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Poll

Will the UK leave the EU or not?

Yes and they should
4 (16.7%)
Yes, but they shouldn't
7 (29.2%)
No, but they should
1 (4.2%)
No and they shouldn't
8 (33.3%)
What referendum?
4 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24


Joelsim

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Re: UK Ref
« Reply #90 on: June 17, 2016, 12:42 »
And a bit of context from the same place...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36551777

The Annah Lindh comparison is worthy of note because, as far as I'm aware, the motive wasn't political, i.e. a prominent pro EU campaigner was murdered because she was prominent, not because she was a pro EU campaigner.

I am deeply sympathetic to Jo Cox's family and friends but must point out in the context of this thread that she was not a prominent Remain campaigner, and as a new MP in 2015, not a prominent MP outside her constituency. Indeed it is not clear that she was the intended victim and if she was, whether membership of the EU was the motive. Given all that, I'm not sure that this tragedy has any business being in this thread.

A tragedy borne from the toxic hate-filled rhetoric of the far right. If these guys are given the go-ahead then expect much much more from their disgusting followers. Trumpian.



 
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #91 on: June 17, 2016, 12:48 »
    A tragedy borne from the toxic hate-filled rhetoric of the far right. If these guys are given the go-ahead then expect much much more from their disgusting followers. Trumpian.
    The only hate-filled rhetoric in this thread is coming from you. Should you be held to account for the murder of Pym Fortuyn?

    And in other news...

    LONDON (Reuters) - Sterling rose half a percent in early London trading on Friday and the euro added to gains in the past 24 hours on expectations that the killing of a pro-EU British MP may alter the balance of opinion in Britain's referendum on EU membership.

    Speculation was rife among traders after the murder of Jo Cox on Thursday that Prime Minister David Cameron might push back the vote due to take place on June 23.

    There has been no such signal from Downing Street, but either way some traders think the incident will turn the tide of public opinion after a series of polls showed the "Leave" campaign moving ahead.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #92 on: June 18, 2016, 08:27 »
    I think I've changed my mind about border control. I think we should close our borders completely now, for about a year. With any luck, that will stop the England fans coming back. I also think the French people should make it very clear that the English hooligans (and of course they will assume that all England fans are hooligans) aren't welcome there. So eventually all the England fans will end up sitting in makeshift accommodation in Calais waiting for their applications for citizenship to be processed.

    Refugees? Why yes; I'd never thought of it like that. They'll be refugees. And then of course we can all point out that a large number of them are young men and not women or children, and speculate about how they're only coming here to spread their intolerance and violence throughout our otherwise peaceful and civilised society. And this time the point will be valid.

    The other thing about these hooligans, of course, is that the large buildings in which they worship and in which their faith in their violent and divisive beliefs are intensified are everywhere in Britain now. So where are the campaigns to stop more football stadia being built?

    Wait; this isn't fair. Most football fans are perfectly nice, decent, peaceful folk. Some of my best friends go to football matches. We can't be blaming the sport of football for what is obviously a bunch of violent arseholes looking for an excuse. What sort of idiot would see a small number of violent arseholes and assume that the entire culture they claim to represent is to blame?
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #93 on: June 18, 2016, 17:25 »
    If you're still undecided about voting, be sure that if you vote Leave you will be voting us into the longest, deepest, darkest recession ever.

    Source: IMF
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  • Archieboy

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #94 on: June 20, 2016, 13:50 »
    Joel have you made your mind up. yet which way to vote, if not
    Go on Facebook and find Professor Michael Dougan, hê is A well respected EU law expert who has put A little video out there to convince the undecided


    Needless to say I got bored and didn't watch it all
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #95 on: June 20, 2016, 13:54 »
    Joel have you made your mind up. yet which way to vote, if not
    Go on Facebook and find Professor Michael Dougan, hê is A well respected EU law expert who has put A little video out there to convince the undecided


    Needless to say I got bored and didn't watch it all

    Ha! Yes I have decided Archie.

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  • mudplugger

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #96 on: June 20, 2016, 16:47 »
    Joel have you made your mind up. yet which way to vote, if not
    Go on Facebook and find Professor Michael Dougan, hê is A well respected EU law expert who has put A little video out there to convince the undecided


    Needless to say I got bored and didn't watch it all

    I have not watched it either, but as he holds a Jean Monnet Chair which is funded by the EU, I suspect he is not recommending out. :D
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  • Archieboy

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #97 on: June 20, 2016, 17:47 »
    Wouldnt be much call for his lectures/courses at Liverpool Uni either.
    Not going to talk himself out of a job.
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #98 on: June 20, 2016, 18:17 »
    Wouldnt be much call for his lectures/courses at Liverpool Uni either.
    Not going to talk himself out of a job.

    I would actually think if the UK were to leave the EU there would probably be more call for them over the next few years. There will be a whole lot of legal arguments relating to any agreements made as part of the UK leaving.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #99 on: June 21, 2016, 13:06 »
    Wouldnt be much call for his lectures/courses at Liverpool Uni either.
    Not going to talk himself out of a job.

    To be honest if there is a Brexit he and people like him will be gaining a lot of work.

    Also @mudplugger, if you think that way you can trust nothing from either side in this debate (now, it has become clear in this debate that you can't because they are both lying about a bunch of stuff) Because even the Leave campaigners have gotten money from the EU for something at some time. Just look at Farage he got a MEP salary at one point.

    Still talking with people in academics, at least quite a few Eu ones I know are looking at ways to get out of the UK, even if they vote to remain. As long as there is a high level of out-votes a lot no longer feel welcome anymore and want to get out of the UK as soon as possible. (and for full disclosure, this is my own opinion as well) This entire debate has severely damaged the image of the UK within the eyes of many Europeans
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  • stereojet

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #100 on: June 21, 2016, 16:49 »
    I'd echo that. I work in academia and one of my colleagues has been subjected to a whole host of vile racist and misogynist abuse for arguing the case to remain. She's not alone among the people I know to be seriously considering leaving because of the toxicity of the campaign and what it's revealing about popular attitudes in this country.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #101 on: June 22, 2016, 13:01 »
    I'd echo that. I work in academia and one of my colleagues has been subjected to a whole host of vile racist and misogynist abuse for arguing the case to remain. She's not alone among the people I know to be seriously considering leaving because of the toxicity of the campaign and what it's revealing about popular attitudes in this country.

    Yep, I've found the last couple of weeks worrying, depressing and stressful. Some people are an absolute disgrace.

    On a lighter note.

    https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/745357713480220672
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #102 on: June 22, 2016, 13:05 »
    I'd echo that. I work in academia and one of my colleagues has been subjected to a whole host of vile racist and misogynist abuse for arguing the case to remain. She's not alone among the people I know to be seriously considering leaving because of the toxicity of the campaign and what it's revealing about popular attitudes in this country.
    I find that very surprising. Academia is about as right-on liberal/left as it's possible to be in this country, apart from the BBC of course. Racist and misogynistic abuse is probably the only sackable offence. While gross incompetence, fraud and lack of ability are not only accepted but often rewarded.
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  • Joelsim

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    Archieboy

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #104 on: June 22, 2016, 13:56 »
    But the word's don't fit the blokes mouth, so whos words are they???2
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #105 on: June 22, 2016, 14:03 »
    To be honest if there is a Brexit he and people like him will be gaining a lot of work.

    Also @mudplugger, if you think that way you can trust nothing from either side in this debate (now, it has become clear in this debate that you can't because they are both lying about a bunch of stuff) Because even the Leave campaigners have gotten money from the EU for something at some time. Just look at Farage he got a MEP salary at one point.

    Still talking with people in academics, at least quite a few Eu ones I know are looking at ways to get out of the UK, even if they vote to remain. As long as there is a high level of out-votes a lot no longer feel welcome anymore and want to get out of the UK as soon as possible. (and for full disclosure, this is my own opinion as well) This entire debate has severely damaged the image of the UK within the eyes of many Europeans
    What I'm struggling with here is why you are taking this so personally. This is about where political decisions are made that affect this country. One side wants that to be in Britain, the other side wants that to be somewhere else. I don't get why you feel you've got any stake in it either way.

    Except of course your stated desire for a federal Europe. And here, I'll acknowledge that were you British, your reason for wanting to remain would be perfectly sound. But you're not, so why do you care if Britain is part of a federal Europe? A situation that would happen far more easily without Britain. We are the biggest obstacle to that happening, so why aren't you desperately hoping we leave? Even when you say you want Britain to suffer if they leave, it sounds upside down. Why aren't you hoping that the EU is more successful?

    You seem to me to be disappointed with a country that has voted in Centre, Centre-Right or Right Wing governments for 40 odd years. UKIP received 4m votes at the last election, almost half that of the Labour party. The EU has never been popular here, tolerated but disliked. What exactly did you expect from us, a complete personality transformation? Are you sure your reaction isn't due to cultural unawareness? like Brits trying to score drugs and prostitutes in rural Holland.

    Brits who want to remain but don't want to be part of a United States of Europe are in for some very nasty shocks in the coming months. It all reminds me of the Iraq war. Eventually non-federalist remainers will realise that they had a choice to make; but the opportunity to so will be long gone.



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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #106 on: June 22, 2016, 14:46 »
    What I'm struggling with here is why you are taking this so personally. This is about where political decisions are made that affect this country. One side wants that to be in Britain, the other side wants that to be somewhere else. I don't get why you feel you've got any stake in it either way.

    Except of course your stated desire for a federal Europe. And here, I'll acknowledge that were you British, your reason for wanting to remain would be perfectly sound. But you're not, so why do you care if Britain is part of a federal Europe? A situation that would happen far more easily without Britain. We are the biggest obstacle to that happening, so why aren't you desperately hoping we leave? Even when you say you want Britain to suffer if they leave, it sounds upside down. Why aren't you hoping that the EU is more successful?

    You seem to me to be disappointed with a country that has voted in Centre, Centre-Right or Right Wing governments for 40 odd years. UKIP received 4m votes at the last election, almost half that of the Labour party. The EU has never been popular here, tolerated but disliked. What exactly did you expect from us, a complete personality transformation? Are you sure your reaction isn't due to cultural unawareness? like Brits trying to score drugs and prostitutes in rural Holland.

    Brits who want to remain but don't want to be part of a United States of Europe are in for some very nasty shocks in the coming months. It all reminds me of the Iraq war. Eventually non-federalist remainers will realise that they had a choice to make; but the opportunity to so will be long gone.

    It's because he's looked at the pros and cons Capt.

    It's a choice between voting for intolerance, division and recession versus a vote for unity and a bucket-load more prosperity.

    It's a complete and utter no-brainer.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #107 on: June 22, 2016, 14:56 »
    I also disagree about the UK being ambivalent to the EU, there are a huge number of us who are proud to be part of it and wouldn't want it any other way.

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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #108 on: June 22, 2016, 14:58 »
    What I'm struggling with here is why you are taking this so personally. This is about where political decisions are made that affect this country. One side wants that to be in Britain, the other side wants that to be somewhere else. I don't get why you feel you've got any stake in it either way.

    Except of course your stated desire for a federal Europe. And here, I'll acknowledge that were you British, your reason for wanting to remain would be perfectly sound. But you're not, so why do you care if Britain is part of a federal Europe? A situation that would happen far more easily without Britain. We are the biggest obstacle to that happening, so why aren't you desperately hoping we leave? Even when you say you want Britain to suffer if they leave, it sounds upside down. Why aren't you hoping that the EU is more successful?

    You seem to me to be disappointed with a country that has voted in Centre, Centre-Right or Right Wing governments for 40 odd years. UKIP received 4m votes at the last election, almost half that of the Labour party. The EU has never been popular here, tolerated but disliked. What exactly did you expect from us, a complete personality transformation? Are you sure your reaction isn't due to cultural unawareness? like Brits trying to score drugs and prostitutes in rural Holland.

    Brits who want to remain but don't want to be part of a United States of Europe are in for some very nasty shocks in the coming months. It all reminds me of the Iraq war. Eventually non-federalist remainers will realise that they had a choice to make; but the opportunity to so will be long gone.

    You want to know why I take this so personal? Because I am an EU immigrant in this country. And I am not the only one. But I am being portrayed as a potential rapist, benefit seeker who is taking away all your jobs. I care because i am here, if I wasn't here I would want the UK to get out, just so the rest of the EU can get on with it and integrate more fully. I have never truly been a fan of the UK in the EU with it's special status. Fine if you dislike the EU, I don't care, but at least try to make it so that you treat humans as humans and not as inhuman scum who are trying to destroy your country. I have been just as critical of this type of thinking in other countries I've lived and have stated as such many times, even on this forum. However in those cases it did not appear as though half of the country thought that way. I am in no way a leftist, if anything I would be centre-right. But this entire referendum has brought out the worst in people. Like I said, I don't want to stay in a place that perceives me and my fellow man in this manner and for this reason i hope beyond hope that these xenophobic fear-mongering is not as effective as I fear it might be. I take it so serious because I and every other EU citizen in the UK is being treated like a second class citizen bend on destroying your great england. For a large part the debate and the reason why many people appear to vote have nothing to do with where political decisions are made, but with plain xenophobia and racism. Now keep in mind I'm not saying that is the case for you or for anyone on this forum, but for many, perhaps even a majority of the leave voters this is the case. I've got a stake in it because I live in the UK, because I am one of those that are attacked. I don't mind really if you leave, but at least leave on the correct arguments, leave on rationality or perhaps even emotion, but emotion about the right things. I can understand wanting to vote out of the EU for 'sovereignty' sake, but this debate has jsut shown a major racist side of the UK which i do not feel comfortable with and it makes me want to leave, even if the UK stays in the EU, as long as remain does not win convincingly and exit gains almost 50% of the vote, in my mind this means that at least around 30% of the UK citizen do not want EU immigrants here, and that is not a comfortable thought to have. No, it might not be the case that it's 30%, even if almost 50% vote leave, but the way this debate has been waged, certainly comes across to me and many of the EU citizen I know here as though at least half of the leave voters are xenophobic against EU citizens
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  • Slapshot

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #109 on: June 22, 2016, 15:38 »
    Hmm... I lived in Gütersloh in Germany for 4 years in the nineties, it was the home of Miele the white good companies. On one of the drags through town their shiny new factory sat on the left, gym, pool, restaurants everything the factory workers could want, only problem with this was that it was for German workers only. On the opposite side of the road the old factory, built in the 50's sat staffed only by immigrants.

    I travel through France fairly regularly and the almost "ghettoisation" of some parts of the big cities still bothers me, drive into Toulouse from the Blagnac side and like the shells on an onion you can see what almost looks like segregation created by the roads. Now i agree that a lot of groups want to live in the same groups, Chinatowns, Arab areas etc etc but it looks bad form the outside.

    I don't like the xenophobic label, i don't like the way that many ordinary people have been labelled as such to suit a campaign, vote out you're racist, my son called me that on Sunday. I'm not; I've been to court to prove it and that I'm not sexist either!!

    Unless some one can convice me otherwise between now and me visiting a polling booth tomorrow i'll likely vote leave, over the last 40 years of life I've seen the good and the bad of things as the years progressed and personally think the rise of the Common Market or whatever they call it now is about to hit freefall whether we stay in or not. Budget deficits in member states, huge pension holes in others ... it's unsustainable politicians and economists cross europe have said that for years.

    Part of the issue of this whole campaign has been the lies and spin of both sides, none of us really know what will happen mind you if they told the truth chance are we'd be in exactly the same position!!..... 

    The good thing I suppose is that we're getting a say in the matter rather thn the cretins in Westminster angling themselves along which ever ticket is most likely to benefit their pockets most.... as long as people get out and vote you can accept the result but if only 50% of the populous vote and you get a tight result, the questions will just continue... democracy in action I suppose!!

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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #110 on: June 22, 2016, 15:46 »
    Hmm... I lived in Gütersloh in Germany for 4 years in the nineties, it was the home of Miele the white good companies. On one of the drags through town their shiny new factory sat on the left, gym, pool, restaurants everything the factory workers could want, only problem with this was that it was for German workers only. On the opposite side of the road the old factory, built in the 50's sat staffed only by immigrants.

    I travel through France fairly regularly and the almost "ghettoisation" of some parts of the big cities still bothers me, drive into Toulouse from the Blagnac side and like the shells on an onion you can see what almost looks like segregation created by the roads. Now i agree that a lot of groups want to live in the same groups, Chinatowns, Arab areas etc etc but it looks bad form the outside.

    I don't like the xenophobic label, i don't like the way that many ordinary people have been labelled as such to suit a campaign, vote out you're racist, my son called me that on Sunday. I'm not; I've been to court to prove it and that I'm not sexist either!!

    Unless some one can convice me otherwise between now and me visiting a polling booth tomorrow i'll likely vote leave, over the last 40 years of life I've seen the good and the bad of things as the years progressed and personally think the rise of the Common Market or whatever they call it now is about to hit freefall whether we stay in or not. Budget deficits in member states, huge pension holes in others ... it's unsustainable politicians and economists cross europe have said that for years.

    Part of the issue of this whole campaign has been the lies and spin of both sides, none of us really know what will happen mind you if they told the truth chance are we'd be in exactly the same position!!..... 

    The good thing I suppose is that we're getting a say in the matter rather thn the cretins in Westminster angling themselves along which ever ticket is most likely to benefit their pockets most.... as long as people get out and vote you can accept the result but if only 50% of the populous vote and you get a tight result, the questions will just continue... democracy in action I suppose!!

    The campaign has been xenophobic to the extreme, I've been absolutely disgusted by it.

    As Billy Bragg stated last week. "Not all Leave voters are racists, but all racists are Leave voters."

    Your son is no doubt wrong calling you that, but you can see his frustration about stifling his opportunities if you vote to leave. The young are 75/25 in favour of being part of the EU.

    We saw what happened as Leave gained some points last week as the markets went haywire, £100bn knocked off shares in 4 days. The 'experts' are almost unanimously in favour of staying, and that's for a reason.

    Read that Soros article I posted, love him or loathe him, he is very rarely wrong. Big business is already making contingency plans to shift elsewhere.

    Please don't vote Leave, it'd be like a cyclist wanting to lose weight so he can climb better do so by cutting a leg off.



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  • Slapshot

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #111 on: June 22, 2016, 15:50 »

    Please don't vote Leave, it'd be like a cyclist wanting to lose weight so he can climb better do so by cutting a leg off.

    Now that I can live with !!

    The boy... he's screwed anyway, he's a radiographer trying very hard to move to Canada, 80% of what he does and says are specifically designed to irritate and wind up his parents... :lol :lol
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #112 on: June 22, 2016, 15:54 »
    Now that I can live with !!

    The boy... he's screwed anyway, he's a radiographer trying very hard to move to Canada, 80% of what he does and says are specifically designed to irritate and wind up his parents... :lol :lol

    Aren't all young people like that  :-x :angel

    Also like I said I did not want to call you or anyone a racist or a xenophobe, but just the way the referendum campaigning went just in many cases has come across as pleading to the lower instincts of people
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #113 on: June 22, 2016, 16:10 »
    You want to know why I take this so personal? Because I am an EU immigrant in this country. And I am not the only one. But I am being portrayed as a potential rapist, benefit seeker who is taking away all your jobs. I care because i am here, if I wasn't here I would want the UK to get out, just so the rest of the EU can get on with it and integrate more fully. I have never truly been a fan of the UK in the EU with it's special status. Fine if you dislike the EU, I don't care, but at least try to make it so that you treat humans as humans and not as inhuman scum who are trying to destroy your country. I have been just as critical of this type of thinking in other countries I've lived and have stated as such many times, even on this forum. However in those cases it did not appear as though half of the country thought that way. I am in no way a leftist, if anything I would be centre-right. But this entire referendum has brought out the worst in people. Like I said, I don't want to stay in a place that perceives me and my fellow man in this manner and for this reason i hope beyond hope that these xenophobic fear-mongering is not as effective as I fear it might be. I take it so serious because I and every other EU citizen in the UK is being treated like a second class citizen bend on destroying your great england. For a large part the debate and the reason why many people appear to vote have nothing to do with where political decisions are made, but with plain xenophobia and racism. Now keep in mind I'm not saying that is the case for you or for anyone on this forum, but for many, perhaps even a majority of the leave voters this is the case. I've got a stake in it because I live in the UK, because I am one of those that are attacked. I don't mind really if you leave, but at least leave on the correct arguments, leave on rationality or perhaps even emotion, but emotion about the right things. I can understand wanting to vote out of the EU for 'sovereignty' sake, but this debate has jsut shown a major racist side of the UK which i do not feel comfortable with and it makes me want to leave, even if the UK stays in the EU, as long as remain does not win convincingly and exit gains almost 50% of the vote, in my mind this means that at least around 30% of the UK citizen do not want EU immigrants here, and that is not a comfortable thought to have. No, it might not be the case that it's 30%, even if almost 50% vote leave, but the way this debate has been waged, certainly comes across to me and many of the EU citizen I know here as though at least half of the leave voters are xenophobic against EU citizens
    Very eloquently put.

    I will answer with two points:

    Firstly, that the immigration only became an issue very late on in the debate, for months it rolled along with one side claiming doom and despair if we left and the other claiming that the grass would be greener. Neither could get in a telling blow and we had a Leave vote of about 38%. Then in late May, net immigration figures showed a sudden rise to 330,000, despite Cameron's election pledge to reduce it to the '10s of Thousands'. Suddenly there was a shift in the polling, but only by 7-10 %, and the remain side had a problem with a story they couldn't defend. Until they initiated the 'concerns about immigration = racist xenophobe' story that got real traction especially with the tragic, but incredibly convenient cold-blooded slaughter, of an obscure pro-remain MP. So I'd take issue with your feeling that a huge proportion of the population were influenced by the immigration issue.

    The second point is that having the power to do something is totally different to exercising it. Fear of the abuse of power in a democratic country is hardly flattering to its people. So one solution is simply to remove the power to create your own legislation as democratically voted for by the people. We will have imposed someone else's view of what human rights we should have, what emissions our vehicles should have and who can come into our country. Wanting to decide these things for ourselves doesn't make us hateful people. Assuming that if we could make these decisions, we would do it 'wrongly' says more about those doing the assuming than it does anybody else.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #114 on: June 22, 2016, 16:28 »
    Very eloquently put.

    I will answer with two points:

    Firstly, that the immigration only became an issue very late on in the debate, for months it rolled along with one side claiming doom and despair if we left and the other claiming that the grass would be greener. Neither could get in a telling blow and we had a Leave vote of about 38%. Then in late May, net immigration figures showed a sudden rise to 330,000, despite Cameron's election pledge to reduce it to the '10s of Thousands'. Suddenly there was a shift in the polling, but only by 7-10 %, and the remain side had a problem with a story they couldn't defend. Until they initiated the 'concerns about immigration = racist xenophobe' story that got real traction especially with the tragic, but incredibly convenient cold-blooded slaughter, of an obscure pro-remain MP. So I'd take issue with your feeling that a huge proportion of the population were influenced by the immigration issue.

    The second point is that having the power to do something is totally different to exercising it. Fear of the abuse of power in a democratic country is hardly flattering to its people. So one solution is simply to remove the power to create your own legislation as democratically voted for by the people. We will have imposed someone else's view of what human rights we should have, what emissions our vehicles should have and who can come into our country. Wanting to decide these things for ourselves doesn't make us hateful people. Assuming that if we could make these decisions, we would do it 'wrongly' says more about those doing the assuming than it does anybody else.

    I'm not going to comment on the first part because if you don't see the manner in which the leave campaign has been xenophobic there is no way i can get you to see that. It is not an argument, it is clear from the leave campaigning, especially by UKIP. If you don't see it that way, I say you are willfully blind, but let's just agree that we have differing views on that regard.

    On the second part, fine if you believe that. In my opinion this is not the case, but if you feel strongly in that way, certainly you should vote leave. This was not what that last post of mine was about and I do not see it that way. Especially the idea that legislative acts of the EU are someone else's view imposed on your country. But again that has nothing to do with the post you quoted, it has nothing to do with why I take this so personal. Still if that is your argument to leave, in my view you are misguided, but at least it's an argument you can make

    And I do not really like the sarcastic put down at the start. You asked me why I took it personal, so I put my personal opinion there. I did not try to convince anyone or to craft some form of great statements, I just gave my opinions and emotions.
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  • Ram

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #115 on: June 22, 2016, 16:28 »
    I don't want to get too involved in this debate so will just ask one question. If a European in the UK feels as if he's viewed with suspicion now, isn't that the same with every non European in the EU? Particularly one not from a developed part of the world.
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  • barrus

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #116 on: June 22, 2016, 16:31 »
    I don't want to get too involved in this debate so will just ask one question. If a European in the UK feels as if he's viewed with suspicion now, isn't that the same with every non European in the EU? Particularly one not from a developed part of the world.

    Yes, in a way it is. And that is what I have been disgusted by in many European countries and have stated often as being a bad thing.
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  • Ram

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #117 on: June 22, 2016, 16:35 »
    Fair enough, cheers. Fwiw, my own view verges more to the be careful about mass immigration. So it was a genuine question.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #118 on: June 22, 2016, 16:53 »
    4/113 was the number of EU laws in the last parliamentary term, and funnily enough the EU laws are usually pretty sound and humane, more so than our own politicians.

    Anyway as barrus says, if you can't see the revoltingly xenophobic nature of the Leave campaign then you are willfully ignoring it. I'm ashamed.

     
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: UK Ref
    « Reply #119 on: June 22, 2016, 19:50 »
    I'm not going to comment on the first part because if you don't see the manner in which the leave campaign has been xenophobic there is no way i can get you to see that. It is not an argument, it is clear from the leave campaigning, especially by UKIP. If you don't see it that way, I say you are willfully blind, but let's just agree that we have differing views on that regard.

    On the second part, fine if you believe that. In my opinion this is not the case, but if you feel strongly in that way, certainly you should vote leave. This was not what that last post of mine was about and I do not see it that way. Especially the idea that legislative acts of the EU are someone else's view imposed on your country. But again that has nothing to do with the post you quoted, it has nothing to do with why I take this so personal. Still if that is your argument to leave, in my view you are misguided, but at least it's an argument you can make
    No, I'm saying that the debate wasn't centred around immigration until the end of May. Individual campaigners like Nigel Farage may have been banging that particular drum earlier but it wasn't central to the national debate - as it became later, to my dismay.

    Yes, it is to do with your posts. Wanting to have the ability to deport someone if they were a rapist is not the same as treating everyone as if they were potential rapists. When talking about big intangible ideas like nationhood, sovereignty, national identity and mass migration, how is it possible to avoid talking in terms that don't relate to people on an individual level? Like being a child while your parents are arguing over custody in front of you; there are some things it's better to simply tune out until they're resolved.
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