590-human-rights-scrap-gove/
    [15] http://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/index_en.htm
    [16] http://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/94691_en.html
    [17] The Second World War, motherfliper. Read a history book.
    [18] The Cold War, motherfliper. Read a history book.

    And now, let's take a moment to address some of the arguments for leaving the EU. Apart from the fact that I can't find a single reputable study that suggests we'd be any better off outside of the EU (and believe me, I've looked; I want to research my counterarguments as thoroughly as my arguments), the most persuasive arguments I've found are what I'm going to term 'the trade argument' and 'the immigration argument'.

    The trade argument goes as follows: if we left the EU, we could negotiate a sort of 'amicable divorce' where we somehow retain strong trading links with the EU while not being subject to its laws. Many people point to Canada as a good example of this model, which recently negotiated a CETA (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement- do I have to google EVERYTHING for you?) with the EU. I have two retorts to this argument. My first retort: Canada was never a part of the EU in the first place. To return to the divorce analogy outlined above- whereby the EU and the U.K. are a sort of 'married couple' and trade is their kids- the U.K. seeking a CETA after leaving the EU would be like a nasty, messy divorce where one parent uses the kids as a weapon against the other, threatening to take them away whenever their demands aren't met. Canada's CETA, meanwhile, is like a married couple approaching someone else to have a threesome at a swinger's party, which sounds a lot more fun and exciting, I'm sure you'll agree. My second retort to the above argument is simple: why even take the risk? If we stay in the EU, our trade with them will continue to be prosperous and full of great sex while the kids are asleep (okay, I've taken the analogy too far now). If we leave, however, there's a chance any trade agreement could fail catastrophically and leave our economy in a sh*tstorm. In fact, I would argue the likes of Germany, France and other leading EU nations would not simply let us pick and choose what rules and trade agreements we adhere to, so the likelihood of us being absolutely fine, trade-wise, after leaving the EU seems overly optimistic. Plus negotiating a CETA of any kind could take years and have a completely uncertain outcome. Again, why take the risk? An additional point: arguments no. 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, and 12 above are examples of really great laws and regulations the EU has introduced. If you say you want to leave the EU so we have autonomy over our own laws, you know that you're effectively handing control of our country over to David 'HideTheSausageLiterally' Cameron, don't you? In terms of making laws that benefit all of us, I trust the EU way more than that guy.

    The immigration argument tends to centre around the whole 'visa-free work and travel' thing, and is generally espoused by people terrified of dem immigantz stealin are jobz. Alternatively it's espoused by people afraid of terrorists being able to come here more easily, but for that I'd refer you to point no. 9 above; we're safer from terrorism in the EU because we can share intelligence and resources with other countries more easily. But back to the 'stealing our jobs' fear; while it's true that technically speaking there could be an influx of foreigners coming to claim your particular job at any moment, just remember, we've been part of the EU for 43 years now and it hasn't happened yet, despite what the mainstream media may tell you (and you DEFINITELY shouldn't trust those guys; more on that later). Seriously, do you know ANYONE, personally, that has had their job stolen by a foreigner? Be honest now. I'd be willing to wager that you don't, and I'll explain why that is too: the immigrants that are coming here are not stealing YOUR jobs, specifically. They're either starting their own businesses (in which case they're actually creating jobs), or they're skilled labourers taking jobs there just aren't enough trained British people to take (such as doctors or surgeons), or they're unskilled labourers taking the jobs that you don't want (like toilet cleaning or washing dishes). Incidentally, about a year ago I taught English to some Eastern European immigrants who worked in a salad-packing factory in Lichfield. One
    Latvian girl was actually a teacher back home, but she was making more money as a salad-packer here than she was as a teacher in Latvia(!)- the point being that unskilled immigrant workers are generally happy to work sh*tty menial jobs that no British person wants, and your cushy 9-to-5 office job is not under threat. Not even a little bit- so don't worry your xenophobic little head about it. Oh, and one last thing on this subject, to paraphrase Louis CK: maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're sh*t at your job.

    If you've made it thus far through this absolute essay of a post, congratulations! You're nearly at the end! But before I go, I just want to hit you with one final thought. Over 80% of UK newspapers are owned by five right-wing media billionaires (aka five massive :censoredstacks): Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail), Rupert Murdoch (Sun/Times), Richard Desmond (Express), and the Barclay Brothers (Telegraph). Murdoch is an Australian living in New York and Rothermere lives in France, while the Barclay Brothers live in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes. And guess who wants to stop billionaires using tax havens to avoid paying their taxes? That's right, the EU. So of COURSE the British newspapers are trying to persuade you to leave the EU; it benefits their owners personally. The moral of the story is, don't gather your views from newspapers. Do some research like I have with this post, you lazy twonknoggin.

    In conclusion: we're in a really great position right now. We're part of the EU with all the benefits that entails, but without being tied to their notoriously unstable currency. Leaving the EU would not only be hypocritical since we spent so much time telling Scotland they shouldn't leave the UK this time last year with all that lovely 'better together' rhetoric, it might also be downright stupid and harmful to our economy.

    tl;dr version: Vote to stay in the EU, you filthy animals. Because reasons. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #63 on: June 15, 2016, 21:33 »
    I've very quickly skim read the thread but one of the things that has been raised and is actually important in some ways is the European Convention on Human Rights. Mainly because it has nothing to do with the EU but some people seem to think it does.

    Speaking with colleagues, friends etc some of them seem to be basing there decision around what they think this is and their ignorance of the fact that it has nothing to do with the EU.

    It has led me (rightly or wrongly) to the conclusion that many of us don't know what we are actually voting for. There will be people who vote out who if we do have an out vote will suddenly have to realise that some of the things the thought were about the EU and thought would dissappear if we voted out are still in place.

    The ignorance on matters relating to the EU is not helped by our press. In the last week I have seen innacurate headlines on frontpages of newspapers be they left, right, pro or anti EU.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #64 on: June 15, 2016, 22:32 »
    I've very quickly skim read the thread but one of the things that has been raised and is actually important in some ways is the European Convention on Human Rights. Mainly because it has nothing to do with the EU but some people seem to think it does.

    Speaking with colleagues, friends etc some of them seem to be basing there decision around what they think this is and their ignorance of the fact that it has nothing to do with the EU.

    It has led me (rightly or wrongly) to the conclusion that many of us don't know what we are actually voting for. There will be people who vote out who if we do have an out vote will suddenly have to realise that some of the things the thought were about the EU and thought would dissappear if we voted out are still in place.

    The ignorance on matters relating to the EU is not helped by our press. In the last week I have seen innacurate headlines on frontpages of newspapers be they left, right, pro or anti EU.
    The reason I brought it up is because conservativesh ave stated multiple times during the lead up that they will get out of the Europeanc convention of human rights. Within the EU this would not be as terrible because of the European charter of human rights, which apart from relatively minor differences and interpretation aspects is basically similar to the ECHR. But outside of the EU this extra protection is not in place. That is why in my mind it does have to do with each other.
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #65 on: June 15, 2016, 22:50 »
    The reason I brought it up is because conservativesh ave stated multiple times during the lead up that they will get out of the Europeanc convention of human rights. Within the EU this would not be as terrible because of the European charter of human rights, which apart from relatively minor differences and interpretation aspects is basically similar to the ECHR. But outside of the EU this extra protection is not in place. That is why in my mind it does have to do with each other.

    They said that they would but they cant without a renegotiation of the Good Friday Agreement or Scottish Devolution as the GFA says it has to have effect in NI and the Scottish parliament can have a veto on any replacement to it.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #66 on: June 15, 2016, 23:10 »
    Osborne announces emergency budget to find £30bn shortfall in the event of Brexit, half to be funded by tax rise, half in cuts to the NHS.

    Not going to endear him to many people but it may make the oldies think. Plus of course it makes a mockery of the supposed £8.5bn savings that would 'obviously' be redirected into the NHS by Boris and Gove.

    This will no doubt be partnered with very bad pension and savings news this week.

    My view is that if your parents are thinking of voting to leave, visit them on Wednesday night and borrow their spectacles whilst hiding their voting cards.

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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #67 on: June 16, 2016, 12:08 »
    Well, apparently it seems like the outcome of this referendum might rip the UK apart, outside of the Scots, the Chief minister of Gibraltar is calling for joining Spain if the UK leaves
    https://translate.google.es/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lasexta.com%2Fnoticias%2Finternacional%2Fgibraltar-amenaza-reino-unido-unirse-espana-produce-brexit_20160529574ac8ee4beb288880677103.html&edit-text=&authuser=0

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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #68 on: June 16, 2016, 12:19 »
    Well, apparently it seems like the outcome of this referendum might rip the UK apart, outside of the Scots, the Chief minister of Gibraltar is calling for joining Spain if the UK leaves
    :o
    Gibraltar was always a bastion of Britishness. Even considering joining Spain is a big "flip you" to the Leave campaigners.
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    barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #69 on: June 16, 2016, 12:21 »
    :o
    Gibraltar was always a bastion of Britishness. Even considering joining Spain is a big "flip you" to the Leave campaigners.

    well, it makes sense if you look at the economy of the rock and the fact that they are almost unanimous in their support for remaining in the EU
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  • Slapshot

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #70 on: June 16, 2016, 12:54 »
    Hmm, Interesting. I'll say at the outset that I'm not a fan of Europe as a political entity, I never have been. We are all entitled to our own perspective and opinions, what is important is that everyone votes.

    Now the problem with this is similar to the Indy ref we had a couple of years back here in Scotland, we had a referendum based on nothing but rumour, bluster and lies because none of the politicians really wanted to engage with the truth. Salmond kept his rant and $140 a barrel of oil would sustain an Independant Scotland.... that fallacy didn't last long!

    The EU ref is full of the same bluster, spin and lies, there is no truth out there because hustings through FEAR and rhetoric create better headlines than the truth. Will there be a £10bn black hole in the finances, who knows noone is telling us the simple truth. There are hundreds of articles that tell you there will be but they all come from a specific perspective. Will we save £350mill a week again no one will tell the truth of what we'd save outwith the EU.

    Shut your eyes and take a stab in the dark, whatever happens on the 23rd it'll mean nothing to the monied masses it's just the poor folk that will suffer!
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #71 on: June 16, 2016, 12:58 »
    Will we save £350mill a week again no one will tell the truth of what we'd save outwith the EU.


    This is one thing I can be certain of, no, no you won't. Because even disregarding the money the EU invests in the UK, due to the rebate the UK does not give 350 million pound to the EU. It's so weird that a thing that has been widely discredited as basically a lie is being repeated this much and this widely and still used as propaganda of the leave campaign. Now I can understand there are arguments for leaving, many incorrect in my point of view, but the 350 million figure is just a real big piece of misinformation
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #72 on: June 16, 2016, 13:31 »
    Osborne announces emergency budget to find £30bn shortfall in the event of Brexit, half to be funded by tax rise, half in cuts to the NHS.

    Not going to endear him to many people but it may make the oldies think. Plus of course it makes a mockery of the supposed £8.5bn savings that would 'obviously' be redirected into the NHS by Boris and Gove.

    This will no doubt be partnered with very bad pension and savings news this week.

    My view is that if your parents are thinking of voting to leave, visit them on Wednesday night and borrow their spectacles whilst hiding their voting cards.
    If we vote to leave, Osborne will be announcing nothing but his resignation. He's pointing a gun at his own head and threatening to shoot if we don't do what he wants. Bad idea Georgy, go ahead, shoot.

    Why you think that makes a mockery of anything but Osborne is a question only you can answer.
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  • Slapshot

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #73 on: June 16, 2016, 13:35 »
    This is one thing I can be certain of, no, no you won't. Because even disregarding the money the EU invests in the UK, due to the rebate the UK does not give 350 million pound to the EU. It's so weird that a thing that has been widely discredited as basically a lie is being repeated this much and this widely and still used as propaganda of the leave campaign. Now I can understand there are arguments for leaving, many incorrect in my point of view, but the 350 million figure is just a real big piece of misinformation

    I read somewhere the other day that around 10bn is the sum pa net ie including the rebate. Ultimately that's my point, it's all lies and spin. If Osbournes tax nonsense the other day was legitimate whay would nearly a third of his parties MP's say otherwise, a handful you could suggest were just being obtuse but a 67?? Politics has lost sense of reality and in the end it's poor sods like us that suffer.

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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #74 on: June 16, 2016, 13:52 »
    This is one thing I can be certain of, no, no you won't. Because even disregarding the money the EU invests in the UK, due to the rebate the UK does not give 350 million pound to the EU. It's so weird that a thing that has been widely discredited as basically a lie is being repeated this much and this widely and still used as propaganda of the leave campaign. Now I can understand there are arguments for leaving, many incorrect in my point of view, but the 350 million figure is just a real big piece of misinformation
    Actually as a whole this debate (the wider one, not the forum one) is demonstrating a fair amount of economic illiteracy. The economic reason for voting to come out is that you believe that there is a potential long term benefit to negotiating our own trade deals with who we want, and being released from EU barriers to entry.

    What people keep coming out with are arguments based on a potential short term economic impact, which in my uninformed opinion will probably be negative for all involved. In this respect, whether the saving is £350m per week or something less is somewhat irrelevant, the amount paid is significant over time.

    The debate also hasn't touched at all on the long term economic viability of a number of members of the Eurozone and the previous failures in democracy where member states have hit a crisis e.g. Italy and Greece.
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  • Slapshot

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #75 on: June 16, 2016, 14:20 »
    That's another issue, the longer term economic viability of Europe, everyone's economies are flaky at best these days, from what we read the French and German economies are in trouble in addition to the already very flaky Italian, Spanish and Greek  monetary systems.

    I wonder how much longer Project Europe can sustain itself never mind Brexit, though from one article I read the biggest worry was Britain leaving because they were needed to shore up the rest of Europe!
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #76 on: June 16, 2016, 14:44 »
    Sweet Jesus, I knew this referendum was pretty heated and was bringing out the worst out of people, but this is insane:
    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/live-jo-cox-shot-birstall-11482692

    Quote
    Labour MP Jo Cox was shot and injured in an attack in her constituency in West Yorkshire.

    Quote
    The man who gunned down Ms Cox shouted ‘Britain First’, an eyewitness claims.

    Speaking to Sky News, the witness said the shooter looked to be in his 60s or 70s.

    He said the man walked very slowly away from the scene after the attack.
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  • Slapshot

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #77 on: June 16, 2016, 17:24 »
    To gether there on a day she specifically does her constituency surgeries might suggest a lot more than just something to do with the referendum, I suppose we'll hear more about it soon!!
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  • Havetts

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #78 on: June 16, 2016, 18:18 »
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36550304

    Unbelievable, what a tragedy..
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #79 on: June 16, 2016, 19:54 »
    Pretty much shows what the UK will be like should we vote leave.

    Poorer economically. Poorer socially. fliped in other words.

    RIP Jo.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #80 on: June 16, 2016, 20:12 »
    Frankly when it's as clear cut as this, the Brexiteers should be held accountable for the losses that'll be suffered by those who want to stay.

    There is no excuse.
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  • LaVelocipede

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #81 on: June 16, 2016, 21:18 »
    Okay, I am aware that my opinion doesn't count. I have no vote, and am not a British citizen (I think). But here in Ireland, we trade quite a lot with our former colonial overlords, so I have something to say. I don't want Ireland to be tariffed on trading with the UK. I don't want any sort of charges. I don't want much economic instability in an important country. I certainly don't want border controls if I drive through Fermanagh, and I don't want any instability up North. These things all, to me, seem likely to me if you crowd leave, for reasons you can see above and elsewhere, and none of these sound good.
    So stay, a'ight? You're not too bad really.


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  • "Cycling is like boxing: It's not a game. It's a hard, pitiless sport that demands very great sacrifices.One plays football, tennis, hockey, but one does not play at cycling."
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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #82 on: June 16, 2016, 22:25 »
    Pretty much shows what the UK will be like should we vote leave.

    Poorer economically. Poorer socially. fliped in other words.

    RIP Jo.
    Stay classy.  :S
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #83 on: June 16, 2016, 22:34 »
    Pretty much shows what the UK will be like should we vote leave.

    Poorer economically. Poorer socially. fliped in other words.

    RIP Jo.
    Frankly when it's as clear cut as this, the Brexiteers should be held accountable for the losses that'll be suffered by those who want to stay.

    There is no excuse.

    I hope you realised you're being just as sensationalist, biased, extremist, and perhaps even misanthropic as you seem to believe the Leave camp media campaign is?
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  • Havetts

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #84 on: June 16, 2016, 22:48 »


    From the Financial Times.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #85 on: June 16, 2016, 22:51 »
    I hope you realised you're being just as sensationalist, biased, extremist, and perhaps even misanthropic as you seem to believe the Leave camp media campaign is?

    I'll have to live here, a huge recession, my pension decreasing in value, rising hatred and division.

    Nothing sensationalist about that, just an absolute nightmare.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #86 on: June 16, 2016, 23:16 »
    Okay, I am aware that my opinion doesn't count. I have no vote, and am not a British citizen (I think). But here in Ireland, we trade quite a lot with our former colonial overlords, so I have something to say. I don't want Ireland to be tariffed on trading with the UK. I don't want any sort of charges. I don't want much economic instability in an important country. I certainly don't want border controls if I drive through Fermanagh, and I don't want any instability up North. These things all, to me, seem likely to me if you crowd leave, for reasons you can see above and elsewhere, and none of these sound good.
    So stay, a'ight? You're not too bad really.
    Aah the Irish, politically at daggers drawn with us but the best of friends in the pub.

    My idea of what sort of 'common market' Britain might realistically be part of, is loosely based around who we get on with in the pub - a test of cultural and social compatibility if you will. The Irish would score top marks here but lose ground when it comes to the more boring tests like political and economic compatibility.

    The only country we share a border with... I hadn't really considered it from an immigration point of view. But then again, I feel that the current division is not going to continue much longer, and a brexit vote might speed that process up. Interesting times...
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  • Echoes

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #87 on: June 17, 2016, 07:26 »
    It all remind me of the murder of Annah Lindh shortly before the Swedish referendum on the Euro in 2003. The voting date had then been maintained in order to make sure that the Swedes vote for sentimentalist, irrational reasons and not out of critical thinking. Wisdom commanded that the voting should have been postponed but no. Yet, they voted to stay out of the Eurozone and this was beneficial to them in the following years. I'm not making it a CT but cui bono? Is it needed to make clear that I condemn this murder?


    By the way, as much as I would like the Brits to recover their sovereignty, I would lose my smpathy for the Irish people, proud and contumacious, who are also massively Euroskeptical. My favourite countr outside of mine. The suffering that the English has inflicted upon them throughout centuries is unheard of. First slaves that English sent to America were Irish... 
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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #88 on: June 17, 2016, 12:38 »
    François Asselineau, the only French anti-EU politician had warned (Radio Sputnik 06/09) about the possibility of an Anna Lindh-like tragedy if the polls gave Brexit the lead. Sadly, he proved correct.

    http://www.upr.fr/actualite/europe/assassinat-de-jo-cox-brexit-mise-garde-premonitoire-de-francois-asselineau


    Really when the same event happens twice just before an important European referendum, can it be a coincidence?
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #89 on: June 17, 2016, 12:38 »
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36550304

    Unbelievable, what a tragedy..
    And a bit of context from the same place...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36551777

    The Annah Lindh comparison is worthy of note because, as far as I'm aware, the motive wasn't political, i.e. a prominent pro EU campaigner was murdered because she was prominent, not because she was a pro EU campaigner.

    I am deeply sympathetic to Jo Cox's family and friends but must point out in the context of this thread that she was not a prominent Remain campaigner, and as a new MP in 2015, not a prominent MP outside her constituency. Indeed it is not clear that she was the intended victim and if she was, whether membership of the EU was the motive. Given all that, I'm not sure that this tragedy has any business being in this thread.
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