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M Gee

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Stage 19: Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne > Tignes
« on: July 20, 2019, 19:01 »
Last chance for the GC train to change cars for #yellow. (Edit: I was tired when I wrote this - late at night. Tomorrow is more likely to be "THE" day, with a mt-top finish.)

The Col de I'lseran presents a changing pace, and the climbers will have good opportunities to shake things up.




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  • « Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 16:15 by M Gee »
    . . .He had the bit between his teeth, and he loiked the taste, mate . . .

    Drummer Boy

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    The decision to stop the race was out of everyone's hands. Flash hail storm caught everyone by surprise for its intensity and pin point focus. No way they could do anything else given the images below.
     :(

    Beside rain, hail or snow, that's all mud and rocks blocking the road entirely.

    https://twitter.com/mortenvel/status/1154765193530040321





    Translation, anyone? (Not that I can't extrapolate the general message of doom).
    https://twitter.com/trondiversen/status/1154771153736671232

    https://twitter.com/letour_uk/status/1154766634072125440
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  • « Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 16:52 by Drummer Boy »

    Mellow Velo

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     Seems now there may not be official timings available at the top of the Iseran.
    The dog ate the ASO's clock......

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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Drummer Boy

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    I think Mother Nature was responding to Thibaut Pinot's  #groupama pain.  :(





    Team mechanic not in the mood...for anything.
    https://twitter.com/marcelvo21/status/1154740972703686656


    https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1154778667844874240
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  • « Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 16:51 by Drummer Boy »

    Mellow Velo

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    Latest on the site.

    There will be no winner for stage 19 and no most aggressive rider. For the overall classification, the times at col d'Iseran will apply.

    Not sure why there should be no winner. It's pretty obvious who it was.

    Bernal
    Alaphilippe  @  25"
    Thomas    @   1'-06"
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    the bonus seconds at the Col d'Iseron will be handed out though (but not those for the stage winner)

    1. Egan Bernal
    2. Simon Yates, at 5’’
    3. Warren Barguil, at 41’’
    4. Laurens De Plus, at 50’’
    5. Steven Kruijswijk,
    6. Geraint Thomas,
    7. Emanuel Buchmann,
    8. Vincenzo Nibali, all st
    9. Richie Porte, at 1’18’’
    10. Gregor Mühlberger, st
    11. Wout Poels, at 1’50’’
    12. Damiano Caruso
    13. Alejandro Valverde, all st
    14. Julian Alaphilippe, at 2’07’’
    15. Rigoberto Uran, at 2’30’’

    (Uran must be incorrect?!)

    GC:
    1. Egan Bernal
    2. Julian Alaphilippe, at 45’’
    3. Geraint Thomas, at 1’3’’
    4. Steven Kruijswijk, at 1’15’’
    5. Emanuel Buchmann, at 1’42’’

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    did anyone hear/read a comment from Sky btw, did they "know" about it?

    #bahrain Brent Copeland said he saw the pictures of the landslide 20 minutes before the stage was cancelled, and I guess the same applies for others. When I saw Bernal live on TV, I was wondering if it was smart to drop Yates (his only ally for the potential final 40k on the attack) - but if he knew that there was a chance for the finish line to be on the l'Iseran, it made perfectly sense of course...
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  • just some guy

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    Well that was unexpected
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Results are available now:

    ~pdf Stage
    ~pdf GC

    They found both Uran and Landa, missing in the Top 10 up there, and it seems like the time cut was not enforced in the end (everyone on from Burghardt in 87th missed it)
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  • Leadbelly

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    Armchair Cyclist

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    Do the ASO and Tissot not possess a stopwatch between them?  Rewinding the recording shows very different times than they have reported.  And given that it was not an official timed point, who was there to record times for the rest of the field?  There was no evidence of a fixed point camera, so what record was there?

    Not giving Bernal the stage win time bonus was some sort of a concession, I suppose, to Alaphilippe, Kruijswijk and Buchmann, but it seems churlish not to allow him the honour of being declared stage winner.  I guess he will get a few in years to come.

    I can understand not applying the cut off, but the rules state that there is a points penalty for those allowed to continue in such circumstances.  It probably won't matter, but if for some reason Sagan DNFs, Mathews and Colbrelli will have reason to be very aggreived that the penalty appears not to have been applied to Viviani.


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  • LukasCPH

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    Translation, anyone? (Not that I can't extrapolate the general message of doom).
    https://twitter.com/trondiversen/status/1154771153736671232
    The bit I can understand is "now there are heaps of stones coming down the mountain".


    Well, that was all a bit crazy today. :o
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    AG

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    I agree with not giving Bernal the stage win or time bonus.

    I think its actually likely (or at least 25-30% chance) that Yates would have won. 


    As for the decision - definitely the correct one.  The only one they could have made, and they did a good job.  The stories that Bernal knew in advance seems like rubbish to me.  The storm only happened late on the way up ... we got reports of hail on the other side while they were midway up the climb ... so they cant have had that much notice.

    Overall, I actually think Bernal would have gained a bit more time, and Alaphilippe would have lost a big chunk of time - so the one who is a bit hard done by here is NOT the guy who lost yellow ... but the one who gained it.
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  • M Gee

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    The bit I can understand is "now there are heaps of stones coming down the mountain".


    Well, that was all a bit crazy today. :o
    Yeah. A bit crazy. Yup.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    DB-Coop

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    Overall, I actually think Bernal would have gained a bit more time, and Alaphilippe would have lost a big chunk of time - so the one who is a bit hard done by here is NOT the guy who lost yellow ... but the one who gained it.

    It is such a hard decission to make. Because either you take the results at the top of the Iseran, which gives an at best arbitrairy result. Or you cancel the whole stage result.

    All I know is, if I'm Kruijswijk or Buchmann, I'm arguing that all the times should be reset. Because how is it fair that Bernal wins the tour because he happened to attack in that moment? There was still far to go and he would likely have been caught. If I'm Ineos I'm obviously arguing the other way that this is the fairest result.

    Imagine the outcry if they had neutralized the whole stage, and Pinot had been allowed to start stage 20 :D

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  • t-72

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    Imagine the outcry if they had neutralized the whole stage, and Pinot had been allowed to start stage 20 :D

    Wouldn’t have had much effect for Pinot, his beaten-up muscle probably need more time to recover, I think. His style is to suffer for too long before quitting, so one can safely assume he’s not the strong vintage Pinot that we saw on the Tourmalet any more.

    As for all the other stuff that has happened, from afar it seems they handled it well so far. In outdoor sports we can’t get the best races and  100% fair competitions when compromises with adverse weather are necessary.

    I know quite a lot about these forces of nature (your in-house geologist speaking) and I totally agree with the decision to not continue the race. The risk factors were obviously completely out of control, and with the high number of people involved (not just racers: the fans, the publicity caravan, the media people etc) they were quite far from avsatte a safe[1] passage. The debris flow that was recorded by the TV2 team and which stopped the race wasn´t the worst I have seen, and you can sort of imagine Wout van Aert  shouldering his bike to pass such obstacles.  Come to think of it, Alaphilippe used to be good at that too.


    The big problem isnt the debris on the road, it is that it is almost impossible to judge on the fly if that was all or if there´s more and more damaging ones on the way down the mountain. The TV2 crew reported sounds of rockfall, which is even less controllable and very violent on impact, small tennis-ball sized rocks from high above are very dangerous, especially for spectators that stay in the exposed areal for longer.
     1.  I thought I had back-corrected all the stupid auto-correct-failures in this post but no!
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  • « Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 17:36 by t-72, Reason: autocorrect-typos "re-wronged" to the intended language »

    Armchair Cyclist

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    And the gaps behind Bernal have now been revised.

    Makes one wonder what evidence ASO thought they had for the times that they published yesterday.
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    It is such a hard decission to make. Because either you take the results at the top of the Iseran, which gives an at best arbitrairy result. Or you cancel the whole stage result.

    All I know is, if I'm Kruijswijk or Buchmann, I'm arguing that all the times should be reset. Because how is it fair that Bernal wins the tour because he happened to attack in that moment? There was still far to go and he would likely have been caught. If I'm Ineos I'm obviously arguing the other way that this is the fairest result.

    Imagine the outcry if they had neutralized the whole stage, and Pinot had been allowed to start stage 20 :D



    In terms of deciding what to do with a situation like this the rules appear to give a few options but don't give any preference to one over the other so is left to the Comissaires/race organisers discretion.

    If the rules gave them in some sort of order to try to apply them in it would remove any accusations of favouritism in anyway as the way the decision was reached can be clearly seen.

    They almost need one of those decision flow chart things.

    Can we neutralise and then restart the race? yes/no

    if no

    Can a result be declared using an alternative finish point? yes/no

    if no

    Cancel Stage.
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  • DB-Coop

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    In terms of deciding what to do with a situation like this the rules appear to give a few options but don't give any preference to one over the other so is left to the Comissaires/race organisers discretion.

    If the rules gave them in some sort of order to try to apply them in it would remove any accusations of favouritism in anyway as the way the decision was reached can be clearly seen.

    They almost need one of those decision flow chart things.

    Can we neutralise and then restart the race? yes/no

    if no

    Can a result be declared using an alternative finish point? yes/no

    if no

    Cancel Stage.

    It is so hard though, because whether the approach they took or a complete cancellation of the stage is more fair depends mostly on if one believes Bernal would last all the way.

    Looking at the extreme examples helps prove the above.
    1) Some TV break consisting gets a huge margin because the peloton believes they will crack. Here canceling the stage midway would clearly be worse than a complete cancellation.
    2) The race has to be stopped 500m from the finish line because of something, the first rider to arrive at this point is 3 minutes ahead of the next rider. Clearly he would have won, so a complete cancellation seems unfair.

    As far as a fixed rule, perhaps a rule stating a distance to the finish line which is the furthest away it can be canceled and still count. I would argue this should probably be no more than 10 km to be honest.

    As far as favoritism goes it works both ways as well. Maybe they did not cancel it together to not look like they favored Alaphilippe. I mean can you imagine the outcry if they said, well stage 19 is canceled, and stage 20 will feature just one climb. I mean he would have lost the jersey regardless, but still.
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  • AG

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    sometimes I think the rules just need to allow for discretion.

    You simply cannot predict every situation and circumstance, and leaving some discretion to make the result as fair as possible in whatever the individual circumstances that the race finds is sometimes the best way.

    so - I agree with leaving it up to the comissaire.

    And in this case, I think they made the right call.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    It is so hard though, because whether the approach they took or a complete cancellation of the stage is more fair depends mostly on if one believes Bernal would last all the way.

    Looking at the extreme examples helps prove the above.
    1) Some TV break consisting gets a huge margin because the peloton believes they will crack. Here canceling the stage midway would clearly be worse than a complete cancellation.
    2) The race has to be stopped 500m from the finish line because of something, the first rider to arrive at this point is 3 minutes ahead of the next rider. Clearly he would have won, so a complete cancellation seems unfair.

    As far as a fixed rule, perhaps a rule stating a distance to the finish line which is the furthest away it can be canceled and still count. I would argue this should probably be no more than 10 km to be honest.

    As far as favoritism goes it works both ways as well. Maybe they did not cancel it together to not look like they favored Alaphilippe. I mean can you imagine the outcry if they said, well stage 19 is canceled, and stage 20 will feature just one climb. I mean he would have lost the jersey regardless, but still.

     It's worth remembering that stage 20 was at one point looking certain to be cancelled.
    Had stage 19 been struck off as well, we would have ended up with a completely farcical result.
    So, with hindsight, it was the right decision.
     
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