collapse


t-72

  • Road Captain
  • Country: no
  • Posts: 1576
  • Liked: 2736
What is it with Danish cyclists and changing names?
« on: February 05, 2019, 23:01 »
Just asking!

Waiting for a big win from #didata Hundahl this spring....
  • ReplyReply

  • Leadbelly

    • Grand Tour Winner
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 7641
    • Liked: 7024
    • Awards: 2018 Zero Pointers CQ Game winnerNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2017National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2016KeithJamesMC award 2016Avatar of the year 2015Velogames Spring Classics 2015National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014
    It's not just the cyclists.

    Fus -----------> LukasCPH ;)
  • ReplyReply

  • t-72

    • Road Captain
    • Country: no
    • Posts: 1576
    • Liked: 2736
    It's not just the cyclists.

    Fus -----------> LukasCPH ;)

    yep, I am eagerly awaiting answers from experts with first-hand knowledge.  :D
  • ReplyReply

  • search

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11007
    • Liked: 11563
    • Awards: 2018 Autumn Classics Prediction ChampMember of the year 2016Post of the year 2016KeithJamesMC 2016Member of the year 20152012 CQ Ranking Tour GameAvatar of the Year 2013
    seems like he got married with a Miss Hundahl and now they both habe a double name.

    Not sure how that worked out for LucasCPH though
  • ReplyReply
  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11242
    • Liked: 7069
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Basically, most Danes have a -sen last name: Hansen, Christensen, Andersen etc. Because these aren't exactly unique identifiers (around 5 % of all Danes are called Hansen, e.g.), many instead choose to go by their middle name (which is technically treated as a given name, but is in fact passed down through the family) - and nobody in Denmark then uses their last name to identify them.

    We don't talk about Chris Sørensen, but about Chris Anker Sørensen - or, most commonly, simply Chris Anker.
    Similarly, Michael Andersen isn't a famous pro cyclist (Michael Andersen could be anyone). The famous cyclist is called Michael Valgren, the Andersen bit doesn't even show up.

    So far, so good - but there are also Danes with last names not ending in -sen ... and those usually go by their last name (e.g. Bjarne Lykkegård Riis = Bjarne Riis[1]).

    And then there are marriages. It's not actually mandatory, but most couples will adopt a 'family name' that any future kids will also get (and, yes, a middle name may still be passed on). For instance, ex-pro André Steensen married the sister of Michael Valgren Andersen, and now both go by Valgren Steensen: He adopted the Valgren name as a middle name, and she dropped her previous last name Andersen, taking his last name, Steensen.

    Her brother appears to have done similarly, dropping the run-of-the-mill last name Andersen in favour of his wife's more unique Hundahl upon marriage.
    Note that this doesn't at all change the name by which he goes - nobody called him Michael Andersen before, and hardly anybody will call him Michael Hundahl now. If anything, he'll be called Michael Valgren Hundahl, but that's probably only if he's involved in a court case or something similarly official. For all other purposes, he continues to be known as Michael Valgren.

    Here's a shorter summary.

    It's not just the cyclists.

    Fus -----------> LukasCPH ;)
    yep, I am eagerly awaiting answers from experts with first-hand knowledge.  :D
    My 'old' username was composed of the last name of a little-known Czech cyclist[2] and my birth year.

    When I started to venture into cycling journalism for real, I decided it would be good if my VR username and my Twitter handle were the same.
    My Twitter handle (and, consequently, my new username) was chosen as a combination of my first name and the three-letter abbreviation of the city I was living in at the time.

    :)
     1. just imagine how, if his name was Bjarne Lykkegård Andersen, international commentators would have butchered Lykkegård - if they had caught on to it at all
     2. his biggest result was a bronze medal in the 2003 Junior Worlds
  • ReplyReply
  • Cyclingnews Women's WorldTour Correspondent
    2017 0711|CYCLING PR Manager; 2016 Stölting Content Editor
    Views presented are my own. RIP Keith & Sean

    t-72

    • Road Captain
    • Country: no
    • Posts: 1576
    • Liked: 2736
    very short and concise explanation

    I guess I just discovered another reasons why no-one understands danish   :S

    So what about Hundahls  x-kasakh partner in crime?

    #astana Magnus Cort Nielsen at some point announced (at least in Norwegian media) that he now goes by Magnus Cort. That's like "I will now be identified only by my first names and not by my family name" which maybe sounds like, fine, if that is the way you like it.

    However, according to Nordic tradition,  persons that goes without a family name are the royal family members.

    #astana King Cort! By decree this is not pretentious!  :D

  • ReplyReply

  • search

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11007
    • Liked: 11563
    • Awards: 2018 Autumn Classics Prediction ChampMember of the year 2016Post of the year 2016KeithJamesMC 2016Member of the year 20152012 CQ Ranking Tour GameAvatar of the Year 2013
    #astana Magnus Cort Nielsen at some point announced (at least in Norwegian media) that he now goes by Magnus Cort.

    isn't that exactly what Lukas explained above?! With Magnus Cort Nielsen , Michael Valgren Andersen, Martin Toft Madsen, Søren Kragh Andersen, Michael Mørkøv Christensen and so on there are plenty of examples for that in cycling at least.
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11242
    • Liked: 7069
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    isn't that exactly what Lukas explained above?! With Magnus Cort Nielsen , Michael Valgren Andersen, Martin Toft Madsen, Søren Kragh Andersen, Michael Mørkøv Christensen and so on there are plenty of examples for that in cycling at least.
    Exactly that. :cool

    I have another analogy: Nobody[1] would refer to the current road world champion as Alejandro Belmonte. And nobody would really care (or even notice) if he suddenly changed name from Alejandro Valverde Belmonte to e.g. Alejandro Valverde Malmare ... because everybody knows that Spaniards (and the like) go by their first surname.

    The Danish system is in many regards the same. The middle name is technically a given name, but really only technically. In all concerns and aspects, it functions as a family name.

    #astana Magnus Cort Nielsen at some point announced (at least in Norwegian media) that he now goes by Magnus Cort. That's like "I will now be identified only by my first names and not by my family name" which maybe sounds like, fine, if that is the way you like it.
    This is how he explained it to foreigners unfamiliar with the (frankly complicated) concept of middle names.
    Just keep in mind that whenever a Danish ends in a -sen last name, the person concerned will have nothing at all against you completely forgetting that -sen even exists and addressing them by their first name (in this case, Magnus) and middle name (here, Cort).

    And in fact, the -sen last names are often virtually forgotten in Denmark. When I watched German TV news and they mentioned "NATO secretary general Rasmussen", I had to think for quite a while before realising they were referring to Anders Fogh.
    Speaking of Danish politicians, the name Rasmussen is especially widespread in that three consecutive prime ministers don't go by that name - Poul Nyrup, aforementioned Anders Fogh, and Lars Løkke. Then came Helle Thorning-Schmidt who has a hyphenated last name (rare, but not unheard of), so she is properly called Thorning-Schmidt. And even here, the -Schmidt is sometimes chopped off, despite it not even being a -sen name.

    However, according to Nordic tradition,  persons that goes without a family name are the royal family members.

    #astana King Cort! By decree this is not pretentious!  :D
    Somewhat off-topic, King Cort (or alternatively, the Sun King - since he's from the Sunshine Island, Bornholm), is actually one of his nicknames. :D
     1. nobody who isn't an absolute nitwit, that is
  • ReplyReply

  • Echoes

    • Road Captain
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 1357
    • Liked: 1503
    A few years ago, I was informed that the same goes to Swedes. The Pettersson brothers, for example, are now called Fåglum: Gösta "Fåglum" Pettersson. Too many Pettersson in Sweden. Yet, my own Swedish cousins still have their last names in -son, it never changed.

  • ReplyReply
  • "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

    Armchair Cyclist

    • Road Captain
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 2298
    • Liked: 2496
    • Awards: 2018 Tour de France CQ game winnerGiro Prediction Champ 2017
    As I mentioned in another thread that discussed the same, it happens informally in some parts of rural Ireland where one name predominates. 
    Where I used to spend most of the summer (and my brother now lives) on the Beara peninsula, the surname O'Sullivan is (or at least was: greater movement of population now) so common as to fail in its essential purposes of identifying which of various people of the same given name is meant, and identifying immediate family groupings.  So there were Jer O'Sullivans, Con O'Sullivans, Sean O'Sullivans, Barry O'Sullivans, and probably other groups further west that I never met. 
    So there might be a Danny Jer, Danny Con and Danny Sean all in the same class, and their sisters would also have had these male forenames used as though they were middle names. 
    It has no legal status (I don't think it is usually on the birth certificate), but the additional identifier is used when these guys become well known: Kevin Jer was one of the premier Gaelic footballers of his day, and would never have been called Kevin O'Sullivan by commentators or in the press.
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11242
    • Liked: 7069
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    A few years ago, I was informed that the same goes to Swedes. The Pettersson brothers, for example, are now called Fåglum: Gösta "Fåglum" Pettersson. Too many Pettersson in Sweden. Yet, my own Swedish cousins still have their last names in -son, it never changed.
    Close, but no cigar. ;)
    They were all born as Pettersson, but as you say, there are many of those in Sweden.
    So they were quickly called the "Fåglum brothers" after the cycling club where they started their career. But their official names were still Pettersson.

    Later, three of them (Tomas, Erik, and Sture) adopted Fåglum as their actual last name, dropping Pettersson altogether - but Gösta continued to be a Pettersson, with "Fåglum" continuing to be only an inofficial nickname.
  • ReplyReply

  • L'arri

    • Is on Dr Search's Green and Grey Diet
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 8038
    • Liked: 6700
    • Dopeology.org @DopeologyDotOrg @L_arriviste
      • Dopeology.org
    • Awards: Post of the year 2015Best Opening Post 2012
    What a thread. :P
  • ReplyReply
  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon / Larry Sarni

    Carlo Algatrensig

    • National Champion
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 803
    • Liked: 934
    What a thread. :P

    Come for the cycling stay for the in depth discussions of naming conventions in various countrys
  • ReplyReply

  • Armchair Cyclist

    • Road Captain
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 2298
    • Liked: 2496
    • Awards: 2018 Tour de France CQ game winnerGiro Prediction Champ 2017
    And then there are marriages. It's not actually mandatory, but most couples will adopt a 'family name' that any future kids will also get (and, yes, a middle name may still be passed on). For instance, ex-pro André Steensen married the sister of Michael Valgren Andersen, and now both go by Valgren Steensen: He adopted the Valgren name as a middle name, and she dropped her previous last name Andersen, taking his last name, Steensen.

    Her brother appears to have done similarly, dropping the run-of-the-mill last name Andersen in favour of his wife's more unique Hundahl upon marriage.

    So if the idea that Michael Kragh Jensen marries Maria Cort Hansen and they thence both use Kragh Cort as a surname, and pass that on to their kids, is becoming more common, will there be a dramatic drop in the prevalence of hitherto common -sen surnames?
  • ReplyReply

  • Drummer Boy

    • Road Captain
    • Country: us
    • Posts: 2266
    • Liked: 2537
    • Awards: Post of the year 2015
    Come for the cycling stay for the in depth discussions of naming conventions in various countrys

    I travelled to Korea for a few weeks in the mid-1990s (before heading to Okinawa and then Japan) and I remember reading at that time that it was illegal for couples to marry if they had the same last name and came from the same "clan." The main problem being that of the entire population, nearly half were made up of only three surnames: Kim, Lee or Park. Clearly the laws were born out of old traditions, and the need to avoid incest. But as the population grew, this became problematic, as you could easily imagine the odds to be quite good that you might meet, and be attracted to, someone with the same family name. It was serious business at the time though. They did eventually relax those laws, but I think only as recently as ten years ago, or so.

    In double-checking my memory of this, I came across this interesting tidbit:

    For a nation with a population of over 48 million, Korea does not have that many family names – in fact, less than 300 all told. This is interesting, when compared with a nation like the Netherlands, which only adopted surnames when forced to by Napoleon in 1811, and which has over 100,000 different names.
  • ReplyReply

  • Armchair Cyclist

    • Road Captain
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 2298
    • Liked: 2496
    • Awards: 2018 Tour de France CQ game winnerGiro Prediction Champ 2017
    I have always assumed that the Spanish (and Portuguese) tradition was due to the relatively limited number of surnames, or at least the geographical concentration of some names, and the need to distinguish between people by name, rather than the desire to record materneal lineage.  Not to the extent of what Drummer reports of Korea, but a limited range by European standards.
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11242
    • Liked: 7069
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    So if the idea that Michael Kragh Jensen marries Maria Cort Hansen and they thence both use Kragh Cort as a surname, and pass that on to their kids, is becoming more common, will there be a dramatic drop in the prevalence of hitherto common -sen surnames?
    Well ... yes and no.

    In your hypothetical example, what would most likely happen is that Maria Cort Hansen becomes Maria Cort Jensen (or Michael Kragh Jensen becomes Michael Kragh Hansen). It is normally only the 'real' last name that is designated as 'family name' - but with the kids often getting one of their parents' middle names as well. So the kids could be Kasper Kragh Jensen and Mette Kragh Jensen, e.g.

    But what makes things more complicated is that
    a) it is relatively easy to change your name, taking on a last name that used to be in the family - so Mette could choose to re-adopt their mother's Hansen, or even their mother's mother's Pedersen - or a middle name that used to be in the family - so Kasper could choose to take his mother's Cort instead of his father's Kragh, or even his father's mother's Kvist.
    b) it is possible to drop the -sen last name altogether, and choose a middle name as new official last name. This is what I suppose must have happened at some point in Michael Valgren's wife's family, making Hundahl their official last name, and now his as well.

    It is unusual (but probably not forbidden) to directly adopt one of the spouses' middle names as new family name, as in your example.

    And yes, a long-term effect of people dropping their -sen names is that these names become less ubiquitous. But there will still be plenty of -sens around, at least in our lifetimes; we're talking about a drop from >90 percent to maybe around 80 percent.
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11242
    • Liked: 7069
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    In your hypothetical example, what would most likely happen is that Maria Cort Hansen becomes Maria Cort Jensen (or Michael Kragh Jensen becomes Michael Kragh Hansen). It is normally only the 'real' last name that is designated as 'family name' - but with the kids often getting one of their parents' middle names as well. So the kids could be Kasper Kragh Jensen and Mette Kragh Jensen, e.g.

    But what makes things more complicated is that
    a) it is relatively easy to change your name, taking on a last name that used to be in the family - so Mette could choose to re-adopt their mother's Hansen, or even their mother's mother's Pedersen - or a middle name that used to be in the family - so Kasper could choose to take his mother's Cort instead of his father's Kragh, or even his father's mother's Kvist.
    b) it is possible to drop the -sen last name altogether, and choose a middle name as new official last name. This is what I suppose must have happened at some point in Michael Valgren's wife's family, making Hundahl their official last name, and now his as well.
    To show just how absurd things can (theoretically) get, here's the Kragh/Kvist/Cort/Hult Jensen/Clemmensen/Hansen/Pedersen family tree: :lol

    Morten Kragh Jensen -- Sofie Kvist Jensen (née Clemmensen)      Christian Cort Hansen -- Pernille Hult Hansen (née Pedersen)
                                    |                                                                                              |
                            Michael Kragh Jensen                          --------               Maria Cort Jensen (née Hansen)
                                                                                          |
                                                           -----------------------------------------------
                                   Mette Kragh Pedersen (née Jensen)                Kasper Kvist Hansen (né Kragh Jensen)
  • ReplyReply

  • Echoes

    • Road Captain
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 1357
    • Liked: 1503
    Close, but no cigar. ;)
    They were all born as Pettersson, but as you say, there are many of those in Sweden.
    So they were quickly called the "Fåglum brothers" after the cycling club where they started their career. But their official names were still Pettersson.

    Later, three of them (Tomas, Erik, and Sture) adopted Fåglum as their actual last name, dropping Pettersson altogether - but Gösta continued to be a Pettersson, with "Fåglum" continuing to be only an inofficial nickname.

    Thanks. That explains quite a lot. So I should understand that it's not systematic in Sweden and just a family decision. However then what about Markus Fåglum, grandson of the late Sture Pettersson Fåglum and who also is/was a cyclist? His father is Jan Karlsson who also happened to be a cyclist. Markus is sometimes referred to as Markus Fåglum Karlsson. I understand that Fåglum is the mother's name. So Sture was his maternal grandfather and Markus chose his mother's name? Is that right?
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11242
    • Liked: 7069
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Thanks. That explains quite a lot. So I should understand that it's not systematic in Sweden and just a family decision. However then what about Markus Fåglum, grandson of the late Sture Pettersson Fåglum and who also is/was a cyclist? His father is Jan Karlsson who also happened to be a cyclist. Markus is sometimes referred to as Markus Fåglum Karlsson. I understand that Fåglum is the mother's name. So Sture was his maternal grandfather and Markus chose his mother's name? Is that right?
    Sounds like it, yes. :)
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 8548
    • Liked: 4292
    • Awards: National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2018KeithJamesMC award 2016Velorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    I have always assumed that the Spanish (and Portuguese) tradition was due to the relatively limited number of surnames, or at least the geographical concentration of some names, and the need to distinguish between people by name, rather than the desire to record materneal lineage.  Not to the extent of what Drummer reports of Korea, but a limited range by European standards.
    I do believe that is true. And Spanish naming customs are similar to Danish in the sense that when someone has a very common paternal surname like Garcia and a rarer maternal surname, the maternal name is often used instead (see ex-prime minister Zapatero, or Pablo Picasso) However Spanish and Portuguese don't exchange surnames in marriage, I believe.
  • ReplyReply
  • RIP Keith
    RIP krebs

    LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11242
    • Liked: 7069
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    However Spanish and Portuguese don't exchange surnames in marriage, I believe.
    You're right, they don't. They only pass them on to their kids. :)

    If Enrique Figueres García mary María González Hernández, they keep their names as they are. However, their kids would then be named Francisco Figueres González or Ana Figueres González.

    And this 'passing on last names to kids' is done with everyone born in a Spanish-speaking country, leading to the curiously-named Andrey Amador Bikkazakova: Amador from his Costarican father, Bikkazakova from his Russian mother - but the -a is the feminine ending in Russian last names, so here we have a man with a female-ending last name! :D
  • ReplyReply

  •  

    Recent Posts

    Re: Smaller Race Results and Discussion 2019 by search
    [February 17, 2019, 21:08]


    Re: Smaller Race Results and Discussion 2019 by LukasCPH
    [February 17, 2019, 20:08]


    Re: Smaller Race Results and Discussion 2019 by Leadbelly
    [February 17, 2019, 19:14]


    Re: Smaller Race Results and Discussion 2019 by Leadbelly
    [February 17, 2019, 19:09]


    Re: Ciclismo Cup 2019 by Mellow Velo
    [February 17, 2019, 18:48]


    Re: Ciclismo Cup 2019 by Leadbelly
    [February 17, 2019, 10:30]



    Top
    Back to top