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Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (GP Beghelli)
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2017, 08:36 »
One for the sprinters today...
or not ;). Lulu managed to take it with a late attack, and also a second, bigger group was only caught on the line



if anyone wants to watch, there's the complete re-live on PMG Sport's website
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    Tre Valli Varesine

    Tuesday, October 3rd

    The next race is tomorrow's 97th edition of the Tre Valli Varesini, the third and final race of the Trittico Lombardo. The parcours seems to be more or less the same as last year, with nine laps on the twisty and not too easy circuit from the 2008 World Championships in the end.


    ~pdf roadbook

    Usually it's a very open race where the winner either comes from a late attack or a small sprint

    YEAR 1st 2nd 3rd
    2016      *it COLBRELLI Sonny      *ru ULISSI Diego      *it GAVAZZI Francesco
    2015      *it NIBALI Vincenzo      *ru FIRSANOV Sergey      *it NIZZOLO Giacomo
    2014      *ch ALBASINI Michael      *it COLBRELLI Sonny      *it POZZATO Filippo
    2013      *hr DURASEK Kristijan      *it BONGIORNO Manuel      *ru KOLOBNEV Alexandr
    2012      *ca VEILLEUX David      *it PALINI Andrea      *it DI LUCA Danilo

    There seems to be no provisional start list available yet, but the list of participating teams looks really good:
    • #fdj FDJ
    • #sky Team Sky
    • #astana Astana Pro Team
    • #bora BORA - hansgrohe
    • #trek Trek - Segafredo
    • #dimension Dimension Data
    • #movistar Movistar Team
    • #ag2r AG2R La Mondiale
    • #uae UAE Team Emirates
    • #cannondale Cannondale-Drapac Pro Cycling Team
    • #orica ORICA-Scott
    • #bahrain Bahrain Merida Pro Cycling Team
    • #sunweb Team Sunweb
    • #androni Androni - Sidermec - Bottecchia
    • #bardiani Bardiani - CSF
    • #wilier Wilier Triestina - Selle Italia
    • #fantini Nippo - Vini Fantini
    • #cajarural Caja Rural - Seguros RGA
    • #academy Israel Cycling Academy
    • #gazprom Gazprom-RusVelo
    • #sangemini Sangemini - MG.Kvis
    • #unieuro Unieuro Trevigiani - Hemus 1896
    • #damico d'Amico - Utensilnord
    • #amore Amore & Vita - Selle SMP presented by FONDRIEST
    Same as last year, the race will be live on Rai 3, Eurosport, and others
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    the Italian Cycling Federation lists Sonny Colbrelli as the winner of the Trittico Lombardo in 2016, so although there is basically no information given, it seems like there's still an overall classification for the the two Coppas and Tre Valli, although there are over two weeks between them now.

    Assuming the points scheme is the same as usual, here is what the standings look like at the moment:

    RANK C.A. C.B. Tre Valli TOTAL
    1.      #orica ALBASINI Michael      15pt      8pt                  23pt
    2.      #bahrain COLBRELLI Sonny            15pt                  15pt
    3.      #academy BOIVIN Guillaume            12pt                  12pt
    3.      #fantini CANOLA Marco      12pt                        12pt
    5.      #androni GAVAZZI Francesco      10pt                        10pt
          #uae MODOLO Sacha            10pt      DNS            10pt
    6.      #cannondale BETTIOL Alberto      8pt                        8pt
          #ccc PONZI Simone      6pt            DNS            6pt
    7.      #sky VIVIANI Elia            6pt                  6pt
          #gm TIZZA Marco      5pt            DNS            5pt
          #uae CONSONNI Simone            5pt      DNS            5pt
    8.      #bardiani BARBIN Enrico      4pt                        4pt
          #bora ARCHBOLD Shane            4pt      DNS            4pt
    9.      #academy RÄIM Mihkel            3pt                  3pt
    9.      #sangemini GAFFURINI Nicola      3pt                        3pt
    11.      #cajarural PRADES REVERTER Eduard            2pt                  2pt
          #delko FINETTO Mauro      2pt            DNS            2pt
    13.      #androni BALLERINI Davide            1pt                  1pt
    13.      #cajarural LASTRA MARTINEZ Jonathan      1pt                        1pt

    so it's looking quite good for Albasini to win il diamante, but Colbrelli is not too far behind
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  • « Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 09:57 by search »

    Mellow Velo

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    PCS very slow to come up with a provisional startlist, but there is one available from Cyclingfever.
    And what a star studded one it is, this year.:-

    http://www.cyclingfever.com/editie.html?detp=view&_ap=startlijst&editie_idd=MjgxNTY=

     #sunweb Dumoulin, Kelderman, Matthews,  #bahrain Nibali, Cobrelli,  #sky Kwiatkowski, Poels, Henao, Moscon,  #movistar Quintana,  #orica Albasini,  #cannondale Uran, Formolo, #astana Aru,  #bora Majka,  #ag2r Pozzovivo, Latour, Bakelants,  #uae Ulissi, Costa,  #fdj Pinot.............
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  • « Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 19:03 by Mellow Velo »
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Leadbelly

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    https://twitter.com/Cicloweb_it/status/915267797613195266

    Even with Bernal leaving I think they're still going to have the best squad in 2018 of the Italian PCTs. A Giro invite is well deserved.
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    I missed most of the early parts of the race, but the finish was quite good I must say, when it totally exploded during the final lap. Nibali went clear first, Pinot closed the gap and Geniez came back during the final km and took the win. Ulissi was about to return as well, but didn't have anything left for the sprint.



    Full re-live on PMG Sport

    Albasini came only 10th today, but as no one who was left in contential scored points at all, he thereby easily secured the overall victory of the Trittico Lombardo

    RANK C.A. C.B. Tre Valli TOTAL
    1.      #orica ALBASINI Michael      15pt      8pt      1pt            24pt
    2.      #ag2r GENIEZ Alexandre                  15pt            15pt
    2.      #bahrain COLBRELLI Sonny            15pt                  15pt
    4.      #fdj PINOT Thibaut                  12pt            12pt
    4.      #academy BOIVIN Guillaume            12pt                  12pt
    4.      #fantini CANOLA Marco      12pt                        12pt
    7.      #bahrain NIBALI Vincenzo                  10pt            10pt
    7.      #androni GAVAZZI Francesco      10pt                        10pt
          #uae MODOLO Sacha            10pt      DNS            10pt
    10.      #uae ULISSI Diego                  8pt            8pt
          #cannondale BETTIOL Alberto      8pt                        8pt
    11.      #cannondale VILLELLA Davide                  6pt            6pt
          #ccc PONZI Simone      6pt            DNS            6pt
          #sky VIVIANI Elia            6pt      DNS            6pt
    12.      #sunweb OOMEN Sam                  5pt            5pt
          #gm TIZZA Marco      5pt            DNS            5pt
          #uae CONSONNI Simone            5pt      DNS            5pt
    13.      #sky MOSCON Gianni                  4pt            4pt
    13.      #bardiani BARBIN Enrico      4pt                        4pt
          #bora ARCHBOLD Shane            4pt      DNS            4pt

    he got an award on the podium, so the overall classification definitely still exists - but they don't seem to hand out a diamond anymore

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    Milano-Torino

    Thursday, October 5th

    Next up is Milano Torino tomorrow, the first of the classics organized by RCS. Here is what they said about the race in their press release:

    The first RCS Sport Autumn Classics will be raced on 5 October on an almost identical course to the last edition, when Miguel Angel Lopez won from Michael Woods and Rigoberto Uran. The race starts at San Giuliano Milanese (Sesto Ulteriano) and finishes on the Colle di Superga (climbed twice) after 186km.

    Now at its 98th edition – but older than any other bicycle race, having been first run in 1876 – Milano-Torino is 141 years old. Previously won by many great cycling champions, this race – organised by RCS Sport/La Gazzetta dello Sport – is an international level Classic end of season cycling battle. The last edition was won by Miguel Angel Lopez with an attack on the ramps of the Colle di Superga.


    The route starts in San Giuliano Milanese (Sesto Ulteriano) and rolls across the Po Valley along flat roads, all the way through the Vigevano and Lomellina plains, up to Casale Monferrato, where the race profile becomes wavier, with gentle climbs and descents that lead to the final circuit.
    The route rolls past San Mauro Torinese and all along the Po River in Corso Casale, where it takes in the first climb to the Basilica of Superga. The road then drops down into Rivodora on a technical descent (diverting 600 metres before the finish) that leads back to San Mauro. Here the route goes up again, all the way to the finish, with gradients exceeding 10%. The fixed feed zone is in Casale Monferrato (km 91-94).


    ~pdf roadbook

    The last 5km (to be covered twice, with the exception of the final 600m) start in Torino, in Corso Casale, at the foot of the climb that leads to the Basilica of Superga. The average gradient is 9.1%, with a mid-climb peak of 14% and long stretches with 10% gradients. There is a left-hand U-turn 600m before the finish that leads to a short 8.2% climb, with one last bend 50m before the finish, on 7m wide asphalt road.

    The 19 teams (14 UCI WorldTeams and 5 UCI Professional Continental Teams) of eight riders who will participate in 98th Milano-Torino are:
    • #ag2r AG2R LA MONDIALE (FRA)
    • #astana ASTANA PRO TEAM (KAZ)
    • #bahrain BAHRAIN - MERIDA (BRN)
    • #cannondale CANNONDALE DRAPAC PROFESSIONAL CYCLING TEAM (USA)
    • #fdj FDJ (FRA)
    • #movistar MOVISTAR TEAM (ESP)
    • #orica ORICA - SCOTT (AUS)
    • #quickstep QUICK - STEP FLOORS (BEL)
    • #katusha TEAM KATUSHA ALPECIN (SUI)
    • #jumbo TEAM LOTTO NL - JUMBO (NED)
    • #sky TEAM SKY (GBR)
    • #sunweb TEAM SUNWEB (GER)
    • #trek TREK - SEGAFREDO (USA)
    • #uae UAE TEAM EMIRATES (UAE)
    • #androni ANDRONI GIOCATTOLI - SIDERMEC (ITA)
    • #bardiani BARDIANI CSF (ITA)
    • #cofidis COFIDIS, SOLUTIONS CREDITS (FRA)
    • #nippo NIPPO - VINI FANTINI (ITA)
    • #wilier WILIER TRIESTINA - SELLE ITALIA (ITA)
    ~pdf provisional start list

    Many of the top names in professional cycling will be at the start of the 98th edition of Milano-Torino – the oldest Classic bicycle race, having been first run in 1876. Organised by RCS Sport/La Gazzetta dello Sport, its last edition was won by Miguel Angel Lopez, who will be challenged by, among others, his teammate Fabio Aru (Astana Pro Team), Giro d'Italia winner Tom Dumoulin and Tour de France mountains classification winner Warren Barguil (Team Sunweb), Giro runner-up Nairo Quintana (Movistar Team), Tour de France runner-up Rigoberto Uran (Cannondale Drapac Professional Cycling Team), Milano-Sanremo winner Michal Kwiatkowski and his teammate Mikel Landa (Team Sky) and others including Esteban Chaves and Adam Yates (Orica - Scott), Steven Kruijswijk and Primoz Roglic (Team Lotto NL - Jumbo), Daniel Martin and Julian Alaphilippe (Quick - Step Floors) and Thibaut Pinot (FDJ).

    Live coverage will start at ~14:45 on Eurosport, Rai Sport and others
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  • Not My Circus

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    I missed most of the early parts of the race, but the finish was quite good I must say, when it totally exploded during the final lap. Nibali went clear first, Pinot closed the gap and Geniez came back during the final km and took the win. Ulissi was about to return as well, but didn't have anything left for the sprint.

    I really enjoy watching this race and the way the attacks just keep coming. Nibali's attack was sharp and on point, Pinot was all over his bike to get back to him. The pair worked well together, each taking the front. When I saw Ulissi cross the gap, I'd have laid money on that being the winning move. But I'd discounted Geniez and his perfect timing - as had Pinot I suspect.

    The Reichenbach/Moscon incident left a sour taste. There's a rider that needs to take a good, hard look at himself in the off season. It seems unlikely to me that FDJ would make such a direct accusation unless they were sure. I have a feeling we'll never get to the bottom of this, it seems the incident was not captured either by TV or mobile camera. Neither party have commented directly after Moscon's tweet yesterday hoping Reichenbach was OK. However, this from CN gives a quote from GM to La Gazzetta dello Sport which smacks a little of 'It wasn't me Guv - honest'

    https://twitter.com/Cyclingnewsfeed/status/915513118494687232

    “It’s not true. It’s nothing to do with me. We were on a section of rough road and Reichenbach’s hands slipped from his handlebars. I’ve never spoken to him in my life.”

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  • « Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 11:33 by Not My Circus »

    Echoes

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    I've tended to defend Gianni Moscon thus far since the Tour of Romandy, not because I defend racism, of course (hope you won't accuse me of that) but because I tended to think he unconsciously vented an unfortunate insult in a quick-second reaction after a dangerous manoeuvre by Kevin Reza in the leadout of a sprint, an insult that might not even have a racial connotation (or did it, we do not know).

    But vengeance is something I cannot possibly approve of. Not more than racism but in this case it would be a conscious act on his part. There would be no excuse and it's a very serious/grave affair. It would be so sad and I think we should first keep our good measures as long as we don't have tangible evidence.

    But it would be so dreadful that I don't even wish to think it really happen, to be honest.  :o :(
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  • "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

    Caruut

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    I've tended to defend Gianni Moscon thus far since the Tour of Romandy, not because I defend racism, of course (hope you won't accuse me of that) but because I tended to think he unconsciously vented an unfortunate insult in a quick-second reaction after a dangerous manoeuvre by Kevin Reza in the leadout of a sprint, an insult that might not even have a racial connotation (or did it, we do not know).

    But vengeance is something I cannot possibly approve of. Not more than racism but in this case it would be a conscious act on his part. There would be no excuse and it's a very serious/grave affair. It would be so sad and I think we should first keep our good measures as long as we don't have tangible evidence.

    But it would be so dreadful that I don't even wish to think it really happen, to be honest.  :o :(

    Do we know if there is anything specific he wants vengeance against Reichenbach for?
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    Do we know if there is anything specific he wants vengeance against Reichenbach for?

    Back in April Reichenbach was the one who made in public that Moscon racially abused Kevin Reza
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  • Caruut

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    Back in April Reichenbach was the one who made in public that Moscon racially abused Kevin Reza

    Ah right, did not remember the details beyond it being Reza and Moscon.

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  • Mellow Velo

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     I think I'll reserve judgement until more is known.
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  • t-72

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    I will judge willingly: Milano-Torrino is a perfect Thursday race (wish someone could follow Rigo for a more intense finish though, as in Quickstep could have saved Julian for the final lap. )
    This race's recipe is almost like a Vuelta stage, but better, because one-day races are.

    The Italian fall classics should be cultivated as the fall equivalent of the Belgian spring classics. It is a lot of good one day races!
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    yes, exactly  :)

    ...and tomorrow (not Sunday!) there is Lombardia. Anyone interested to put together a real preview or shall be just squeeze it in here?
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  • Mellow Velo

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    yes, exactly  :)

    ...and tomorrow (not Sunday!) there is Lombardia. Anyone interested to put together a real preview or shall be just squeeze it in here?

    I'm doing a similar thread elsewhere and that lazy lot will be having it in the same thread, like it or not. ;)
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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #46 on: October 06, 2017, 13:35 »
    Giro di Lombardia[1]

    Saturday, October 7th

    On Saturday 7 October, the 111th edition of Il Lombardia will start from Bergamo and arrive in Como after 247km. The "Classic of the Dead Leaves", the last Classic Monument race of the season, will run on the same route as the 2015 edition, when Vincenzo Nibali rode to a solo victory.




    A very selective route with six climbs and 4,000 meters of vertical elevation. The first climb, Colle Gallo, is followed by Colle Brianza; and after the town of Onno the riders climb the Madonna del Ghisallo, followed by the Muro di Sormano. After passing the Colma di Sormano the race descends to Nesso and onto the last two climbs: Civiglio and San Fermo della Battaglia, before reaching the finish line on Lungo Lario Trento e Trieste in Como


    The race sets off from Bergamo, southbound. The route initially leads through the Bergamo plain (over the first 40km), and then up along the Val Cavallina, all the way to Casazza, to tackle the first climb of this race: Colle Gallo (763m). A fast-running descent leads back from Val Seriana to Bergamo; here the route goes back on flat roads and eventually arrives in Brianza. The course passes briefly across Colle Brianza (533m) and descends into Pescate, then heads for Valmadrera and Oggiono. Finally, it rolls past Pusiano and Asso, and drops down into Onno, heading for Bellagio, where the Ghisallo climb (754m) begins. The climb has a maximum 14% gradient, on a wide road, with several hairpins

    The descent runs quickly on long, straight stretches up to Maglio, where the Colma di Sormano climb (1,124m) begins abruptly after a right-hand bend. After some kilometres with moderate gradients, a few hundred metres past Sormano, the route turns left to tackle the Muro di Sormano (2km at a 15% gradient). The road is tight and very steep, and it runs partly through the woods, with very narrow hairpins and sharp gradients exceeding 25% and reaching almost 30% after about 1,000 metres. After clearing the Colma, the road climbs down into Nesso (initially a false-flat drag, followed by a very technical descent with several hairpins on a narrowed roadway). Here, the route takes the coastal road that leads to Como. A harsh climb up to Civiglio follows (614m), with steady 10% gradients (the roadway is markedly narrowed at the top of the climb); the route then drops down, runs through Como again, and then heads for the final climb in San Fermo della Battaglia (397m). There are two feed zones: the first in San Sosimo (km 112-115) and the second in Onno (km 182-185).


    ~pdf roadbook

    The last 10km begin in urban Como and run along wide avenues, up to the railway underpass, where the final climb towards San Fermo della Battaglia begins. The climb has a gradient of nearly 7% (max. 10%) and runs on a narrowed roadway and rough road surface, with several hairpins leading all the way up to the summit (around 5km from the finish). The descent runs along a wide and well-paved road, with two well-lit tunnels and two wide roundabouts, and it ends 1,000m before the finish. One last, wide left-hand bend can be found 600m before the finish. The home straight is on 7m wide asphalt road.

    2015-2014 winners, Vincenzo Nibali (Bahrain - Merida) and Daniel Martin (Quick - Step Floors) are among the prominent names from the 25 teams which appear in the entry list of Il Lombardia. Among the other riders in the provisional entry list, are this year's Giro d'Italia winner Tom Dumoulin and Tour de France mountains classification winner Warren Barguil (Team Sunweb), Giro runner-up Nairo Quintana (Movistar Team), Tour de France runner-up Rigoberto Uran and Vuelta a España mountains classification winner Davide Villella (Cannondale Drapac Professional Cycling Team), Fabio Aru and Miguel Angel Lopez (Astana Pro Team), Mikel Landa and Diego Rosa (Team Sky) and others including Adam Yates (Orica - Scott), Steven Kruijswijk and Primoz Roglic (Team Lotto NL - Jumbo), Thibaut Pinot (FDJ), Julian Alaphilippe and 2009-2010 winner Philippe Gilbert (Quick - Step Floors).

    The 25 teams (18 UCI WorldTeams and 7 UCI Professional Continental Teams) of eight riders who will participate in the 111th Il Lombardia, alongside the potential protagonists, are:
    • #ag2r AG2R LA MONDIALE (FRA) – Pozzovivo, Bakelandts, Vuillermoz
    • #astana ASTANA PRO TEAM (KAZ) – Aru, Lopez, Fuglsang
    • #bahrain BAHRAIN - MERIDA (BRN) Vincenzo Nibali, Pellizotti, Visconti
    • #bmc BMC RACING TEAM (USA) – Van Garderen, Roche, De Marchi
    • #bora BORA - HANSGROHE (GER) – Majka, Konig, Poljanski
    • #cannondale CANNONDALE DRAPAC PROFESSIONAL CYCLING TEAM (USA) – Uran, Villella, Formolo
    • #fdj FDJ (FRA) – Pinot, Roux, Morabito
    • #lotto LOTTO SOUDAL (BEL) – De Gendt, Wellens, Gallopin
    • #movistar MOVISTAR TEAM (ESP) – Nairo Quintana, Amador, Anacona
    • #orica ORICA - SCOTT (AUS) – Chaves, Adam Yates, Albasini
    • #quickstep QUICK - STEP FLOORS (BEL) – Daniel Martin, Gilbert, Alaphilippe
    • #dimension TEAM DIMENSION DATA (RSA) – Cummings, Pauwels, Fraile
    • #katusha TEAM KATUSHA ALPECIN (SUI) – Goncalves, Kiserlovski
    • #jumbo TEAM LOTTO NL - JUMBO (NED) – Roglic, Kruijswijk, Battaglin
    • #sky TEAM SKY (GBR) – Landa, Kwiatkowski, Rosa
    • #sunweb TEAM SUNWEB (GER) – Dumoulin, Barguil, Matthews
    • #trek TREK - SEGAFREDO (USA) – Mollema, Pantano, Felline
    • #uae UAE TEAM EMIRATES (UAE) – Rui Costa, Atapuma, Ulissi
    • #androni ANDRONI GIOCATTOLI - SIDERMEC (ITA) – Bernal, Cattaneo, Frapporti
    • #bardiani BARDIANI CSF (ITA) – Zardini, Ciccone, Barbin
    • #cofidis COFIDIS, SOLUTIONS CREDITS (FRA) – Mate, Bonnafond, Rossetto
    • #direct DIRECT ENERGIE (FRA) – Calmejane, Sicard, Cornu
    • #gazprom GAZPROM - RUSVELO (RUS) – Firsanov, Lagutin, Brutt
    • #nippo NIPPO - VINI FANTINI (ITA) – Cunego, Canola, Santaromita
    • #wilier WILIER TRIESTINA - SELLE ITALIA (ITA) – Koshevoy, Turrin, Godoy
    ~pdf provisional start list

    The race is live on Eurosport and Rai 3 from around ~15:00 cest
     1. Source of all text: RCS press release
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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #47 on: October 06, 2017, 16:09 »
    not that it makes much of a difference, but...

    https://twitter.com/cirogazzetta/status/916299768095223810
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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #48 on: October 07, 2017, 08:43 »
    Stars:

    *be Het Nieuwsblad
    :*:*:*:*:* Nibali
    :*:*:*:* Kwiat, Uran
    :*:*:* Pinot, Alaphilippe, Aru
    :*:* Yates, Moscon, Wellens, Martin
    :* Landa, Visconti, Pozzovivo, Fuglsang, Barguil


    *fr l'Éqiupe
    :*:*:*:*:* Nibali
    :*:*:*:* Ala, Pinot, Uran
    :*:*:* Aru, Kwiat
    :*:* Quintana
    :* Barguil, Rosa, Martin, Yates, Moscon, Gilbert, Villella, Ulissi, Henao, Visconti


    *it Gazzetta
    :*:*:*:*:* Nibali
    :*:*:*:* Uran, Pinot
    :*:*:* Alaphilippe, Aru
    :*:* Poels, Ulissi, Moscon, Villella
    :* Bettiol
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #49 on: October 07, 2017, 21:41 »
    The de Plus crash:-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua-f0ETXO1Q&feature=youtu.be

    There were three more incidents of riders falling into the same ravine.
    Simone Petilli (UAE Team Emirates), Jan Bakelants (AG2R La Mondiale) and Daniel Martinez (Wilier Triestina)

    Where Bakelants bike ended up.



    He has seven rib fractures and compression-fractures of the first lumbar vertebra and the third lumbar vertebra, the latter of which will require additional examination.
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  • AG

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #50 on: October 08, 2017, 00:39 »
    wow - that isnt good

    watching the de plus crash was very scary indeed.  Obviously the others were too - we just didnt see them at the time

    hope he recovers soon
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #51 on: October 08, 2017, 07:41 »
    To complete the race:


    Nibali attacked on the Civiglio climb, only Pinot could follow him there ... but not on the descent. Starting the last hill, San Fermo della Battaglia, with ~10" on Pinot and 47" on the chasing group, the Shark's victory was all but secure, and he could celebrate from a long way out in the streets of Como.
    Pinot was caught by the group behind him on San Fermo, then Alaphilippe made away; the group sprinted for the remaining podium spot.
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    t-72

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #52 on: October 08, 2017, 11:46 »
    A question on the Ld+/Bakelants/Petilli/Martinez crash, this must be one of the worst curves ever, if there were 4 separate incidents in one day. But was it 4 crashes or did the last 3 riders go down in a collective fall?

    It is a bit surprising, this happened on a day with stunning weather and good conditions for cycling. In theory, the 3 last ones shouldn't be linked to Ld+ as both man and bike cleared the road immediately. In practice, I guess there would be chaos pretty quickly and the most likely cause for the later 3 is that there was not enough time gap from Ld+ to the peloton so the site of the accident could be secured, and the peloton was approaching at high speed?



    The Italian race organizers have previously been decent at securing downhill sections, but here there was nothing, so I don't think they saw the disaster potential here. I checked out the site on google earth/streetview and this is understandable. From the top of the Muro de Sormano, the descent isn't too challenging with long straight sections between quite mellow curves. It runs through the village streets of Zelbio but continues in much the same way past the accident site, down towards the lake where it gets steeper and there are 9 switchback turns until the SP44 joins the SS583 at a about 100m from the lake. Those tight 160 degrees turns on a narrow road looks a lot more threatening and might have been the focus  security work.


    3D view showing accident site looking back up valley. Notice the 700-800 m mostly straight section before the accident site.

    The site of the accident is a blind right-hand curve where the road turns into a ravine then crosses the river on a stone bridge. It comes after a 700-800 meters long almost straight section where the racers probably attained high speed. It is conceivable that the blind righ-hand curve came as a surprise to them.


    This Streetview screenshot gives a good impression of what the approaching rider would see.


    When they get a little closer, they can see the road as it exits from the ravine, ahead of them. (Courtesy of te dead tree). This still doesn't look too bad, perhaps it is a little deceiving. However, there is a detail here. Look by the side of the road.


    Flowers, often planted to indicate that this is a site of previous tragedy. From this point, the riders will see just how sharp the curve really is.

    However, it shouldn't. Higher up on the road there is are similar sequences where a long almost straigh section is followed by a blind right-hander into a ravine, but the one where the crash occured is clearly the worst. It should be possible to pick it up if race preparations included a recon ride (by at least one team member) or maybe just google earth/streetview (as shown above). It is essential to know which curves should be approached more careful. Race organizers, teams and racers all should take notice.

    Blind curves, where the trajectory and the exit isn't visible when you are approaching, are notoriously difficult obstacles and tackling them at high speed (clearly above the design limits of the road) will not be possible unless the right preparations are made. Reference is made to Ilnur Zakharin's crash in the Giro in 2016 which featured the same ingredients although likely much higher speeds.

    In alpine ski racing, blind turns are rehearsed for the downhill competetition (minimum 3 times) but for the super-G, rehearsal is not allowed and racers need to spot it. For the Olympic Games in Utah (2002), the Super G featured a blind curve more or less right at the finish line, hidden in a steep section behind a hillcrest. Kjetil Andre Aamodt won: he actuallty braked on the hillcrest and limited time-loss through the curve, where most of his adversaries either had a major (uncontrolled) time loss or simply flunked it, DNF'ing.

    I am highlighting this, blind curves are difficult (and dangerous), even one of the greatest alpine skiers off all times checks his speed before the curve and that is a winning combination. A few hours of google earth/streetview and maybe the odd team-member-on-trial run should be enough to flag the difficult curves on the course. Racers can learn to memorize exactly where this is, and, anyway with today's technology, there should be an alarm sounding from their GPS when they come close. It must be part of preparations, if not the risks are not correctly understood.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #53 on: October 08, 2017, 11:51 »
    I am highlighting this, blind curves are difficult (and dangerous), even one of the greatest alpine skiers off all times checks his speed before the curve and that is a winning combination. A few hours of google earth/streetview and maybe the odd team-member-on-trial run should be enough to flag the difficult curves on the course. Racers can learn to memorize exactly where this is, and, anyway with today's technology, there should be an alarm sounding from their GPS when they come close. It must be part of preparations, if not the risks are not correctly understood.
    The problem is that in pro cycling, ain't nobody got time to put hours into route recon on Google StreetView.
    That won't change until ... well, we've had a number of very bad crashes because of this already[1], and it hasn't changed.
    I don't think it will ever change. :(
     1. Pedro Horrillo is just one example
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  • hiero

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #54 on: October 08, 2017, 13:35 »
    . . .
    I am highlighting this, blind curves are difficult (and dangerous), even one of the greatest alpine skiers off all times checks his speed before the curve and that is a winning combination. A few hours of google earth/streetview and maybe the odd team-member-on-trial run should be enough to flag the difficult curves on the course. Racers can learn to memorize exactly where this is, and, anyway with today's technology, there should be an alarm sounding from their GPS when they come close. It must be part of preparations, if not the risks are not correctly understood.
    The problem is that in pro cycling, ain't nobody got time to put hours into route recon on Google StreetView.
    That won't change until ... well, we've had a number of very bad crashes because of this already[1], and it hasn't changed.
    I don't think it will ever change. :(
     1. Pedro Horrillo is just one example

    Back when I was racing - even when I had ridden a road before - and I KNEW there was a bad corner - unless I knew the road intimately (i.e. a home road) - in the heat of the race - I could not remember exactly where the bad corner was. There would always be, in my mind, "oh, is it here?  No, not this one, not yet." And then it would be there and it would be a bit of a surprise. And I have a much better than average memory. I don't think I'm the only one who had such an issue! :)

    The GPS idea might work tho - an electronic warning. But, you know, in the heat of a race, there are times that even a flagman with a whistle doesn't grab a rider's attention. However, I think on such a corner as this one, a flagman with a whistle might have been what should have been there.

    Nibali said, on his first win here, he did not know the descent. This time he prepped for it. Significant, eh?

    But I really popped in to ask a question. What was with the 8-finger salute at the finish? Or was it 5 and 3? I don't see anything in the news reports of Nibali's victory.
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  • Eeyore sez . . .

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #55 on: October 08, 2017, 13:39 »
    But I really popped in to ask a question. What was with the 8-finger salute at the finish? Or was it 5 and 3? I don't see anything in the news reports of Nibali's victory.

    5 and Zero apparently, as it was his 50th win
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  • Echoes

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #56 on: October 08, 2017, 14:03 »
    So hopefully it becomes a good reason to ditch the Sormano. I've always advocated for it though must be said, that is because I find the ascent "a circus and I don't want to be a part of it". At some point, steep climbs are getting absurd. Classics should be open for the biggest number and in particular for complete riders and not restricted to featherweight climbers. Problem is that then we should avoid bunch sprints or cases like 2011 when Sky chased Nibali for peanuts as Uran was outside the top10 and Zaugg was a surprise winner.  :-x


    Descent of the Civiglio is as I remember often equally as dangerous but how come that that corner had never caused crashes in previous editions and then at least 2 terrible crashes in one edition?


    Finally and most importantly, as much as I have always enjoyed Nibali as a rider, I can never enjoy a victory for the Gulf oil dictators who support terrorism and Israeli colonisation of Palestine. I've lost all the respect I had for Nibali since his transfer. Same goes with Rui Costa and now Dan Martin.

    Hope I'm entitled to say that because last time I talked politics on this part of the forum, I was censored but this time, politics and sport are clearly related and we cannot ignore that Nibali is working for despicable employers !!!  :angry
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  • t-72

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #57 on: October 08, 2017, 20:51 »
    Back when I was racing - even when I had ridden a road before - and I KNEW there was a bad corner - unless I knew the road intimately (i.e. a home road) - in the heat of the race - I could not remember exactly where the bad corner was. There would always be, in my mind, "oh, is it here?  No, not this one, not yet." And then it would be there and it would be a bit of a surprise. And I have a much better than average memory. I don't think I'm the only one who had such an issue! :)

    To visualize (for your inner eye) and memorize a descent to minute detail is actually possible, but it takes training. That's the kind of training you get as a young alpine skier. (Unlike in cycling you getto have  a large number of failures with usually very limited consequences). I don't think road cyclists train like that today, but there is certainly potential to learn from downhill skiing. I am not sure about MTB downhill athletes, they would certainly benefit a lot from it.

    Certainly it is an extra challenge dealing with a group of other cyclists at the same time as negotiating a tricky course. I used to think I would be comfortable cycling downhill (I mean, on my own, I am!) but put me in a peloton - the kind you find in sportives - and  I am easily spooked, especially by other riders looking scared stiff. I am scared what they will do when we come to the difficult curves!

    Laurens de Plus has had a bad run lately in terms of stability, he actually fell in a curve on the climb onto Puddefjordsbroen in the World championship RR. This while he was, as usual, towing the bunch, and it makes me question if he is the kind of rider that empties his tank to the level where dizziness sets in and spatial awareness is a bit compromised. (He did some 150 km on front of the bunch that day...geez!)
    Unintentional fake news, mixed up de + with Vermote!
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  • « Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 21:17 by t-72, Reason: fake news! »

    t-72

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #58 on: October 08, 2017, 20:55 »
    Finally and most importantly, as much as I have always enjoyed Nibali as a rider, I can never enjoy a victory for the Gulf oil dictators who support terrorism and Israeli colonisation of Palestine. I've lost all the respect I had for Nibali since his transfer. Same goes with Rui Costa and now Dan Martin.

    Hope I'm entitled to say that because last time I talked politics on this part of the forum, I was censored but this time, politics and sport are clearly related and we cannot ignore that Nibali is working for despicable employers !!!  :angry

    I am also a bit concerned (to say the least) about the association of sports, especially cycling, to "ill money" - we should have a thread for that somewhere off the races forum....
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: The Italian Autumn Classics (Il Lombardia)
    « Reply #59 on: October 08, 2017, 22:11 »
    I am also a bit concerned (to say the least) about the association of sports, especially cycling, to "ill money" - we should have a thread for that somewhere off the races forum....
    It's the off-season - get thread-creating! ;)

    Laurens de Plus actually fell in a curve on the climb onto Puddefjordsbroen in the World championship RR.
    Wasn't that Vermote?
    Or did de Plus do the same?
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