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Leadbelly

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Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2017, 05:40 »
Katusha's move was to put the pressure on in the technical section with a bit of up and down some distance from the finish. If the speed bumps are large enough, it is possible to discard Kittel (at the price of having to deal with Sagan instead).  A quite short distance after they put the whole team in front, Hollenstein goes down in a roundabout - and the whole team and a few other teams as well. Kristoff didn't go down but punctured. If you are judging Kristoffs potential as a sprinter based on the finish yesterday, you are not going to place the winning bid,  so Kristoff will not be racing for Leadbelly-CottonFields next year, that seems certain  :P

I'd have him in my team[1] ..... at the right price. :P

Yes, you can't base a judgement on one sprint, but dealing with late mechs or losing your train and flying solo is part and parcel of sprinting. Getting some better results in the coming days will give him a stronger bargaining hand in any negotiations.
 1. Crash Bang Wallop is the official name
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  • latino

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #31 on: July 04, 2017, 17:28 »
    Tour de France - Stage 4

    The Good

     - Almost 200km of BOTD again, Van Keirsbulk the only escapee, plenty of TV time for Wanty and sponsors
     - Fight for green still strong, with many contenders (as seen in the intermediate sprint)
     - 1st win in the TdF for Demare, and first french win in this edition
     - Sagan going straight to Team Dimension Data's bus to apologize to Cavendish

    The Bad

     - Very boring and slow stage until the final kms
     - Contador coming in at the end of the pack, he might've crashed along with Geraint Thomas, but I haven't confirmed it yet

    The Ugly

     - 2 more crashes in the final kms (inside last 3km so no lost time for any of the favorites)
     - Cavendish crashing hard against barriers, Degenkolb and Swift crashing into Cavendish
     - Very injured Cavendish (on the way to the hospital, updates to follow)
     - Greipel no longer friends with Sagan (reportedly elbowing him in the previous stage)
     - Controversy around the penalty for Sagan, DQ or no DQ, final decision is relegation to last of the group he arrived in (115th)

    "After reviewing video footage of the sprint, UCI race commissaires relegated Sagan to last place in the group he finished with, and so finished in 115th place on the stage."
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-sagan-sparks-cavendish-crash-during-vittel-sprint/

    In my opinion the elbow was a reflex when Sagan was surprised with Cavendish being right there.
    It might even have been a matter of trying to recover his balance when Cavendish leaned on Sagan.
    Not trying to defend Sagan blindly, just my take on the matter.
    Ultimately I hope Cavendish's injuries aren't that bad, and that he can recover quickly.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #32 on: July 04, 2017, 18:08 »
     I put my observation of the crash in the stage thread, but yeah.

    Ugly for me besides the crashes, but also Kirby's utterly clueless commentary on them.
    Screaming about Cav losing his lead out train and nothing about the yellow jersey crashing and hardly a word about the final barrier encounter.

    The good, was I also had ITV 4 and David Millar's astute spot that Cav had left a gap which forced others to fill and the fact that the yellow jersey had gone down.

    The bad: Sagan's action resulting in him being way, way adrift in the green jersey competition.
    He now has a bigger hill to climb than the GC boys, tomorrow.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    killswitch

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #33 on: July 04, 2017, 18:47 »
    The Good

    Demare winning a stage and now leading the green jersey competition could convince Madiot and the sponsors to let Pinot do the Giro again next year.  :cool
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  • Joelsim: The huge winner today - Landa.
    just some guy: Aye he marginal gained the flip out of it

    latino

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #34 on: July 04, 2017, 19:18 »
    Update

    The Ugly

     - Shocked by Sagan's DQ, not deserving at all in my opinion, and just a bad reaction to an ugly crash by Cavendish. If he hadn't crashed, Sagan wouldn't go home. Double standards again...
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  • hiero

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #35 on: July 04, 2017, 20:08 »
    Update

    The Ugly

     - Shocked by Sagan's DQ, not deserving at all in my opinion, and just a bad reaction to an ugly crash by Cavendish. If he hadn't crashed, Sagan wouldn't go home. Double standards again...

    Personally, I think Cav's reaction was pretty understated. There is SOME point to the small gap he left offering an opportunity, but Sagan, without question, really changed his line, and that is a no-no.

    I would have been happy with the relegation, but the DQ is, in my mind, justifiable. It is also, however, VERY unfortunate, as two of my favorite names to watch in the Tour are now gone.

    Sad. 
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  • Eeyore sez . . .

    t-72

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #36 on: July 04, 2017, 21:54 »
    I'd have him in my team[1] ..... at the right price. :P

    Yes, you can't base a judgement on one sprint, but dealing with late mechs or losing your train and flying solo is part and parcel of sprinting. Getting some better results in the coming days will give him a stronger bargaining hand in any negotiations.
     1. Crash Bang Wallop is the official name

    Just leaving a message here for the Sports Manager at Crash Bang Wallops: he hasn't signed anywhere yet but the price has come up a little since the last time we had a chat :P
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  • t-72

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #37 on: July 04, 2017, 21:58 »
    Update

    The Ugly

     - Shocked by Sagan's DQ, not deserving at all in my opinion, and just a bad reaction to an ugly crash by Cavendish. If he hadn't crashed, Sagan wouldn't go home. Double standards again...

    In Norway there are two channels broadcasting, TV2 commentaries said quite immediately on seeing the replay: That looks like a disqualification for Sagan.
    Interestingly, the Eurosport commentaries said the opposite, the jury's response was way too strict.

    Both teams feature earlier TdF stage winners, but the former sprinter is in the Eurosport crew.

    EDIT: personal opinion, I think I saw #cofidis Bouhanni disqualified for a similar move in Paris Nice some year (or was that just a de-placement?[1]
     1.   (or whatever that is called in english)
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #38 on: July 04, 2017, 22:10 »
    Finger now being pointed at Sagan as the cause of the first crash.
    Avondetappe had the overhead camera in slow motion.
    Basically, he was coming through a gap between two FDJ riders and the gap closed. He put out a hand to move the rider on his right a bit, but the rider on his left went down, almost taking out Demare.
    To me, it was clearly this rider, moving to his right, who caused the crash, (he touches the rear wheel of a Lotto-Soudal rider) but in the current climate......
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  • « Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 22:25 by Mellow Velo »

    DJW

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #39 on: July 04, 2017, 22:26 »
    Update

    The Ugly

     - Shocked by Sagan's DQ, not deserving at all in my opinion, and just a bad reaction to an ugly crash by Cavendish. If he hadn't crashed, Sagan wouldn't go home. Double standards again...


    It was definitely deserving of a demotion and fine imo, but I am surprised by the DQ.
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  • latino

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #40 on: July 04, 2017, 22:37 »

    It was definitely deserving of a demotion and fine imo, but I am surprised by the DQ.

    I agree, demotion and a fine.
    Actually I believe the first penalty was better, relegated to the last position in the group (115th) and 30 seconds.

    I might've overreacted to the jury's decision in the heat of the moment (ranting a little on twitter).
    But I guess I have to accept that Sagan is out of the race and not going to break the green jersey streak record.
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  • latino

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #41 on: July 05, 2017, 18:09 »
    Tour de France - Stage 5

    The Good

     - Gilbert on the attack on his birthday
     - Aru very strong and looking to challenge Froome for the yellow jersey
     - Contador recovered quickly after being dropped (strategy maybe?)
     - Dan Martin a contender
     - Second day in a row with a win by a national champion (Demare, Aru)
     - Sky in yellow for the last 21 days in the TdF (including last year's edition)
     - No crashes or shenanigans :)

    The Bad

     - Quintana dropped on the first attack, Giro probably weighing on his legs, Valverde would've been a great help today
     - Pinot again losing 4 min, probably going to try a stage win later on
     - Fuglsang losing 1 min, definitely not a contender, maybe a stage win or just help for Aru

    The Ugly

     - Sagan fans' rage has calmed down (myself included :P) but still a lot of controversy
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #42 on: July 05, 2017, 21:09 »
     The Ugly

     My Velogames team. :lol

    Poor Esteban Chaves's mind is obviously no longer on the game, since the tragic death of his friend. :(
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  • hiero

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #43 on: July 05, 2017, 21:50 »
    . . .(or was that just a de-placement?[1]
     1.   (or whatever that is called in english)

    I believe the word you seek is "relegation" - moving the rider to last in the stage.
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  • Not My Circus

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #44 on: July 06, 2017, 05:51 »
    The good...
    Aru making it on a climb that well suits his capabilities.
    Martin D and Yates twin
    Pinot chilling it on home territory. He's so going to the Giro again \o/
    The worst has happened, I don't have to feel the awful anxiety any longer

    The Bad...
    Birdsong on a climb that was never really going to suit him. Captaincy wise, what I feared has come to pass. Had they tackled another climb first the diff may not have been so marked. It's too early to make a call until the weekend, but the peaked too early scenario is there. I'm taking taking nothing away from Aru, but I'm sad for Jakob. There's no call to mark him down as a bad rider or climber (see the Ugly)...

    The Ugly...
    Too many days until the Vuelta
    DK press... pack of wolves.


    BTW... this is a great idea for a thread  :cool
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  • « Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 06:10 by Not My Circus »

    Slapshot

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #45 on: July 06, 2017, 09:29 »
    Two days away from the computer....what a two days
    Stage 4
    The Good – nothing 200Km borefest, so poor I went out on the bike guess what I missed!!

    The Bad – The commentary of one C Kirby esq gets worse by the day, do Eurosport not realise he’s driving people away

    Crashes again, I always find it difficult to put blame on anyone specific at sprints because often it’s a house of cards, one rider does this, the rest have to do that. Demare veered badly, i’d love to know how much that impacted what else happened. Sprints are chaotic, the UCI jury needs to respect that not make summary judgement like they did because Ralf Aldag mouths off like a petulant child.

    The Ugly – Peter Sagan’s DQ has been done ad nauseum now on twitter/Facebook and everywhere else. Personally I think it was wrong the stage DQ was more than enough but the real ugly in the room is the UCI and the commissaires WTF were they thinking, it was a racing incident like many other and worse racing incidents.... they have made a mockery of this entire race.

    Stage 5
    The Good – La Planche is a beautiful place,  Fabio and Dan were brilliant all the rest playing catch up and time loss prevention.  Quintana lost time (I have no time for him as a rider) and Berto did not blow up despite being on a bad day and only lost a few more seconds... roll on the Alps.

    The Bad – Froome in yellow this early, unless he steps up and finds a bucket load of panache this will be a two and a half week borefest with Sky killing off every stage.  BMC’s tactics, wtf?? Were they just being blind stupid or was little Dickie Doors “accidentally” working for Sky, they got a free ride yesterday that’s for sure.

    The Ugly – No Sagan to fire up the break because you could guarantee he’d have been there.  The parcour wasn’t great one wee hill then the finish, they could have thrown another hill before PDBF to spice it up.  Voeckler..... much as I’ve loved his antics over the years this is maybe a tear to far..... has he started to look like Fenella the Kettle Witch from Chorlton and the Wheelies or is it just me....

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  • « Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 17:57 by Slapshot »

    Flo

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #46 on: July 06, 2017, 19:20 »


     :D :D :D
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  • RIP Keith

    latino

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #47 on: July 06, 2017, 19:30 »
    Tour de France - Stage 6

    The Good

     - All sprinters in a straight line :lol let's see how long this lasts
     - Kittel much stronger than rest, even without train
     - Wanty putting a rider in the BotD again, massive effort to appear on TV is working

    The Bad

     - Demare doing a "Cav" and lucky to get away with it :shh no harm, no foul
     - Boring stage again, as expected, until the last kms

    The Ugly

     - Nothing :cool
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  • latino

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #48 on: July 06, 2017, 19:35 »


     :D :D :D

    I love these little stories, they bring humanity to the riders :D

    The "pink whistle" :lol
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  • t-72

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #49 on: July 06, 2017, 21:25 »
    Another twist on the story unfolding:   :)

    https://twitter.com/GreyPea/status/883056701456474112
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  • Slapshot

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #50 on: July 07, 2017, 09:52 »
    Stage 6..... the very best bit wasn't related to the race but the story of Philippa York.... such immense bravery to put her story out there like that. Robert Miller was one of my earliest cycling heros our sport and will always remain so but cycling has been a sadder place without that ability and insight .. Philippa York one of Britains greatest cyclists.

    Anyway Stage 6 ....

    the Good - Marcel Skittels.... just WOW!!

    The Bad - Another 200kms of nothing and one km of action, ASO you need to do better.

    The Ugly - Nothing really... from the highlights it was a nothing stage....bet today won't be much better
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  • latino

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #51 on: July 07, 2017, 19:16 »
    Tour de France - Stage 7

    The Good

     - Amazing heli shots of the final 5km, showing the sprint trains working
     - Kittel recovering again and winning by the smallest margin I've ever seen (check photo finish below)
     - De Gendt has to be the first rider to arrive at the start line, every single day he's out in front at km 0
     - Boasson Hagen almost surprised everyone, so close to winning..

    The Bad

     - Demare, Greipel and Bouhanni behind top 5 at the finish
     - Another boring +200km stage with excitement only in the last 5-10 km

    The Ugly

     - Demare bullying Bouhanni, again :lol
     - Those central road dividers in the final 5km are so dangerous, lucky there were no crashes

    Photo finish:

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  • t-72

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #52 on: July 07, 2017, 22:03 »
    The Ugly

    In the XC skiing world championships in 1980-sometime (I think), a15 km  race was decided by 0.001 second. It could already back then be measured. No big surprise that today, they are able to measure even shorter time intervals, like 0.0003 seconds ( less than a third of the time difference from 1983).  Probably, the decision today was technically correct. But was it fair?

    What followed after the close race in skiing was a big discussion on what a winning margin should be, and what was in practice a dead heat. They concluded that a distance less than what would be observable to the human eye is, for all practical concerns, a dead heat.  For the next version of the event, they set the minimum gap to 0,01 second even if it was possible to measure less.

    I think cycling needs a similar debate. When you can't even separate the winner from number 2 on the finish line photo supplied by the race organization, it gets pretty meaningless to call one of them winner and the other second place finisher. Even if they probably can split them using technical means (however, I have seen more convincing presentations of evidence).



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  • Slapshot

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #53 on: July 08, 2017, 08:43 »
    Stage 7
    The good - Nice sprint at the end and good to see someone get close to Skittles

    The Bad - 200km of nothing....

    The ugly - the result..... that should have been declared a dead heat, race juries and commissaires again, if you can't split them on the photo finish, then leave it as a dead heat. Other than Fabio on PDBF and the Sagan controversy it's been a pretty boring racing week.. as you'd expect from the tour. It's why the Giro will always be the greater race for me, there's rarely a day when nothing happens.
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  • latino

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #54 on: July 08, 2017, 10:38 »
    The Ugly

    In the XC skiing world championships in 1980-sometime (I think), a15 km  race was decided by 0.001 second. It could already back then be measured. No big surprise that today, they are able to measure even shorter time intervals, like 0.0003 seconds ( less than a third of the time difference from 1983).  Probably, the decision today was technically correct. But was it fair?

    What followed after the close race in skiing was a big discussion on what a winning margin should be, and what was in practice a dead heat. They concluded that a distance less than what would be observable to the human eye is, for all practical concerns, a dead heat.  For the next version of the event, they set the minimum gap to 0,01 second even if it was possible to measure less.

    I think cycling needs a similar debate. When you can't even separate the winner from number 2 on the finish line photo supplied by the race organization, it gets pretty meaningless to call one of them winner and the other second place finisher. Even if they probably can split them using technical means (however, I have seen more convincing presentations of evidence).



    I agree, they should've given the win to both.
    If we can't see the difference in the photo finish, then they should be tied, even if the difference is microscopical and they can measure it.
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  • AG

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #55 on: July 08, 2017, 11:34 »
    totally agree - that should have been a tie - they should have both been awarded the win, and split the points for first and second between them for green

     :(
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #56 on: July 08, 2017, 16:07 »
    The Ugly

    In the XC skiing world championships in 1980-sometime (I think), a15 km  race was decided by 0.001 second. It could already back then be measured. No big surprise that today, they are able to measure even shorter time intervals, like 0.0003 seconds ( less than a third of the time difference from 1983).  Probably, the decision today was technically correct. But was it fair?

    What followed after the close race in skiing was a big discussion on what a winning margin should be, and what was in practice a dead heat. They concluded that a distance less than what would be observable to the human eye is, for all practical concerns, a dead heat.  For the next version of the event, they set the minimum gap to 0,01 second even if it was possible to measure less.

    I think cycling needs a similar debate. When you can't even separate the winner from number 2 on the finish line photo supplied by the race organization, it gets pretty meaningless to call one of them winner and the other second place finisher. Even if they probably can split them using technical means (however, I have seen more convincing presentations of evidence).



    I agree that something needs to be clearly defined. If it were a different photo finish provider who is only able to distinguish to less accuracy than those in use this tour it might have been declared a dead heat.
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  • latino

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #57 on: July 08, 2017, 17:24 »
    Tour de France - Stage 8

    The Good

     - The most exciting stage so far, successive attacks from km 0
     - Peloton split in half and a break with 50 riders, not a usual sight but fun to watch
     - Great win by Calmejane, 2nd in a GT, even with cramps inside the last 5 km
     - Calmejane takes the most combative award for the 2nd time (stages 3 and 8) and also white mountain jersey (corrected)
     - Good strategy by Sky to maintain yellow jersey, not panicking
     - Second win by a french rider, usually we have to wait a few days for the first one
     - Contador looking good in the front of the pack

    The Bad

     - BMC's strategy backfired (GVA and Roche) and left Porte alone, very far from the finish
     - Everyone is going to be very tired for tomorrow

    The Ugly

     - Nothing, best stage so far
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  • « Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 18:48 by latino »

    Slapshot

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #58 on: July 08, 2017, 17:49 »
    The really really Good - Cracking stage that's proper bike racing and it was great, exciting from the flag drop till the end..... best tour stage for years

    Congrats to Calmejane he earned that. The emotion at the end between him and Jean-Rene Bernadeau was just brilliant to see in sport that's becoming increasingly sterile.


    The
    slightly Bad - no GC battle, they kept the powder dry for tomorrow, I suspect carnage!

    The very nearly could have been Ugly - CRAMP.... less than 5km away from the end of your first TDF stage win, my heart was in my mouth willing him on.
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  • Armchair Cyclist

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    Re: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
    « Reply #59 on: July 08, 2017, 18:17 »
    Tour de France - Stage 8

    The Good...
     - Calmejane takes the most combative award for the 2nd time (stages 3 and 8) and also white jersey

    I think you meant #kom polka dots, Yates still in  #white.
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