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AG

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Rest Day #2: Should Movistar have waited?
« on: May 15, 2017, 03:09 »
Watching at the time, I thought it was all ok (them riding on)

Movistar were riding hard - and had been for some time.  The racing was on and they obviously had a plan.

They didnt attack ferociously .. they just continued at the pace they had been, and went on with the plan.  Quintana needs time on Dumoulin in particular ... and this was obviously a stage that he targeted as being able to do that.  Movistar signalled these intentions with 60km or so to go when they took over at the front, and because of this, riders like Nibali, Kruijswijk, Pozzovivo aand TJVG were dropped ... which IMO would not have happened if Movistar had waited until 5 or 10km to go to attack.

It is very unfortunate for those caught in a crash that was not their fault - but I cant blame Movistar for not wanting to sacrifice their plan and wait. 


Having said that - it was 15 or so to go, with no break up the road.  Movistar could have eased off for a couple of km's to let the crashers back in .... and it probably would not have changed the outcome that much for them.
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  • « Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 09:06 by search »

    FreeWheelin

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    Re: Should Movistar have waited?
    « Reply #1 on: May 15, 2017, 05:40 »
    I'm creating a criteria to which you can rate these situations.

    a) Bad sportsmanship - clearly tacking advantage of the misfortune (not mistakes) of others.
    b) Racing - just do what you are doing.  Also taking advantage of mistakes (such as Kruijswijk's crash last year)
    c) Good sportsmanship - going out of your way to help the less fortunate.  This wins you fans and indebts you to your rivals.

    So, in this situation I say b).  While they ended up getting an advantage of the misfortune of others, this was just a happy bonus (from their perspective) from doing what they were already doing.

    As AG said, they really could have done c) at no real cost to them, but no one can expect or demand that of anyone in professional sport IMO.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Should Movistar have waited?
    « Reply #2 on: May 15, 2017, 06:54 »
    I have not watched the stage But this should they have waited bugs me the answer is always No
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: Should Movistar have waited?
    « Reply #3 on: May 15, 2017, 07:57 »
    I agree, definitely a "no" from me. I was pretty surprised to see Matty White whinging about this publicly tbh
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    Mellow Velo

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    Re: Should Movistar have waited?
    « Reply #4 on: May 15, 2017, 08:10 »
     Absolutely not.
    Besides being daft, it's totally impractical.
    I can only assume that Matt White's comments were born out of frustration and some anger.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Archieboy

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    Re: Should Movistar have waited?
    « Reply #5 on: May 15, 2017, 08:34 »
    Definatley should'nt have waited.
    But Movistar now know what to expect when Quintana has an unfortunate and the likes of Pinot or Steven Crashbike go on the attack.
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    Re: Should Movistar have waited?
    « Reply #6 on: May 15, 2017, 08:44 »
    I can only assume that Matt White's comments were born out of frustration and some anger.

    probably, yes. Would be a bit of a farce otherwise, it's not too long ago that Greenedge (with BMC) kept pushing after a mass crash at a foot of a climb. He probably wasn't complaining back then when Matthews won the stage...
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  • just some guy

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    a very good point
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  • Mellow Velo

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    probably, yes. Would be a bit of a farce otherwise, it's not too long ago that Greenedge (with BMC) kept pushing after a mass crash at a foot of a climb. He probably wasn't complaining back then when Matthews won the stage...

     Selective memory syndrome: not uncommon among DSs. ;)



     What I find even less believable, is the number of people on various forum and comment sections, defending the motorbike's right to park up on the road and blaming the riders for poor bike handling.
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    as I turned this into a rest day thread... here is a week one summary in pictures :)



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  • cj2002

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    It's one of those situations where seeing it repeated endlessly and in slow motion makes the whole thing worse.

    1) Should the bike have been parked there? Clearly no. I was really surprised by Dave Brailsford's "these things happen" answers in interviews after the stage.

    2) Should Movistar (also FDJ, Bahrain and others) have waited? I think this has several sub-questions...
     - Were they aware of what had happened? Because it looked to me like Amador (who was the last man in the train) was beyond Kelderman when he hit the ground. I know there are radios etc., but it would have taken a good few seconds for the team car to have seen what had happened and - crucially for this debate - who was involved, and for them to have relayed that to the team.
     - Did they change their tactics as a result of what happened? No - as AG said, they had been riding hard, and they continued to ride hard. This isn't a case of seeing a rival have a puncture or a dropped chain and decided to attack.
     - Did anyone else try and stop? All the GC rivals were together on time going into the stage, so there was no-one who was going to profit from riding on in the sense of making back time on another rider. So no-one had anything to lose. And yet no-one seemed to stop. There was no Bahrain rider shouting at Movistar to wait. Tom Dumoulin didn't seem angry that he was suddenly chasing on alone. Blaming Movistar just because they were at the head of affairs is short-sighted.
     - Would anyone else have stopped in a similar situation? Switch Movistar and Sky - would Sky have been oh-so-sporting, and allowed Quintana to catch back on? No, of course not.

    Let's refocus on what the hell that motorbike was thinking - yet another accident caused by a motorbike, despite all the talk and pronouncements from Aigle - and let everything else be a racing incident...
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    DJW

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    Agree completely with what's been said above, and that teams can't be expected to wait purely out of generosity....

    However, there are clearly questions of rider safety here, an issue which in other circumstances has often led to collective rider protests. So I guess it would be nice one of these days to see a team say, ok it's a big chance for us but we're not going to take it because there are bigger issues at stake.
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  • just some guy

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    all caught up now

    How good is Disco Tom going
     is he the real deal ?
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    we need to wait for the multi mountain stages to come to a conclusion about that I guess
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Agree completely with what's been said above, and that teams can't be expected to wait purely out of generosity....

    However, there are clearly questions of rider safety here, an issue which in other circumstances has often led to collective rider protests. So I guess it would be nice one of these days to see a team say, ok it's a big chance for us but we're not going to take it because there are bigger issues at stake.
    +1. Can't agree with this enough.

    Maybe what it needs is for riders to show some balls and write off a weekend stage with full TV coverage. Meander along, signing autographs, handing out tat to keep the fans onside.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    all caught up now

    How good is Disco Tom going
     is he the real deal ?

    (Abridged version)
    LM: "How do you feel after that performance, Tom?"
    TD: "I feel like sh*t. (verbatim)
    I've just lost my only mountain helper because of that idiot on a motorbike."
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  • search

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    I'll grab the chance to have a look at the minor classifications as I missed it before the start of the Giro:

    CLASSIFICA MAGLIA CICLAMINO                     
                         
    RANK TEAM NAME POINTS
    1      #quickstep      GAVIRIA Fernando      191   
    2      #trek      STUYVEN Jasper      160   
    3      #lotto      GREIPEL Andre'      129   
    4      #orica      EWAN Caleb      100   
    5      #bora      POSTLBERGER Lukas      98   
    6      #dimension      TEKLEHAIMANOT Daniel      78   
    7      #dimension      SBARAGLI Kristian      76   
    8      #bmc      DILLIER Silvan      68   
    9      #wilier      ZHUPA Eugert      60   
    10      #bora      BENNETT Sam      57

    Gaviria holds the Ciclamino with a healthy advantage with two more sprint stages to come. Question is if he can make it to Milano though in his first Grand Tours and with the tough final week to come. I would give him something like a 50% chance to do so.

    Before the start of the Giro Greipel said he'd try to defend the jersey if he holds it after stage 13. That's very unlikely to be the case though, so he is probably out of it. Ewan as well I guess. And all the Italians are too far back already and not blessed with too much sprinting power this year.

    Styuven on the other hand keeps on collecting points and may fancy another breakaway here and there. I doubt he can win the jersey head to head versus Gaviria, but if the young Colombian struggles to make it to the end, it will probably fall back to him.
             
                
    CLASSIFICA MAGLIA AZZURA                     
                         
    RANK TEAM NAME POINTS
    1      #blue      POLANC Jan      44   
    2      #movistar      QUINTANA Nairo      35   
    3      #fdj      PINOT Thibaut      27   
    4      #dimension      TEKLEHAIMANOT Daniel      23   
    5      #katusha      ZAKARIN Ilnur      19   
    6      #astana      SANCHEZ Luis Leon      18   
    7      #sunweb      DUMOULIN Tom      16   
    8      #dimension      JANSE VAN RENSBURG Jacques      15   
    9      #bardiani      ANDREETTA Simone      15   
    10      #sky      THOMAS Geraint      12

    yeah, well, this is still pretty open. Polanc looked really good yesterday though finishing 14th, ahead of guys like Jungels and Tejay.

    here is how points are allocated and what's still on offer:

    SALITA SCARPONI CIMA COPPI GPM 1a Cat. GPM 2a Cat. GPM 3a Cat. GPM 4a Cat.
    70
    45
    35
    15
    7
    3
    36
    30
    18
    8
    4
    2
    24
    20
    12
    6
    2
    1
    18
    14
    9
    4
    1
    12
    10
    6
    2
    8
    4
    4
    1
    4
    4
    2
    2
    2
    1
    1

    (this year's Cima Coppi is the Passo dello Stelvio and double points will be handed out on the "Salita Scarponi" Passo del Mortirolo)                                    

    STAGE Pt. / Underway Pt. / at Finish
    Stage 10      Foligno - Montefalco (ITT)      0      0
    Stage 11      Firenze - Bagno di Romagna      15 + 7 + 7 + 15      0
    Stage 12      Forlì - Reggio Emilia      15 + 7      0
    Stage 13      Reggio Emilia - Tortona      0      0
    Stage 14      Castellania - Oropa      0      35
    Stage 15      Valdengo - Bergamo      15 + 7      0
    Stage 16      Rovetta - Bormio      70 + 45 + 35      0
    Stage 17      Tirano - Canazei      15 + 15 + 7      0
    Stage 18      Moena - Ortisei/St. Ulrich      35 + 15 + 15 + 7      35
    Stage 19      San Candido/Innichen - Piancavallo      7 + 15      35
    Stage 20      Pordenone - Asiago      35 + 35      0
    Stage 21      Monza - Milano (ITT)      0      0
                      
    TOTAL            439      105

    So with the new double points Scarponi Climb addition (and the Cima Coppi on the same stage), whoever wants to win the jersey surely can't afford to miss the breakaway on Stage 16

                         
    CLASSIFICA MAGLIA BIANCA                     
                         
    RANK TEAM NAME TIME
    1      #white      FORMOLO Davide         
    2      #quickstep      JUNGELS Bob      +0’ 45”   
    3      #uae      POLANC Jan      +02’ 01”   
    4      #orica      YATES Adam      +02’ 04”   
    5      #uae      PETILLI Simone      +05’ 39”   
    6      #uae      CONTI Valerio      +06’ 00”   
    7      #wilier      RODRIGUEZ MARTIN Cristian      +10’ 07”   
    8      #quickstep      DE PLUS Laurens      +14’ 05”   
    9      #ag2r      BIDARD François      +25’ 50”   
    10      #gazprom      FOLIFOROV Alexander      +29’ 12”
                         
    Formolo will probably lose the jersey to Jungels tomorrow, who needs better climbing days than yesterday to be able to defend it though. Yates isn't out of it yes as well if he recovers from his crash. Matt White said #white is a target now for him.
                      
       
    CLASSIFICA WINNING TEAM                     
                         
    RANK TEAM NAME TIME
    1      #movistar      MOVISTAR TEAM         
    2      #astana      ASTANA PRO TEAM      +06’ 15”   
    3      #uae      UAE TEAM EMIRATES      +07’ 57”   
    4      #cannondale      CANNONDALE-DRAPAC PRO C.T.      +10’ 44”   
    5      #fdj      FDJ      +15’ 13”   
    6      #ag2r      AG2R LA MONDIALE      +15’ 59”   
    7      #bahrain      BAHRAIN - MERIDA      +17’ 04”   
    8      #sunweb      TEAM SUNWEB      +20’ 49”   
    9      #bmc      BMC RACING TEAM      +22’ 45”   
    10      #trek      TREK - SEGAFREDO      +26’ 09”

    Movistar looked strong yesterday but it will probably come down to the amount of interest they show in winning the team classification. As long as Quintana and Amador finish up there they should have an advantage, but I wouldn't count out attacking teams like Cannondale or UAE yet, although their losses will probably double up tomorrow in the ITT.


    PREMIO MIGLIOR DISCESISTA

    The much discussed downhill classification was scrapped before the start of the race but initially times were announced to be still published. Unfortunately I can't find those from stage 8 and 9 though.
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  • « Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 12:49 by search »

    Caruut

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    Agree with basically all that's been said here.

    Movistar were pushing hard and continued to do so. No change of tactics to exploit a situation, just that the change of situation made the tactics they had already gone for even more effective. With Pinot and especially Dumo in such good shape Movistar can't just decide to make the climbs easy.

    Another thing to note is that, while we can all agree Thomas put in a heroic ride to finish where he did, it was by no means obvious that was gonna happen in the moments after the crash. His race looked done, he was sitting on the road. I dunno if anyone else caught it but I saw one of the Movistar doms (maybe Rojas, maybe Izaguirre) do a massive double take when Thomas passed him.

    The same applies to Yates too, by the time it was obvious where he was and what was going on, major helpers and minor contenders were already beginning to slide backwards.
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    What I find even less believable, is the number of people on various forum and comment sections, defending the motorbike's right to park up on the road and blaming the riders for poor bike handling.

    I think it was just unfortunate, I wouldn't really put too much blame on anyone. Sure, the police man was at fault, but it's not like he parked his bike in the middle of a tiny, twisty road - it was two-wide, uphill, on a straight. He probably misjudged the size and speed of the peloton at that point of the race. It really shouldn't happen of course, but I can see how it did
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  • just some guy

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    DJW

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    In terms of the effects of yesterday's crash, it looks safe to say (from what is said above) that Sky's GC hopes are gone, and that Thomas / Landa look in doubt even to compete for stages.

    Yates's GC are in shreds, but I think he could still fight back to a fairly respectable position (although certainly not as high as he wants).


    Outside of that, we should see Pinot and Tom overtake Nairo tomorrow I think. That puts a lot of work on Movistar's shoulders. Sure, Nairo is in strong position and Giant have lost Kelderman, but Reichenbach looked good yesterday and without the help of #sky and #orica Movistar will have a lot of work to do.


    Just convincing myself of a reason to keep watching  :cool
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  • LukasCPH

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    Outside of that, we should see Pinot and Tom overtake Nairo tomorrow I think. That puts a lot of work on Movistar's shoulders. Sure, Nairo is in strong position and Giant have lost Kelderman, but Reichenbach looked good yesterday and without the help of #sky and #orica Movistar will have a lot of work to do.
    Tom, definitely. But Pinot? Nairo isn't so very bad in a TT, particularly if it's one with quite a bit of uphill.
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    DJW

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    Tom, definitely. But Pinot? Nairo isn't so very bad in a TT, particularly if it's one with quite a bit of uphill.

    A quick PCS head to head shows that while Thibaut has finished ahead in most ITTs against Quintana, it's only been by small margins, and that he also lost a couple of the lumpier ones, so yes you're right  :lol


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  • AG

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    yep I certainly expect Tom to be in pink after tomorrow ... but I also expect Movistar to take it back on the next mountains.  Just a matter of whether it will be enough
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    Tom, definitely. But Pinot? Nairo isn't so very bad in a TT, particularly if it's one with quite a bit of uphill.

    personally I would rate Pinot as a Top 3 time trialist in this field. Quintana probably Top 10 as well though, if it's not too windy
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  • Mellow Velo

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     Last year, Nibali had an almost identical time loss to that of Adam Yates, with 3 stages left.........
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    PREMIO MIGLIOR DISCESISTA

    The much discussed downhill classification was scrapped before the start of the race but initially times were announced to be still published. Unfortunately I can't find those from stage 8 and 9 though.

    I managed to get hold of them:


    PREMIO MIGLIOR DISCESISTA

    Stage 8: Monte Sant'Angelo - km 12,5

    POS   CONCORRENTE   TEMPO DISTACCO PUNTI
    1. #movistar IZAGUIRRE Gorka    57.106 km/h 13'08.254   8
    2. #gazprom ROVNY Ivan    57.106 km/h 13'08.995 +0'00.741 5
    3. #wilier AMEZQUETA MORENO Julen    56.109 km/h 13'22.199 +0'13.945 3
    4. #ag2r CHEVRIER Clement    56.039 km/h 13'23.651 +0'15.397 2
    5. #bora SELIG Rudiger    55.831 km/h 13'26.342 +0'18.088 1
    6. #ccc PATERSKI Maciej    55.282 km/h 13'34.973 +0'26.719
    7. #ccc OWSIAN Lukasz    55.147 km/h 13'36.629 +0'28.375
    8. #bmc VENTOSO Francisco    55.147 km/h 13'36.844 +0'28.590
    9. #uae MOHORIC Matej    55.012 km/h 13'38.851 +0'30.597
    10. #wilier BUSATO Matteo    54.945 km/h 13'39.112 +0'30.858

    Stage 9: Chieti - km 4,2

    POS   CONCORRENTE   TEMPO DISTACCO PUNTI
    1. #bora PELUCCHI Matteo    64.892 km/h 3'53.684   8
    2. #wilier MARECZKO Jakub    64.067 km/h 3'56.554 +0'02.870 5
    3. #bahrain GASPAROTTO Enrico    62.738 km/h 4'01.933 +0'08.249 3
    4. #cannondale SLAGTER Tom-Jelte    62.479 km/h 4'02.218 +0'08.534 2
    5. #bora SELIG Rudiger    62.479 km/h 4'02.297 +0'08.613 1
    6. #bahrain NIBALI Vincenzo    62.479 km/h 4'02.327 +0'08.643
    7. #bahrain BOARO Manuele    62.479 km/h 4'02.479 +0'08.795
    8. #uae MOHORIC Matej    62.479 km/h 4'02.518 +0'08.834
    9. #movistar IZAGUIRRE Gorka    62.479 km/h 4'02.577 +0'08.893
    10. #bora BENNETT Sam    62.479 km/h 4'02.602 +0'08.918

    Unofficial overall Standings after 2/10 descends:

    POS CONCORRENTE PUNTI
    1.      #movistar   IZAGUIRRE Gorka      8
    1.      #bora   PELUCCHI Matteo      8
    2.      #gazprom   ROVNY Ivan      5
    2.      #wilier   MARECZKO Jakub      5
    3.      #wilier   AMEZQUETA MORENO Julen      3
    3.      #bahrain   GASPAROTTO Enrico      3
    4.      #ag2r   CHEVRIER Clement      2
    4.      #cannondale   SLAGTER Tom-Jelte      2
    4      #bora   SELIG Rudiger      2
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  • « Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 16:14 by search »

    LukasCPH

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    I managed to get hold of them:
    So far, this looks a classification that will be won or lost on pure chance. 10 riders out of 10 possible with points so far.
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    So far, this looks a classification that will be won or lost on pure chance. 10 riders out of 10 possible with points so far.

    well, yeah, the classification does not exist (anymore) anyway. They just took the times and I added the points myself according to the points scheme initially planed
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  • LukasCPH

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    I just realised Rudi Selig was 5th both times. That could be enough to "win" - there are 10 timed descents, right? 10 times 1 point, with the four in front of him changing every day ... :D
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