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Mellow Velo

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Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2016, 15:53 »
In a statement issued to Press Association Sport, a spokesman for Wiggins said:

 
Quote
"Brad's passing comment regarding needles in the 2012 book referred to the historic and illegal practice of intravenous injections of performance-enhancing substances, which was the subject of a law change by (world cycling's governing body) the UCI in 2011.


"The triamcinolone injection that is referred to in the WADA leaks is an intramuscular treatment for asthma and is fully approved by the sport's governing bodies. Brad stands by his comment concerning the use of illegal intravenous needle injections."

 Would I be right in saying the only thing that stops this being a vaccination is that asthma isn't a contagious disease?
 I'm really not sure.

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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    LukasCPH

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #31 on: September 17, 2016, 19:52 »
    A 'normal' doctor (who has also worked as race doctor within cycling) offers his opinion on the leaked TUEs and their content, from a medical standpoint:
    http://www.stickybottle.com/coaching/medical-opinion-why-details-of-pros-leaked-tues-are-worrying/
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    Joelsim

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #32 on: September 17, 2016, 19:56 »
    A 'normal' doctor (who has also worked as race doctor within cycling) offers his opinion on the leaked TUEs and their content, from a medical standpoint:
    http://www.stickybottle.com/coaching/medical-opinion-why-details-of-pros-leaked-tues-are-worrying/


    "It seems they are being repeatedly used – and approved for use by the World cycling body the UCI – for much less serious episodes."

    All 13 of them.

     :shh

    To be honest I'm far more concerned with where and with whom Mo Farah chooses to do his training.
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  • Kiwirider

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #33 on: September 17, 2016, 21:02 »

    To be honest I'm far more concerned with where and with whom Mo Farah chooses to do his training.

    Of course you are - but we all know that's only because the two riders in question are from your beloved Sky ...   :luv :luv :luv :luv
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #34 on: September 17, 2016, 21:30 »
    Of course you are - but we all know that's only because the two riders in question are from your beloved Sky ...   :luv :luv :luv :luv

     Hardly the most constructive contribution to this debate from someone who has recently complained about a drop in standards.

     Except for the most rabid of the anti-Sky faction, it pretty much been accepted that only one of the two riders merits scrutiny.
    The other seems to have benefited from the expose.
     

     There is certainly valid debate as to whether TUEs for asthma, or indeed any medical condition, should be issued: and if so, under what circumstances.
     
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  • Kiwirider

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #35 on: September 17, 2016, 21:44 »
    Hardly the most constructive contribution to this debate from someone who has recently complained about a drop in standards.


    Call it a pre-emptive strike to try to stop Joelsim taking this thread down his typical path and killing any form of discussion whenever anything that is vaguely negative against Sky, Wiggins or Froome comes out ...


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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #36 on: September 17, 2016, 22:32 »
    Call it a pre-emptive strike to try to stop Joelsim taking this thread down his typical path and killing any form of discussion whenever anything that is vaguely negative against Sky, Wiggins or Froome comes out ...

     The stickybottle article link Lukas posted is well worth a read.
    It certainly highlights the potential problems associated with an over reliance upon TUEs and makes a strong case for their strict regulation.
     It does so in an impartial manner.
    The UCI in the past have had a casual attitude towards issuing TUEs, but in recent years they appear to have adopted a far stricter approach.
     Joel's figure of 13, being the recorded number of TUEs issued last year, expressed how the article's correct claim for the past, might not hold true for the present: a fair comment, imo.

     The bottom line on Wiggins is that his asthma is well documented and TUE paperwork is in order.
    Whether or not one considers the treatment appropriate, or it's timing coincidental is another matter.
    Certainly that is open to an individual's interpretation.
    Continue to watch this space, perhaps?
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  • Kiwirider

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #38 on: September 17, 2016, 23:08 »
    The stickybottle article link Lukas posted is well worth a read.
    It certainly highlights the potential problems associated with an over reliance upon TUEs and makes a strong case for their strict regulation.
     It does so in an impartial manner.
    The UCI in the past have had a casual attitude towards issuing TUEs, but in recent years they appear to have adopted a far stricter approach.
     Joel's figure of 13, being the recorded number of TUEs issued last year, expressed how the article's correct claim for the past, might not hold true for the present: a fair comment, imo.

    Actually the passage in question isn't about TUEs - it's about the implications of what the author perceives as an over-use of corticosteroids in sport.

    The passage that Joelsim quotes is actually referring to the use of asthma drugs and saying that, in the opinion of the author, they are being drastically over-used.

    The 13 TUE figure and any trend in the numbers of TUEs over the past years is, as others have said, irrelevant. The change to the asthma regs has removed the "need" for TUEs for these drugs - and, again as has been said, they used to cover the vast majority of TUEs.

    And this comment is made without even getting into the huge proportions of athletes from various sports who apparently suffer from EIA - including, according to The Guardian, half of all XC skiers (where we know that oxygen vectors are rife) and 1/3 of all Sky riders ...

    There are definitely factors in there that I would be thinking should be of interest to anyone who takes the time to post here ... wouldn't you agree??

    (I'm in the process of trying to edit up our weekly report with the team on site - challenging when you have Americans trying to write English!! - and also pack to fly back to work for 14 days tomorrow, so please excuse me if I don't engage as fully in this debate as I'd like ... or respond after a significant pause.)
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  • AG

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #39 on: September 18, 2016, 07:03 »
    yep

    its not so much about the athletes 'cheating' as they are obeying the rules ...

    but the rules allow so much in the way of these drugs because of these 'excercise induced ...' conditions - that the rules say you can then 'treat' with otherwise banned substances because its for an 'illness'

    I dont know what the answer is - but clearly the TUE system, and allowing things like cortisone outside of competition is not working.
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  • t-72

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #40 on: September 18, 2016, 07:44 »
    Stupid question: what's EIA? (I think I understand but to be sure...)


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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #41 on: September 18, 2016, 08:23 »
    Actually the passage in question isn't about TUEs - it's about the implications of what the author perceives as an over-use of corticosteroids in sport.

    The passage that Joelsim quotes is actually referring to the use of asthma drugs and saying that, in the opinion of the author, they are being drastically over-used.

    The 13 TUE figure and any trend in the numbers of TUEs over the past years is, as others have said, irrelevant. The change to the asthma regs has removed the "need" for TUEs for these drugs - and, again as has been said, they used to cover the vast majority of TUEs.

    And this comment is made without even getting into the huge proportions of athletes from various sports who apparently suffer from EIA - including, according to The Guardian, half of all XC skiers (where we know that oxygen vectors are rife) and 1/3 of all Sky riders ...

    There are definitely factors in there that I would be thinking should be of interest to anyone who takes the time to post here ... wouldn't you agree??


     I would agree, but limited my response to the UCI's involvement.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #42 on: September 18, 2016, 08:29 »
    yep

    its not so much about the athletes 'cheating' as they are obeying the rules ...

    but the rules allow so much in the way of these drugs because of these 'exercise induced ...' conditions - that the rules say you can then 'treat' with otherwise banned substances because its for an 'illness'

    I dont know what the answer is - but clearly the TUE system, and allowing things like cortisone outside of competition is not working.


    Stupid question: what's EIA? (I think I understand but to be sure...)

    Exercise Induced Asthma.

    Or exercise-induced bronchoconstriction, being it's more precise title.

     Agreed AG.
    A formal system for IC and a lax system for OoC is pretty counter productive.
    Although it is worth noting that in the case of Wiggins's TUEs, they covered out of competition periods.


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  • « Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 08:41 by Mellow Velo »

    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #43 on: September 18, 2016, 09:46 »
    yep

    its not so much about the athletes 'cheating' as they are obeying the rules ...

    but the rules allow so much in the way of these drugs because of these 'excercise induced ...' conditions - that the rules say you can then 'treat' with otherwise banned substances because its for an 'illness'

    I dont know what the answer is - but clearly the TUE system, and allowing things like cortisone outside of competition is not working.
    I thought one of the implications was that you could get a TUE which specified dosage and time frame before a GT, but effectively have a 'get out of jail' card for any level detected over the duration of the event. In other words, what's to stop an athlete taking a much higher dosage over a much longer period than is specified in the TUE?
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #44 on: September 18, 2016, 12:02 »
    Of course you are - but we all know that's only because the two riders in question are from your beloved Sky ...   :luv :luv :luv :luv

    Given I'm not a Sky fan...

    I don't have a favourite team, I have favourite riders, one of whom even rides for Astana!  :shh
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  • Havetts

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #45 on: September 18, 2016, 15:46 »
    http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/jaksche-on-skys-tue-controversy-we-used-the-same-excuse-in-my-era/


    Really good article by Shane Stokes once again. Once again shows that cycling hasnt really changed that much in general as some like to preach.
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  • AG

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #46 on: September 19, 2016, 00:52 »
    yep great summartion by Shane Stokes.

    Cortocosteroids have always been a huge issue - and been regularly abused by a number of cyclists (not just Sky either)
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #47 on: September 19, 2016, 08:04 »
    So the TUEs have been leaked and that's good. very good, I would have preferred a change in policy but maybe this will bring that around.

    What have we learnt?

    A load of athletes take asthma drug (beta 2's) and steroids for what at least on the surface seems like no reason or at least questionable reasons.

    This, in opinion is approved doping, particularly as they seem cyclical i.e. every dauphine, every July, or same month/time period year after year.

    The wiggins one is awful, kenacort is fliped up drug, that has no place in sport, its use would be questioned if you were on a hospital bed. its also right before a grand tour citing a pollen that isn't native to Italy. Its nonsense. utter nonsense.

    However, is this the fault of the athlete?

    The answer can only be no. It's WADA's fault, they are responsible you can say no, it is possible to reject a TUE, which they seemingly rarely do.

    In my opinion WADA have been shown up as the enablers that they are and they need to go.

    Post Merge: September 19, 2016, 08:06
    https://twitter.com/RogerPielkeJr/status/776205509829373952

    They made corto legal out of competition in 2010. That's what you are seeing.
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  • just some guy

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    Joelsim

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #49 on: September 19, 2016, 10:38 »
    It certainly seems to be a loophole that needs to be closed rather than just stopping a rider riding for a week or so.

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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #50 on: September 19, 2016, 11:24 »
    Whilst nothing illegal has been done in this case, the timing of Wiggins' injections immediately before GTs seems somewhat unethical (right up to the line and all that which we all know anyway). The only mitigating factor is that Froome wasn't doing the same thing which indicates that it isn't policy, although we don't know whether it is used OOC.

    However, I don't think this helps Sky in any way, shape or form on their anti-doping stance.

    Not clever.
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #51 on: September 19, 2016, 11:39 »
    You're missing the point. It's not about Wiggins's ethics. Which are obviously shot, nor Team sky's which join them in the toilet. Though decades (the riders) in the sporting environment is likely to leave you with a somewhat coloured view

    Its about WADA.

    Here's how it should go.
    Athlete is sick
    Athlete sees doctor
    Doctor prescribes banned drug
    Application for TUE.
    WADA review the diagnosis and prescription and determine if this is acceptable if they intend to compete. For kencort /oral cortosteroids- no. obviously not, for a ventolin - probably

    They aren't doing that last bit at all. they are just signing off any old sh*t. without question.

    Its actually quite simple, if you are sick enough to need a powerful prescription drug that is also banned (albeit with a few exceptions). you should be no where near a sporting event.

    WADA seem to have forgotten this
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #52 on: September 19, 2016, 11:46 »
    You're missing the point. It's not about Wiggins's ethics. Which are obviously shot, nor Team sky's which join them in the toilet. Though decades (the riders) in the sporting environment is likely to leave you with a somewhat coloured view

    Its about WADA.

    Here's how it should go.
    Athlete is sick
    Athlete sees doctor
    Doctor prescribes banned drug
    Application for TUE.
    WADA review the diagnosis and prescription and determine if this is acceptable if they intend to compete. For kencort /oral cortosteroids- no. obviously not, for a ventolin - probably

    They aren't doing that last bit at all. they are just signing off any old sh*t. without question.

    Its actually quite simple, if you are sick enough to need a powerful prescription drug that is also banned (albeit with a few exceptions). you should be no where near a sporting event.

    WADA seem to have forgotten this

    The issuing of TUEs in cycling is via the UCI only for any riders in the testing pool. Not WADA.

    I'm however, not a big fan of the anti doping system in general especially with Reedie at the helm. As I've mentioned many times WADA needs to be completely independent with no access/discussion/negotiation with any sport governing body or national fed, with complete autonomy to set the rules, but that's another story.

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #53 on: September 19, 2016, 11:48 »
    Since there was only 13 TUEs last year I think it might be better looking at the OOC use of Cortisone myself
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #54 on: September 19, 2016, 11:53 »
    That TUE figure is nonsense, there's a team of type 1 diabetics for flips sake.

    What do the 20 or so guys on Novo Nordisk do share a TUE for insulin between them....
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #55 on: September 19, 2016, 11:57 »
    That TUE figure is nonsense, there's a team of type 1 diabetics for flips sake.

    What do the 20 or so guys on Novo Nordisk do share a TUE for insulin between them....

    had not considered that a very good point -
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  • vayerism

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #56 on: September 19, 2016, 11:58 »
    The issuing of TUEs in cycling is via the UCI only for any riders in the testing pool. Not WADA.

    I'm however, not a big fan of the anti doping system in general especially with Reedie at the helm. As I've mentioned many times WADA needs to be completely independent with no access/discussion/negotiation with any sport governing body or national fed, with complete autonomy to set the rules, but that's another story.

    Quite right.

    Wiggins takes steroids for grand tours - that appears to be the story.

    The story actually is

    WADA allows Wiggins takes steroids for grand tours as much as he likes year after year after year.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #57 on: September 19, 2016, 12:01 »
    That TUE figure is nonsense, there's a team of type 1 diabetics for flips sake.

    What do the 20 or so guys on Novo Nordisk do share a TUE for insulin between them....

    Unless it is new ones and riders like Bobridge and the Novo guys are not counted as they get counted in the 1st year they received the TUE

    I will ask
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  • just some guy

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    LukasCPH

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    Re: Fancy Bear hack on WADA and the TUE debate
    « Reply #59 on: September 19, 2016, 13:02 »
    WADA seem to have forgotten this
    Only it isn't WADA that signs off on TUEs. For cycling, it's the UCI.

    WADA isn't as good as it could be, no doubt about that - but this isn't their fault.
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