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Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

Larri Nov 12, 2014

just some guy

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Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
« Reply #122 on: September 27, 2016, 08:49 »
Walsh  :lol :lol :lol

yeah, he seems to feel "let down"... we may read a bit more critical articles again over the next weeks I guess

https://twitter.com/DavidWalshST/status/780383396677713920
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    just some guy

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #123 on: September 27, 2016, 08:53 »
    yeah, he seems to feel "let down"... we may read a bit more critical articles again over the next weeks I guess

    https://twitter.com/DavidWalshST/status/780383396677713920

    If there are more TUEs of similar vein that are made public about sky it might be the tipping point
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  • just some guy

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    just some guy

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    vayerism

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #126 on: September 27, 2016, 09:30 »
    If you want my opinion on the matter, you are making a tempest in a teapot. I happen to be a Dumoulin fan, and I think calling Dumoulin out is still validated in this case. I could understand an objection, should MV have gone on about the topic, but as MV's post was rather understated to begin with, it seems to me your objections appear more defensive and less justified. He got in one, you got in one, good time to drop it.

    Are you serious? Hardly. It seems to me that Fancy Bears, (Apt29B, wasn't it?) have quite lost. At least insofar as their objectives. I will say they HAVE accomplished something that, in retrospect, is an excellent blow in favor of the anti-doping battle: transparency. The UCI or WADA should learn a lessan, and make the TUEs so open ALL the time. It certainly leaves a lot less room for doubt to grow.

    Yes, I am.

    Fancy bears exposed the long presumed TUE abuse of PEDs, they have removed the clean status of countless athletes. And forced Team sky to make another (likely to be broken promise).

    How can you say "they lost" Have you seen the interviews, they have exposed countless competitors for the drug taking athletes that they are. WADA look ridiculous and complicit.

    We have seen
     
    Backdated TUEs
    Unsigned TUEs
    Taken before authorised TUEs

    They have shown the whole show to be wrecked, broken and corrupt.

    "lost"? - have you been paying attention?
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #127 on: September 27, 2016, 11:07 »
     Not trying to deflect the debate away from Sky in anyway, shape or form but Callum Skinner has certainly gone the extra mile that I think folks now expect, if not demand:-

    The article:-

    http://www.scotsman.com/sport/cycling/callum-skinner-i-want-to-prove-to-people-my-asthma-is-real-1-4241059

    His medical records, which due to my own moral misgivings, won't read:-

    http://www.callumskinner.com/blog/2016/9/26/medical-records

    Not that this has changed the public perception one iota, if the single comment posted under the article is a reflection of the masses mood.

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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #128 on: September 27, 2016, 11:23 »
    It's over for Sky, they have further leaks hanging over their heads, if they move today and try to diminish it. and then more files are released which show further use of corto before key races. They are FUBARED, they have no moves left. They can't go after Wiggins, because he can end them, and they can't just let it go



    In short

    Fancy bears win.
    Didn't Froome's leaked TUEs already demonstrate that he didn't use the same pre-race preparation? Can Sky have a team-wide doping policy if their top riders have taken different paths with respect to TUEs? Possibly, but it makes it a lot less likely in my eyes.

    In short

    Fancy Bears have won this round on points but has by no means landed a telling blow.
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #129 on: September 27, 2016, 11:57 »
    Froomes TUes show Cortosteroids, being used on the eve of races as well, so its the same behaviour albeit with slightly different drugs.

    This is a system where they can't even get the dates right on the form. Which doesn't matter, because they didn't think it would ever be public.

    It shows that no one is following the procedures that are put into place to support TUEs, which in turns make you question every TUE.

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #131 on: September 27, 2016, 12:57 »
    If Fancybears aim is to expose that many other athletes are cheating as well as Russian athletes ... then yeah they have proven their point.

    We all knew that the TUE system was being used in that manner.   This is just actually proving it.


    As for Wiggo ... seriously, how stupid does Brailsford/Sky think the public is?
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #132 on: September 27, 2016, 13:30 »
    Froomes TUes show Cortosteroids, being used on the eve of races as well, so its the same behaviour albeit with slightly different drugs.

    This is a system where they can't even get the dates right on the form. Which doesn't matter, because they didn't think it would ever be public.

    It shows that no one is following the procedures that are put into place to support TUEs, which in turns make you question every TUE.
    The reason we're focused on Wiggins in this thread is because he injected just before his season's objectives three years running. Romandie and the Dauphine? Clearly not like with like. That's the difference.
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  • Kiwirider

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #133 on: September 27, 2016, 16:34 »

    As for Wiggo ... seriously, how stupid does Brailsford/Sky think the public is?

    Considering that is the same duo who claimed a "marginal gain" from riders putting an unspecified "optimal mileage" on their chains before the chains were taken off and bagged for use in important races I'd say that they think that the public are utter and complete, knuckle dragging, sh*t-for-brains morons ...

    ... and judging by the naiive, sycophantic drivel that comes out in support of how wonderful and clean Team Marginal Gains are, I'd say that their assessment of a sizeable portion of that public probably isn't too far wrong ...
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  • hiero

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #134 on: September 27, 2016, 19:20 »
    Didn't Froome's leaked TUEs already demonstrate that he didn't use the same pre-race preparation? Can Sky have a team-wide doping policy if their top riders have taken different paths with respect to TUEs? Possibly, but it makes it a lot less likely in my eyes.

    In short

    Fancy Bears have won this round on points but has by no means landed a telling blow.

    I don't even think they've won this round, on points or in any manner. All they've done is expose the use (or abuse) of the TUE system - but there is nothing here that I've seen that even remotely approaches the type of blatant abuse we saw in the LA era. Remember the post dated TUE for steroid cream? Maybe there is some more serious abuse among the lesser known athletes, but all we've seen so far is legitimate TUE use - even if the "legitimate" is on slightly shaky ground.

    Fancy Bears set out to prove that the rest of the peloton was as dodgy as the current Russian doping scandal, and it still seems to me that they have done quite the opposite. In addition, didn't one of us, in this very forum, determine that at least one TUE had been altered to make it appear more damaging? Doesn't look good, that. That tells me that Fancy Bears knows that what they are finding is weak stuff indeed.

    We've been saying for the past few years that we think the peloton is up to something - and the GOOD thing about this Fancy Bears release is now we know what this something is. Or, at least, one part of the something. I think the transparency Fancy Bears has brought is great - and it should be made standard practice. But I've said that before, probably in this thread. But in martial art terms, they haven't won any rounds. They've managed to get in a couple of jabs and put the peloton on the defensive, but not by much, and nothing close to a knockdown or even a stunner.

    If Fancybears aim is to expose that many other athletes are cheating as well as Russian athletes ... then yeah they have proven their point.

    We all knew that the TUE system was being used in that manner.   This is just actually proving it.


    As for Wiggo ... seriously, how stupid does Brailsford/Sky think the public is?


    I can't agree that they have proven their point - as you say yourself - they are using the TUE system. That is NOT cheating. We do not like it - not one of us does. But it is not, in these cases, cheating. In the EPO era, it was cheating, because riders who had NO legitimate reason were using drugs strictly to enhance performance. Wiggins, Froome, and Canc (and Callum Skinner) at least have legitimate medical rationale for the drugs they used. So far as I can see, the Russians were actually cheating. That puts things on a different level - and Fancy Bears have proved nothing.

    We can argue that the specific TUEs were used with bad intentions - which would qualify as abuse - when one stretches the application of a legitimate use to the point that they gain some physical advantage. But to get there, we have to judge that athlete's intentions at the time, I think.

    Perhaps those arguing that the use of corticosteroids is forming a devious pattern are correct. I am not yet convinced, so I'll sit back and watch the feathers fly a little longer.
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  • « Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 19:34 by hiero »
    Ubi est ignis

    hiero

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #135 on: September 27, 2016, 19:53 »
    https://twitter.com/DavidWalshST/status/780662435594301440

     :lol :lol

    Walsh  :lol :lol :lol

    Speaking of Walsh - didn't he promise an article on the topic in the last Sunday Times? I can't find it.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #136 on: September 27, 2016, 20:31 »
    Speaking of Walsh - didn't he promise an article on the topic in the last Sunday Times? I can't find it.

     It's in there but it's basically just a timeline of the last week. Talks about ethical lines and whatnot, but in the end says they didn't break any rules.
    Hardly earth shattering.

     Oh unless you think that Astana tapping up somebody on the Mount Tiede hotel booking staff to warn them when the dope testers were coming is of any interest.
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  • AG

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #137 on: September 28, 2016, 00:57 »
    dont get me wrong Hiero - I agree.  The Russian athlete situation is appalling ...


    But to my mind, the situation with abusing TUE's is almost as bad.  Lying and cheating your way to getting medical approval to use a drug to treat a condition you dont have to gain an performance advantage is just as bad as not gaining medical approval for it.

    there is a grey area ... but the situation with Wiggo is way beyond the grey zone
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  • just some guy

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    hiero

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #139 on: September 28, 2016, 18:15 »
    dont get me wrong Hiero - I agree.  The Russian athlete situation is appalling ...


    But to my mind, the situation with abusing TUE's is almost as bad. Lying and cheating your way to getting medical approval to use a drug to treat a condition you dont have to gain an performance advantage is just as bad as not gaining medical approval for it.

    there is a grey area ... but the situation with Wiggo is way beyond the grey zone

    I quite agree with your statement (as bolded). However, I don't think Wiggo fits in that category. If I ever turn about and think that he does, then I could agree that Fancy Bears have actually uncovered wrongdoing.

    Maybe Wiggo is beyond the grey zone - I don't think so yet, but I'm watching to see how things develop. I can't imagine that this is all over just yet.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #140 on: September 29, 2016, 01:50 »
    Wiggins, Froome, and Canc at least have legitimate medical rationale for the drugs they used.

    They do? How could you possibly know this? We have no idea if their claims are legitimate, i.e. do they really suffer from those conditions?

    I'm not sure if you're giving them the benefit of the doubt or not.

    On paper, their reasons for applying for these TUEs would seem to be more legitimate than riders of the past who used EPO (or other products) solely as PEDs, without ever pretending otherwise. Is that what you're insinuating? That because there is a theoretical possibility that the products they have applied for are necessary to counteract genuine physical ailments as is allowed by the current WADA/UCI protocols?

    Or are you simply taking them at their word that this is the case?

    History has given us absolutely no reason whatsoever to trust elite athletes when it comes to their explanations of products or methods used either in preparation, during, or after competition. I see no reason to start believing them now.
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #141 on: September 29, 2016, 09:24 »
    PED use and health have had a relationship, since well, HRT became vogue, so I guess that's Blood bags.

    I think it was Pepe that said to Hamilton "this is for your health" when giving him testosterone, Bonar claimed that taking hormones was simply because the level were "sub optimal". you could even make a decent "keeping you level" argument for blood doping, in fact hinualt did!

    I think the "legitimate medical condition" argument has run it course, because we are seeing athletes being given the most potent, strongest, most performance enhancing drugs to counteract their "aliments"

    I'll focus on the three earlier in thread

    Luigi - Bee stings - given IV corticosteroids three days before the veulta, Now IF he went into shock (I don't know, that he did or didn't). Its a reasonable treatment, but he should not be riding the veulta. it sucks, but it is ultimately fair.

    Froome - Corticosteroids x2 - these are drugs for which the course will be longer than race, also what exactly is wrong is day Nurse and an inhaler?

    I can make arguments around the shocking lack of accuracy on the form, the confusion over the dates and the fact that both were signed off by only zorzoli.

    But ultimately, they were sick

    I think they (more Froome) took advantage of a condition to take PEDS. That's the grey area. But these guys were both sick and suffering. My argument here is, don't take corticosteroids to ride. If you need them, go home and Callum Skinner agrees.

    Now Wiggins.

    Wiggins wasn't sick, at all, he had used salbutamol to 4th/3rd in 09 and was having the year of his life without Kenacort in 2011. He had no symptoms that would warrant this treatment and  the examination that "proved he needed" such treatment (02/07 came after the treatment had been administrated. The drug was taken (29th) before it was authorised (30th)

    Now this could be a mistake, it could be backdated or finally it could have followed the emergency TUE procedure.

    We see the emergency procedure for Mo Farah and Luigi, drugs administrated in an emergency situation. TUE granted afterwards, because there wasn't time before. I have absolutely no problem with this.

    Only Wiggins wasn't an emergency.

    So its an error that is repeated several times..... or?
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  • « Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 09:51 by vayerism »

    just some guy

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    just some guy

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #144 on: September 29, 2016, 13:17 »

    Wiggins wasn't sick, at all, he had used salbutamol to 4th/3rd in 09 and was having the year of his life without Kenacort in 2011. He had no symptoms that would warrant this treatment and the examination that "proved he needed" such treatment (02/07 came after the treatment had been administrated. The drug was taken (29th) before it was authorised (30th)



     I'd just feel I ought to point out, that while this date does indeed appear on the form, it is a near certainty to be a mistake.
    Why?
    It would mean that Wiggins saw his specialist, (possibly in Bolton? ) who then performed an endoscopy, the same day that he was riding stage 1 of the Tour de France.
    That started on the l'île de Noirmoutier, too.

    Other than that, I agree with much of what you say, if not that Froome and Wiggins shared the same raison d'etre.
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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #145 on: September 29, 2016, 14:56 »
    I had missed Salzwedel's comment on this...

    https://twitter.com/euroschulle/status/780745693963124737

    not much of a surprise, given his past
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #146 on: September 29, 2016, 15:22 »
    I take that on board MV.

    However

    The date the specialist examination is given as 02/07, even if that's wrong. It's completely unacceptable. It's at best wilfully misleading.

    The specialist examination is referenced again for the 2012 TUE date given 30/06 the same day as the TUE was granted (30/06) and the drug was given (29/06)

    There is no guarantee that the TUE was given authorised due to any specialist diagnosis nor that the drug was given on the basis of that diagnosis. A drug taken without medical instruction and authorised after its use. Is not a TUE.

    In short.

    Its a complete and utter flip up.

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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #147 on: September 29, 2016, 15:45 »
    The specialist examination is referenced again for the 2012 TUE date given 30/06 the same day as the TUE was granted (30/06) and the drug was given (29/06)
    Dude, it's just a wrong date. Zorzoli was a busy man! :D
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    vayerism

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #148 on: September 29, 2016, 15:48 »
    Zorzoli is a busy man

    Ha! With all these TUEs I'm surprised he had time to run through the changes in the tests with the teams, highlighting on each riders' previous data, what would trigger a positive!
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  • hiero

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #149 on: September 29, 2016, 18:28 »
    See? I told ya the discussion wasn't over yet!    :lol

    Cheers, all.

    And for the fourth or fifth time, a tip o' the hat to fancy bears for providing the transparency that Sky and UCI and WADA should have done.
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