t-72

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I can't see Ciranda anywhere, hope he is ok - but I think it should be allowed to start discussing todays main event:



I am very excited about the Finestre, where Contador lost mucho time in 2015. It was a climb that dislodged the maglia rosa who was a very good climber, and where Ryder Hesjedal thrived, but Mikel Landa was better than everyone else. The change in road conditions can bring some surprises, although it is early in the race and it may be used to shred domestiques rather than crucify the leaders.

Road conditions though, are very different again, from the 2015 edition. There has been more snow later this year, and it is going to be muddy-heavy, not dry-cant-get-traction roads. I don't have a clue who excels in these conditions, and I don't think anyone has the mountainbike experience that Hesjedal brought. Nevertheless, it can be a bit like cross country, where the technical execution is very important in deciding how long the riders are able to keep the pace.

Clipped from another (excellent) source, the inrng blog discussions:

Quote
Rod May 25, 2018 at 7:54 am

 A group of us rode up the Finestre yesterday. The gravel section is more mud that gravel, it was very heavy going and our wheels were sinking into the ground. I guess because the snow has only just melted and the ground is still sodden. They had a roller going up and down to try and make the best of it.

My guess is the race will be in bits goingup there.

Quote
inrng

The Finestre’s gravel is nice on a dry and sunny day after it has been dry for several days and after a weekend of visitors driving up which helps to compact the surface. But the Alps have had downpours for the last few days which has made the road messy and washed dirt and debris onto it as well as the melting snow mentioned above.

I don't have time to write about MS #mitchelton and their defense plan, but I guess it involves Jack Haigh, who did a relaxed final yesterday. Their nighmare might not be the climbs, but the valleys, as #sky Froome and #sunweb Dumoulin are able to go faster on the flatter sections, provided they get away. Yates may be in good shape if he is allowed to reach Bardonecchia in same group as the other GC contenders, the final climb suits him well.

This is why I hope for massive attacks, early - and why I am especially curious about what will happen in the window of opportunity that now has opened on the Finestre.
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  • Mellow Velo

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     If there isn't a stage thread now, then it would only contain post stage stuff and no.........build up!

    I shall go raid my thread elsewhere.....

    Colle delle Finestre is a steady ascent – steady in the sense that the gradients are hovering between 9 and 10% from bottom to summit. The 18.9 kilometres toil is features 45 hairpins and the second half runs on unpaved roads.






    In 2015, the stage ended in Sestriere, but now it’s just a passage with almost 50 kilometres remaining.

    Remember last time the Giro d’Italia included the Monte Jafferau?
    It was in 2013. With snow falling and temperatures close to zero at the 1,908 metres high finish, the weather was a  TV disaster that day.
    Mauro Santambrogio, yes, him, climbed to victory in the same time as maglia rosa Vincenzo Nibali.
    Fortunately, no one got to see much. :D




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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

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    Astana has quite a good pedigree in turning around a Giro on the final weekend, don't they?! Hope they'll go for #pink today. Should be fun to watch
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    I thought I was at work when they rode this in 2015 but then I seem to remember seeing Contador kind of sitting back a bit and making use of his time gaps.

    I will have to record it today but I'm looking forward to seeing the Finestre. It seems so far from the finish though: I could imagine a lot of GC riders keeping their powder dry but then Yates showed weakness yesterday, so one or two might feel a bit confident.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    should be a fun stage.

    lots of riders who HAVE to do something to save/win/make something of this giro
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  • ciranda

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    SITUATION
    Yesterday's stage moved the gc around somewhat and has made today's stage suddenly seem much more wide open. The strength of Lopez and Dumoulin and the problems for Yates and Pinot means great anticipation for Colle delle Finestre (2178m, 18,5km, 9.2%). The pass is at 73km from the finish with two more mountains left but the Sestriere is so easy that it's hard to see real attacks there. So if someone wants to turn things around it has to be from Finestre. All signs point to Astana in particular and Bahrain-Merida as the teams with ambition and numbers to try something that far from the finish for their leaders Lopez and Pozzovivo. Dumoulin could choose to wait and see if Yates goes into crisis mode again by himself on the last ascent, the difficult but short Monte Jafferau (7,2km, 9.1%). Also SKY is expected to play a part. Maybe the team's leader Froome, cycling's own ODB, will display his crazy drunken style again on the descents. So far Froome doesn't seem to be at the same level as the best uphill though. Pinot and Carapaz looked tired yesterday and not much can be expected from the junior Meintjes types that lurk in the top fifteen. Expect maybe Carlos Betancur who has been ok so far.

    The stage starts from Torino with some initial complicated terrain and then the Colle del Lys (13,9km, 4.3%) at 35km. Not hard at all so it will be possible for other riders than straight climbers to get in the break. Teams with real plans for Finestre will need one or more guys there because any possible help from the top of Finestre will have great value. With Yates' problems yesterday in mind Mitchelton Scott will probably not lead superhard so unless other teams insist on crazy pressure the break should get a significant advantage. The break will be large and likely will include all the strong mountain guys who are not in gc or from the major players teams.

    At least Astana will try to place people in the break. Hope to see guys like Betancur, Ciccone, Hermans, Geniez, Atapuma, Dombrowski, Formolo, Gesink and why not Reichenbach there with the stage win to ride for if they play wisely.





    START/FINISH
    The comune Venaria Reale, population 34 241, is part of greater Torino situated where the rivers Ceronda and Stura di Lanzo meet. Because of the location it has a continental climate with colder winters compared to the city Torino with sometimes much snowfall. The historical centre with a lot of baroque era architecture was built and planned by Amedeo di Castellamonte from 1667 to 1690. For most of the 20th century the economy was based mostly around heavier industry like chemical plants and plastic industries, most importantly the Snia Viscosa factory which employed many people from the Piemonte countryside and finally closed down in the 1980's. Venarias twin cities are Castronovo di Sicilia, Vöhringen in Germany, Vizille in France and Kribi in Cameroun.



    The stage finish is at Monte Jafferau above the village Bardonecchia or Bardonnéche, population 3 150. The comune and village is situated in the high val di Susa at 1312m above sea level. It is the most western comune in Piemonte and the whole country. A number of alpine rivers and streams runs through the place like the Dora Riparia, Valfredda, Frejus, Gauthier, Chatelard, Pian dell'Acqua, Rho and Ribour. In 1872 and 1873 the Rho flooded parts of the old part of the city and destroyed the chapel Santo Sepolcro. A huge artificial lake, the Lago di Rochemolles, controls some of all these waterways for hydroelectricity. The area as a whole is known as the conca di Bardonecchia and has been connected by railway to the major northern cities Torino, Genova and Milano since the late 19th century. It was one of the first major places for alpine sports and a popular summer residence for the wealthy. The first skiing club was founded by the british Smith brothers in 1911. These guys were also famous for doing tricks on a trampoline.

    The name Bardonecchia is thought to mean simply city of the longobards. The first mention is from 726 but the place was populated earlier by celtics and romans. Saracens settled in the tenth century but were chased away and in 1001 the emperor Ottone III named Olderico Manfredi I as signoria della marca di Torino. From then on the place was contested by Savoy and Dauphine until Ghigo VIII agreed to some agreement about something in 1319. Under later french reign fierce battles in the religious wars took place there and as an important, although not the most important, entryway through the mountains and border country it was continually contested by Sardinia and dukes of Savoy until a shortlived first republic of Piemonte was founded in 1798, then it was part of Savoy after the fall of Napoleon in 1814. The railway through Frejus that connected Torino with France was inaugurated in 1871 and with that came government offices and workers like caribinieri, railway and customs staff that helped economic development.



    Previous giros
    Venaria Reale was the starting point for the first stage in the 2011 Giro, a team time trial won by HTC High Road. Bardonecchia has hosted stage finishes three times before, last in 2013 where Mauro Santambrogio won the stage to Jafferau ahead of Vincenzo Nibali. Was that the day it snowed? I don't remember.


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  • « Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 11:32 by ciranda »

    ciranda

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    Sorry for the slowness. I posted what I had anyway and added Mellow Velo's maps.
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  • ciranda

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    (courtesy of Mellow Velo)


    Colle delle Finestre is a steady ascent – steady in the sense that the gradients are hovering between 9 and 10% from bottom to summit. The 18.9 kilometres toil is features 45 hairpins and the second half runs on unpaved roads.






    In 2015, the stage ended in Sestriere, but now it’s just a passage with almost 50 kilometres remaining.

    Remember last time the Giro d’Italia included the Monte Jafferau?
    It was in 2013. With snow falling and temperatures close to zero at the 1,908 metres high finish, the weather was a  TV disaster that day.
    Mauro Santambrogio, yes, him, climbed to victory in the same time as maglia rosa Vincenzo Nibali.
    Fortunately, no one got to see much. :D



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  • LukasCPH

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    Sorry for the slowness. I posted what I had anyway and added Mellow Velo's maps to the other thread.
    And I have now merged the two threads. :)
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    Mellow Velo

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     Note that Re Ciranda's profile, the route has been altered. Nothing to do with any of the climbs, just that they will use the motorway, which is shown as A 32.
     I'm keeping an eye on Rai Sport, as I suspect they might well have some unscheduled coverage.
    They normally do with the biggest mountain stages in week 3.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    killswitch

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    Joelsim: The huge winner today - Landa.
    just some guy: Aye he marginal gained the flip out of it

    Mellow Velo

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    Froome's ascent of Finestre, even will the full Sky lead out was the slowest there has been in a Giro. (2005, 2011, 2015 were all faster)
    Richard Carapaz ascended the Jafferau fastest, but was almost 3 minutes slower than Santambrogio :shh/Nibali in 2014, in appalling conditions.
    Dumoulin and Froome almost identical, but a further 20 odd seconds slower than Carapaz.
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  • M Gee

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    Froome's ascent of Finestre, even will the full Sky lead out was the slowest there has been in a Giro. (2005, 2011, 2015 were all faster)
    Richard Carapaz ascended the Jafferau fastest, but was almost 3 minutes slower than Santambrogio :shh/Nibali in 2014, in appalling conditions.
    Dumoulin and Froome almost identical, but a further 20 odd seconds slower than Carapaz.

    Some folk, like Neal Rogers, are saying that Froome gained a minute on that descent alone. Interesting to find that this was inaccurate.

    Speaking of Nibali, I remember first hearing of him on a stage somewhere. I don't remember the race, nor the year. He descended like a madman, gaining time all the way, and it was a beautiful introduction to him. As a result of that descent, I've always cheered for Nibali. Anybody remember what stage / race I have a picture of in my mind? I think he won the stage - it was a thing of beauty.
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  • Eeyore sez . . .


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    Froome did gain over a minute on the Finestre descent.

    he went over the top with around a 40 second gap to the Dumoulin group, and by time they were going up again he had 2 minutes.

    Dumoulin waited for Reichenbach to join up, and went slower down the descent to allow the group to stay together, but that cost him a fair amount of time.

    Dunno if it was the right move ... I think he would have lost less time alone, but then again the 2 FDJ boys did a fair amount on the front on the next valley so that may have saved Dumo a fair bit of energy/given him a rest so we will never know.


    All up - this was a crazy, crazy stage.

    Who would have thought Froome/Sky would have it in them to do a full out solo effort with 80km and 3 mountains to go  :o
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  • t-72

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    Who would have thought Froome/Sky would have it in them to do a full out solo effort with 80km and 3 mountains to go  :o


    This is why I hope for massive attacks, early - and why I am especially curious about what will happen in the window of opportunity that now has opened on the Finestre. 

    I actually think I heard an interview with Matt White (mitchelton boss), yesterday or before the start today, and he said something like it wasn't rocket science to guess that the attacks will come on the Finestre.

    Then again, I am not a rocket scientist either, and it was possible for me to see that it was probably the best opportunity remaining in the giro. Just one more thing...The Finestre is the most awesome climb in cycling!
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  • Mellow Velo

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     On the subject of where Froome gained time, a pretty reliable bloke elsewhere did this:-

    Quote
    Using Giro live updates, I think this is where Froome took time on Dumoulin:

    Finestere climb 37s
    Finistere descent 1 min 15
    Sestriere climb 49s
    Sestriere descent 25s
    Valley 15s
    Final climb 3s
    So 1 min 40 gained descending

    No wonder Tom Dumoulin has since called Seb Reichenbach "an old lady". :D
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    On the subject of where Froome gained time, a pretty reliable bloke elsewhere did this:-

    No wonder Tom Dumoulin has since called Seb Reichenbach "an old lady". :D
    how much of that was waiting for Reichenbach to catch up? I also never got the impression Reichenbach was doing much more than giving Tom D a rest and ensuring the gap to Pozzovivo. If he lost a minute waiting for someone who wasn't much use, that's the Giro.
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  • t-72

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    A comment to the above..
    If you plan to descend with Pinot, you plan to loose time on the descent.


    Anyway, my point now was...the contador duty...this thread needs some stage results, the time gaps here are crazy but then again it was an exceptional parcours and it was ridden too hard for most from the start across the un-filmed Colle de Lys to the Finestre. I expected fireworks on the Finestre, I am not so surprised Chris Froome delivered it, but I did not expect so many to more or less fall by the wayside already on the lower slopes.  :o I think that was the most remarkable thing about this stage.



    EDIT: bugger, pcs,  this stage actually needs (and deserves) more than top 10 - for historical reference. I plan to dig it up and csv it later!
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  • Leadbelly

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    Finally got round to watching some of this.

    Wee Jimmy Elissonde's role on the stage (and during Trentino) does remind me a bit of Porte back in his Sky days (the lack of height probably reinforces it). Obviously not at quite same level, but he seems able to put in a sustained increase of pace for an not insignificant distance over which Froome can attack.

    Did anybody else notice Rob Hatch in his commentary going all "Pavlov's Dog" with regards to the pronunciation of Jafferau. He couldn't decide whether to go with the Italian or French version and ended up having to tell us both versions virtually every time the name was mentioned.
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  • t-72

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    This excellent illustration was in a tweet in a different discussion, but it wouldn't load and show on all kinds of devices (At least not for me). I am posting it here for reference...original was made by David McCann (tweet further down here..)

    Dumoulin's plan with the chase group only worked well on the lower Sestriere climb but they never got beyond stabilizing the gap for some kilometers, then suddenly loosing sime, maybe stabilizing the gap again for  a while.

    When they got to Jafferau, the well-rested legs in the chase group (wheelsuckers this time: Lopez and Carapaz) were faster than Froome.

    https://twitter.com/David_mc_cann/status/1000342636497063937

     
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  • pastronef

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    they planned it km by km. Portal guiding Froome in the finestre downhill.  :cool


    https://www.twitter.com/kingblem/status/1001021853090111488

    it´s fantastic when you have a plan and it succeeds. grande Sky
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  • Mellow Velo

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     This is well worth a watch: inside Team Sunweb at the end of stage 18 and after.
    From 2'-45" especially, when the discussion turns to this stage.

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  • « Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 18:58 by LukasCPH »

     



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