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Can't believe people are trying to compare Phonak or Contador with Sky. Just shows how completely unbalanced things have got. Can you not see the completely and utterly obvious difference?

But these debates need to be in their proper place and there is one for it. What got tedious yesterday was that certain people kept on repeating accusations and then never going to the appropriate thread to spell out why they thought what they did.

Personally speaking I think that now the issue has been aired, self regulation is the best way forward. If posters are getting annoyed with repeated doping accusations or insinuations, then ask the offender to put his thoughts down somewhere more appropriate.
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  • Sizzle

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    Hmmmmm. Lots of thoughtful posts in this thread.

    Pedaling Squares sums up my position best with this:

    I agreed with some points in FTP and dim's first posts. I don't mind doping commentary in the race chats at all. Questions about doping, even accusations, are as pertinent to this sport as questions about training, tactics, and equipment. I like having a doping-specific section of the forum, but don't want it to get to the point that doping talk is forbidden in live chats. I threw some very doping-specific comments in today's stage, and I don't see any reason not to. My thoughts were, hmm I don't think what I am seeing passes the smell test and I wrote to that effect. It was relevant to the event. FTP and dim made some good points about tangential information in what is essentially an evolving conversation, and the need for self-regulation. I fall off the bus when we start to write a hard and fast rule - no doping talk after point X. Today's stage was pretty unique - highly dominant  performances by two Sky riders 24 hrs after BW reacted so poorly when asked about doping. Such a unique event is naturally going to result in more doping talk in the race chat. Do we want to create a rule based on the such an unusual event? Well-intentioned, but possibly an over-reaction. There is, for the most part, a high level of respect among members of this forum and I suspect that a couple of well-stated and gentle requests about the level of dope chat in a race would achieve an accord among the bunch.

    My preference is that we at least try the approach of self-moderation and/or "a couple of well-stated and gentle requests about the level of dope chat in a race" before introducing hard & fast rules.

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  • Slow Rider

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    A 30km rule is akin to someone coming in and saying "right guys, its been great but can we focus on the race now as it gets towards the finish", you see it on twitter, this afternoon was loads of lance talk, wiggins talk, but once it got to the gc contenders on the road most people switched back to cycling.

    If this is the way the rule will be enforced, I agree with it. As long as it's not too strict; if the stage is really incredibly boring allow the doping talk until 10k before the finish, and if it's a stage like last years' Alpe d'Huez stage with racing from the start, adjust the 'rule' accordingly.
    I have one question remaining though: how about post-race chat? Some posters (including me sometimes) only visit the shoutbox after the race has ended to analyse it in hindsight. Is doping allowed then, or is that included in the 30km rule?

    About the comparison between Sky, Contador and Phonak: I don't think they are compareable. I am not a Sky fan, nor was I ever a fan of Contador or Phonak or even Armstrong, so I consider myself pretty neutral here. The difference is that in the case of Sky it is about a team that is currently active in a race. I find it much more disheartening to hear doping comments about a team that is racing (and winning) than about a team that did a similar thing years ago.
    Still, all of that is pretty irrelevant since all these will be discouraged (which still sounds better to me than forbidden ;) ) during the times when racing is going on. So that includes digs at Evans, Nibali and his Ferrari connection (yay I can keep believing :win ), Contador and even Armstrong.
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  • Dim

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    Did you have a problem with it when people said stuff like that about Phonak to me or said similar things to other people? See, I find it interesting that many posters on here and elsewhere that are complaining about the accusations towards Sky are British. The only real reason people started mentioning that sh*t on the chatroom was because many people's eyebrows were higher than they ever have been. It rarely does happen and I think people should calm down about it.

    Dont think its got anything to do with Sky, or anything else, as Francois laid out in his post.

    Bear in mind as well that I am replying here based on the wellbeing of the forum, not my personal opinions. Im very good at seperating the two,. For years as you know I ran businesses, there were always people I disagreed with, didnt like as much as others, had conflicting personalities with, but it was my job to make sure all of those get pushed aside and I deal with everything impartially.

    What Francois originally raised is that not everybody wants to talk about doping. There is a specific reason doping like on other forums is kept in a seperate thread, so that people who just want to support the sport for what it is can do so without having to read accusations, innuendo, or doping stories. The chatbox's are open to everyone, including un registered visitors to the forum, and with that in mind it is important, no, imperative that they are a pleasant place for everyone, those who wish to talk about doping, but also those who wish just to enjoy this sport for what it is.

    Imagine you are watching a stage of the Tour in a bar, and with 100km to go a bunch of drunk rugby fans come in and start ranting about how all cyclists are doping. For the first hour or so, theres nothing going on in the race, you would probably engage in discussion or argument with them, but once it got the crucial part of the race and they are still shouting "hes a doper, theres another doper" in your ear it would probably start to pee you off.

    Its not fair on the people who dont want to talk about doping constantly to have to listen to it, and likewise, for guests it doesnt create a welcoming impression either.

    However, as I said, in the early stages of the race theres not much going on, people will talk about various things, that includes the days news and that news could be anything from teams getting sponsors, riders getting transferred, and invariably doping stories. It would be heavy handed to say that in the quiet parts of the race people can talk about anything except for Lance filing a lawsuit against USADA, that would be akin to censorship.

    however, I and clearly others beleive, that when there is racing going on, and the race is getting exciting as a cycling race, then the focus of the chats should be on the racing, and not any side isses.

    Ultimately those who enjoy talking about doping wont be upset by having to keep a lid on it for the final 30-40km of a stage, but those who dont want to talk about doping, are upset by having to read it in the race chat.

    As said before, its no different to twitter, I will have long discussions about Armstrong, rants etc while the race is going on, but with 30-40km to go, I shut up about it, move on, and enjoy (and let others enjoy) the race.

    This isnt just about Sky, there are several riders who have had incredibly poor starts to the tour, and if they suddenly after the rest day start climbing like mountain goats, dropping people the inevitable "refill on the rest day" jibes will start.

    A conversation along the lines of
    Person a) Hm, Rider X has clearly had his restday refill
    Person b) Was just thinking that myself ;)

    Is fine, but when it start developing into a full blown doping discussion it is disruptive for the people who just want to talk about the race (just as a full blown conversation about tennis when theres ten km to go on a flat stage would be disruptive).

    I agree that a deal of self moderation is needed, you the users should be able to work out between yourselves, what is acceptable, and when it is time to drop the conversation and move on to racing which ultimately is why we are all here, in the absence of that a cut off point, or at least a moderator at some point over the stage posting a message that enough is enough, and its time to move onto racing, would be needed.
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  • ram

    Edited by Mod
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  • « Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 14:51 by Dim, Reason: While I appreciate your point of view, it does nothing but further inflame the situation. »


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    Ok, guys, this is the only warning that is going to be issued in this thread, so please take note.

    This thread is purely to discuss wether or not off topic discussions or doping discussions should take place in the race day shoutbox.

    This is NOT

    A place to discuss, Sky, Wiggins, Armstrong or anybody else and peoples personal bias towards certain riders

    A place to air personal greivances or make personal remarks towards other posters

    A place to bring Nationalistic views into the argument.

    A section of the "Dark Side"

    This IS

    A place for rational people to discuss how the raceday shoutboxes can be best served so that every member of this community without exception finds them a pleasurable and enjoyable place to be on race days.

    Further personal insults, and off topic remarks will result in sanctions which is a last resort on this forum, sanctions will/may include 24 hour suspension of shoutbox privaleges along with having posts placed on moderation. If you wish to discuss particular aspects of the conversation please take it to the doping section.

    Many thanks
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  • Dim

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    And as a second note. Doping discussion is now banned in the main shoutbox, the darkside has its own dedicated shoutbox.

    (Obviousy common sense prevails, posting a link saying Cofidis hotel raided with a web link as "news" is fine, but for other discussion please use the DS Shoutbox or encourage users to go to the DS shoutbox)
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Lance is God ;D!
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  • Reverend Fred Saves!!


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