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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
« Reply #120 on: March 21, 2020, 07:33 »
As someone who has spent an extended time living and working in SIN ...
It is true that they are a small space with limited access points - but those points absolutely hum and are an absolute hub for so many locations. The shipping traffic is, i would argue, far more significant as an access point - both crews and cargoes (and the sheer number of diverse vessels!)
They also wouldn't close off the bridges from Malaysia - the country is absolutely reliant on Malaysian workers at all levels and in all sectors ...

I would also be interested to know how effective those measures would be at a later stage in the disease cycle. True, you wouldn't hold at SIN levels, but would they still prove a really significant cap???

I don't know, really, personal I struggle to see it. Singapore started this when they had a dozen positive cases or so, and the risk to import more of them was basically limited to China (leading to screenings and tests at the airport and so on) - now we have ten thousands (or probably way more) over here in Germany alone, who got in contact with a million other people I guess, and everyone who comes into the country is basically a person of risk to spread it further, no matter where from.

I agree that new strategies need to be found for sure though. The "flatten the curve" approach is not a bad one to begin with, but if we really manage to keep it that low that the health care system can cope with it (if the expected numbers are correct), that would also mean that it takes 10 years or so to get done with it - which obviously is not a real option.

Even if we get a vaccine in one year, or some medication in 6 months... this is still fairly far away. And so far I haven't read/heard much what's supposed to happen until then. Are we currently just postponing the big blow by 2 months or so to get the hospitals prepared for it at least?! Will we just lock in all elderly and sick people for a year?! I don't know. And I surely wouldn't want to be the one to decide.
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    LukasCPH

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #121 on: March 21, 2020, 10:30 »
    Even if we get a vaccine in one year, or some medication in 6 months... this is still fairly far away. And so far I haven't read/heard much what's supposed to happen until then. Are we currently just postponing the big blow by 2 months or so to get the hospitals prepared for it at least?! Will we just lock in all elderly and sick people for a year?! I don't know. And I surely wouldn't want to be the one to decide.
    Test, then isolate & treat the positives.

    And people shouldn't be tested once, then be done with it. They should be tested several times. Per day.

    Obviously this doesn't need to be the full test every time. But temperature scanners at the entrance to every supermarket etc. would be a good first step.

    An interview with an epidemiologist "who helped defeat smallpox":
    https://www.wired.com/story/coronavirus-interview-larry-brilliant-smallpox-epidemiologist/

    A full lock-down, Italy style, can always ever be the first measure. Already there is fallout from it:
    https://twitter.com/andreabagnato/status/1240692360532471812

    This article even has a tl;dr aka. abstract at the top:
    https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

    Quote
    Summary of the article: Strong coronavirus measures today should only last a few weeks, there shouldn’t be a big peak of infections afterwards, and it can all be done for a reasonable cost to society, saving millions of lives along the way. If we don’t take these measures, tens of millions will be infected, many will die, along with anybody else that requires intensive care, because the healthcare system will have collapsed.
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    Flo

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #122 on: March 21, 2020, 11:39 »
    Singapore used the track and trace method and managed to control the outbreak pretty efficiently. However, to accomplish that they ordered several plane loads of tests, something they could do because they were one of the earliest countries to start combatting the virus. Fact is there aren't enough tests to even remotely follow the track, trace and isolate method in most Western countries. I know Germany is testing a lot of people, but here in the Netherlands, authorities have been forced to limit testing only to the elderly and vulnerable showing significant symptoms. This is also the reason why our death rate is so high compared to the number of confirmed cases.
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #123 on: March 21, 2020, 11:51 »
    yeah, I've read some of those articles about mitigation/suppression, but tbh, to me, they all seem to say basically nothing.

    The article Lukas quoted for example says that we need a suppression strategy, "The Hammer". Which means "act[ing] quickly and aggressively". Because a "heavy Hammer with strict social distancing measures, can definitely control the outbreak within weeks. It’s a matter of discipline, execution, and how much the population abides by the rules."

    What does this mean though? The guy on Twitter you quoted claims that most people are infected at work - wo what's the conclusion of that? Everyone stays at home for three week and we weld shut all doors like in China?!
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #124 on: March 21, 2020, 12:51 »
    here in the Netherlands, authorities have been forced to limit testing only to the elderly and vulnerable showing significant symptoms.

    It's quite difficult to get tested here, as well, from what I understand.

    To my knowledge, you'd have to be showing very clear symptoms, then you'd be tested for strep, influenza, and maybe a few other things. Only if those come back negative would you then be eligible for a coronavirus test.

    The exceptions to that would be if you had contact with someone who had tested positive, or had traveled to a high-risk area.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #125 on: March 21, 2020, 13:12 »
    It's quite difficult to get tested here, as well, from what I understand.

    To my knowledge, you'd have to be showing very clear symptoms, then you'd be tested for strep, influenza, and maybe a few other things. Only if those come back negative would you then be eligible for a coronavirus test.

    The exceptions to that would be if you had contact with someone who had tested positive, or had traveled to a high-risk area.
    Yeah, that's what the testing protocol was like here first. Only if you were showing symptoms, had been in contact with someone who was confirmed as infected, or traveled to China or northern Italy. Although my brother's girlfriend's parents both got the virus, father was in hospital for over a week before he was tested (though to be fair this was before the first case here was announced), mother got ill a couple days later but she was never tested, they just assumed she was infected also. But now even less people are tested. I don't know how countries like Germany have so many more tests than us.
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #126 on: March 21, 2020, 13:33 »
    Sweden is the same Flo, only those with very bad symptoms or Acute Respiratory infection are being tested. Not even medical staff. This is a Government decision. So our real figures I assume 3-4 higher so about 4000-5000
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #127 on: March 21, 2020, 13:42 »
    But now even less people are tested. I don't know how countries like Germany have so many more tests than us.

    I don't know what the exact numbers are for the Netherlands, but in Germany something between ~150-200k tests per week can be analysed. Under huge efforts those numbers could be stretched by another 30% or so, but that's it. So even here, mass testing is not an option, as it's just not possible.

    South Korea is testing 12000 people a day by the way, so (although the exact numbers are not known for Germany) it's actually not as much as media reports make it sound like. At that rate, it would still take them 12 years to test the whole country (once).

    edit: last week ~16000 people in Germany tested positive, so if we assume that the vast majority of tests returned negative (a number of 95% was circulating a couple of days ago, which probably has changed) we must be at the limit with that testing as well - and yes, also only testing those with clear symptons/records
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    Joelsim

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #128 on: March 21, 2020, 14:28 »
    Sweden is the same Flo, only those with very bad symptoms or Acute Respiratory infection are being tested. Not even medical staff. This is a Government decision. So our real figures I assume 3-4 higher so about 4000-5000

    When we had 1,200 confirmed cases, the estimated number of actual cases was in excess of 50,000.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #129 on: March 21, 2020, 15:05 »
    When we had 1,200 confirmed cases, the estimated number of actual cases was in excess of 50,000.

    Wow, much smaller country here though but very scary figures
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #130 on: March 21, 2020, 15:15 »
    When we had 1,200 confirmed cases, the estimated number of actual cases was in excess of 50,000.

    Over 50,000?
    I saw guesstimates for 20,000-50,000 at the same point.
    Depends what you want to believe I suppose.
    I take consolation from the fact that if true, the virus is a heck of a lot less lethal than any percentages based upon confirmed cases
    There are lots of numbers being batted about these days.
    Case in point regarding potential death toll, but an interesting read as it's not as inflammatory as much of the BBC's normal output.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

     

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    Joelsim

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #131 on: March 21, 2020, 15:48 »
    Yes, I’m inclined to think the death rate is actually way lower than the percentages we’re led to believe. If you look at the countries where there is loads of testing there are much fewer deaths per actual case. Countries such as Germany.

    In the UK and many other places it looks much higher, as I suspect there are tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of cases that are recovered from in isolation but which never get included in the stats because those people go nowhere near a hospital.
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #132 on: March 21, 2020, 16:35 »
    Yes, I’m inclined to think the death rate is actually way lower than the percentages we’re led to believe. If you look at the countries where there is loads of testing there are much fewer deaths per actual case. Countries such as Germany.

    it look like, yeah. Although the fact that in Germany many people who were initially tested (positive) were those coming back from work travels, holiday (skiing in the Alpes) and so on, may play its part as well, leading to a younger/fitter part of the population getting in touch with the virus.

    Just recently we also had the first positives in a retirement home, leading to 9 deaths pretty much immediately. All of them were old of course and had underlying medical condition, but it also shows that there's not much doubt that the virus is of high risk for those, no matter in which part of the world you're living.

    https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/neun-menschen-in-pflegeheim-an-corona-infektion-gestorben,Rto86kr

    Of course, as the article MV linked above pointed out, there's the possibility that the effects on the overall mortality rate in 2020 will be minor, but it's still worrying, what other effects it may have if many of those need help at the same time (like in Italy).
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #133 on: March 21, 2020, 16:55 »

    Just recently we also had the first positives in a retirement home, leading to 9 deaths pretty much immediately. All of them were old of course and had underlying medical condition, but it also shows that there's not much doubt that the virus is of high risk for those, no matter in which part of the world you're living.


     The very first case we had in my district was about 500 metres from where I live.................in a retirement home.
    I guess that visitors come from all over the place and that someone had recently returned from Italy.
     I have been outside just 3 times this week. This afternoon I went for a walk around and everything looked absolutely normal, right down to a gang of kids playing football and others generally socializing. That's why I don't think closing schools is the greatest of ideas.
     A stark contrast to the big cities, where the changes implemented have had the biggest impact on the way of life.
     Not surprising therefore, that opinions differ.................at least for the moment.
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #134 on: March 21, 2020, 17:00 »
    In the UK and many other places it looks much higher, as I suspect there are tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of cases that are recovered from in isolation but which never get included in the stats because those people go nowhere near a hospital.

    That's a good point that I hadn't fully considered.

    I imagine there are probably three loose categories:

     - Those who get the sick, suspect they have the virus, but recover easily enough and never really know because the test wasn't available to them.

     - Those who get virus but show such mild symptoms that it never occurs to them that they had the COVID-19.

     - Those who get the virus but show no signs at all (unless I'm wrong about that being a possibility).

    Either way, I don't think the powers-that-be have even come close to estimating the true cost and lasting impact that all these shut-downs are going to have. I have a number of friends who had opened their own coffee shops in just the past few years, and others who have been part of the rapidly-expanding microbrewery movement. I've no idea how they're going to survive this. These particular breweries were in-house-only operations, so they have no retail products on the shelves to carry them over.  The coffee shops can still offer takeout service, but none of the places that I'm referring to are even set up properly for that. They don't have drive-thru windows, so unless they setup a table on the sidewalk outside their business, they have a very limited capacity to serve their customers. And I've no idea what rules are even in place to determine what's allowed and what's not under those circumstances.

    So how is this supposed to work? All landlords, and utilities, and town taxes, etc are just going to wave all fees? Not likely. Property evictions and utility shut-offs have been prohibited for now, but how much money in back-pay and taxes is going to accumulate? This is just completely uncharted territory.

    Another friend of a friend owns multiple restaurants/bars and package (liquor) stores. The restaurants have had to close, but supposedly the sales at package stores has been astronomical that it's going to hold-over the other businesses...for now.

    This is insane.
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #135 on: March 21, 2020, 17:09 »
    The very first case we had in my district was about 500 metres from where I live.................in a retirement home.
    I guess that visitors come from all over the place and that someone had recently returned from Italy.
     I have been outside just 3 times this week. This afternoon I went for a walk around and everything looked absolutely normal, right down to a gang of kids playing football and others generally socializing. That's why I don't think closing schools is the greatest of ideas.
     A stark contrast to the big cities, where the changes implemented have had the biggest impact on the way of life.
     Not surprising therefore, that opinions differ.................at least for the moment.

    Most people are starting to observe social distancing. Sadly there are still some who aren’t.
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #136 on: March 21, 2020, 17:16 »
    Pics of Central London this morning, a Saturday. Piccadilly Circus, Leicester Square, Carnaby St, Trafalgar Square...

    https://www.facebook.com/657367045/posts/10156695896177046/
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #137 on: March 22, 2020, 00:15 »
    Could anyone more knowledgeable than I am tell me more about this chloroquine stuff or hydroxychloroquine?

    Pr Didier Raoult of Marseille is an expert in this field and says it works miracle on coronavirus patients. It's a medication that is traditionally used to treat malaria. So it's also said that if Sub-Saharian African countries are pretty kept from the virus, it could be because they are used to getting such treatment to beat malaria and that's how they could be immune to it. Nothing to do with heat, they say ...

    Could it be really a miracle stuff?

    Or course, then, we'd have to discuss the side effects linked to that medication ...

    Post Merge: March 22, 2020, 00:19
    Pics of Central London this morning, a Saturday. Piccadilly Circus, Leicester Square, Carnaby St, Trafalgar Square...

    https://www.facebook.com/657367045/posts/10156695896177046/

    Reminds me of Eugène Atget's Paris photographies in the early 20th century

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #138 on: March 22, 2020, 04:09 »
    here in West Aus you can only get tested if you are displaying symptoms AND can prove that you have travelled in the last week or have had contact with someone already diagnosed.

    essentially, even if you are displaying symptoms you cant get tested for half the time.

    and then they wonder why our numbers are so much less than the rest of the country/world.


    People are starting to take notice of the social distancing thing ... but still not closed schools or workplaces.  We are pretty heavy into mining and oil and gas though, and many of those companies are putting in work from home strategies and the like.  Still, its getting pretty real
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #139 on: March 22, 2020, 08:57 »
    Could anyone more knowledgeable than I am tell me more about this chloroquine stuff or hydroxychloroquine?

    Pr Didier Raoult of Marseille is an expert in this field and says it works miracle on coronavirus patients. It's a medication that is traditionally used to treat malaria. So it's also said that if Sub-Saharian African countries are pretty kept from the virus, it could be because they are used to getting such treatment to beat malaria and that's how they could be immune to it. Nothing to do with heat, they say ...

    Could it be really a miracle stuff?

    Or course, then, we'd have to discuss the side effects linked to that medication ...

    Post Merge: March 22, 2020, 00:19
    Reminds me of Eugène Atget's Paris photographies in the early 20th century



    This drug has been approved for compassionate use in the US, anecdotal feedback suggests it helps and is now going into proper clinical trials.

    By compassionate use, I mean when all else looks to have failed, as a final resort. Until the clinical trials have been completed.

    In Africa, authorities have reported several overdoses of this drug already, sadly.
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #140 on: March 22, 2020, 09:08 »
    it seem to have helped for some, yeah. But from those ~25 subjects there are also 5 who didn't complete the test though, as one died and four others showed symptoms so bad, that they couldn't continue.
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #141 on: March 22, 2020, 09:51 »
    here in West Aus you can only get tested if you are displaying symptoms AND can prove that you have travelled in the last week or have had contact with someone already diagnosed.

    This is interesting because when the same thing happens here, everyone blames Trump. Lots of finger-pointing and blaming going on. But since this virus has successfully found its way across the globe, I don't see how blaming any politician helps anything. It would seem that Coronavirus was going to coronavirus no matter who our world leaders were.

    Quote
    People are starting to take notice of the social distancing thing ...
    I was at my local park area yesterday that has miles of walking and bike paths. It was as crowded as I've ever seen it, and the parking lot was at capacity. It's been an unusually mild Spring for us this year, and maybe people are extra anxious to get outside with all the restrictions going into effect and because of the general state of things.

    What surprised me though was the size of these groups. Definitely bigger than what you'd usually see. Instead of groups of two to four, which would be more typical, I was consistently seeing groups of 8 to 10, which is not normal. I don't know if entire families are sticking together and traveling as one, or if friends are just thinking that huddling in small groups is somehow consistent with "social distancing." It just struck me as really odd, and I've no idea what the explanation is.

    If you didn't know there was a pandemic going on, you'd have found no clues in these groups of people.

    I still don't see how the impending shut-downs are going to produce anything other than massive failures. They want to force everyone to stay at home, but then you won't even be able to buy paint or any number of other items to do work around the house unless you've anticipated every project and stockpiled ahead of time.

    And sure, you can go outside and ride your bike, but what if you need some bike repair/maintenance as a result of that? Or if a kitchen appliance breaks and needs replacing, does this mean that any and all business will now have to be siphoned through Amazon? I mean, the list is endless of things one might need to carry on with life.

    There were stories in the news yesterday of long lines of people at the gun stores, buying guns and stocking up on ammunition. Regardless of what one might think of America's gun culture, these are the exact types of restrictions that gun owners have always feared, but have also always been promised would never happen.

    Oh, no, we don't want to take your guns, or put severe restrictions in place regarding purchasing and owning guns. We want only "common sense" laws on the books, so that the 'wrong people' don't have access to weapons. But for most of you, you can still have your guns.

    It just never occurred to most people that the government would simply close all stores. This just feeds into the paranoia, and does nothing to promote a sense of trust or independence among the masses. These restrictions are actually making the situation more dangerous. Overbearing government control is precisely what half the country is consumed with on a daily basis. So when it starts to manifest right before their eyes, the inevitable outcome will be more division, less trust, and a validation of all their previous concerns.

    No guns for you! Say the very same politicians who think that going to war is a clever idea.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #142 on: March 22, 2020, 13:29 »
    Blimey, I’d completely forgotten. I must go to the gun shop and stock up on ammo before the lockdown.

    What a bunch of morons.
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  • Armchair Cyclist

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #143 on: March 22, 2020, 13:38 »
    We are pretty heavy into mining and oil and gas though, and many of those companies are putting in work from home strategies and the like.

    Is that not just gardening?
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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #144 on: March 22, 2020, 14:10 »
    as there was some talk in the media about China "returning to normal life" and so on... here are two little Twitter stories (one is in German, but with lots of pictures) about how it's handled when you arrive in Beijing at the moment (which - officially at least - never had more than 100 or so positive cases to begin with):

    https://twitter.com/yangxifan/status/1241609742964764673

    https://twitter.com/LukasHenselEcon/status/1240494951177302016
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  • Flo

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #145 on: March 22, 2020, 15:43 »
    When we had 1,200 confirmed cases, the estimated number of actual cases was in excess of 50,000.
    We may be able to use Germany's figures to estimate the number of cases per country.
    Germany has 93 confirmed deaths and 24,000 confirmed cases. Netherlands has 179 confirmed deaths --> assuming 93 deaths per 24,000 cases this means our total cases should be around 46,000.

    The UK has 243 deaths --> 62,500 cases.
    Sweden has 21 deaths --> 5500 cases.

    This assumes that
    1. Germany isn't just at an earlier point in the outbreak which would mean deaths haven't caught up yet --> Germany had 16 cases mid Feb, UK 9 mid Feb, Sweden and NL both confirmed their first case later on, so if anything Germany is further along than the other three countries
    2. Similar level of health care --> I think this is a fair assumption, Germany has a high ratio of intensive care beds but the other countries aren't at capacity yet so this doesn't influence the death rate yet
    3. Similar demographic --> I had a look on the internet, seems Germany has higher % of elderly (70+) compared to UK and NL, similar to Sweden. So if anything, you'd expect Germany to have more deaths.
    4. Similar culture --> in southern Europe, it is not uncommon for 3 generations to live in the same home, which means a bigger exposure and bigger risk for the elderly. This is not so much the case in northern Europe.

    So I think we can conclude that the number of infected people is likely to be much, much higher than we know now in most of Europe, and even in Germany there will be many people carrying the virus with no symptoms. However those people are less likely to infect others so it is not as big of a deal except from a 'herd immunity' point of view.

    And we can also conclude that Germany is doing a very good job controlling the outbreak. Perhaps their strategy can be compared to that of various Asian countries like Singapore. It is clearly an effective method but unfortunately it simply cannot be done in every country.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #146 on: March 22, 2020, 16:45 »
    We may be able to use Germany's figures to estimate the number of cases per country.
    Germany has 93 confirmed deaths and 24,000 confirmed cases. Netherlands has 179 confirmed deaths --> assuming 93 deaths per 24,000 cases this means our total cases should be around 46,000.

    The UK has 243 deaths --> 62,500 cases.
    Sweden has 21 deaths --> 5500 cases.



     Factor in that the the UK is reliant upon something called the NHS and I make the figure to be:
    UK 243 deaths --> 243 cases. :lol

    My niece was telling me that there are supposed to be 2 or 3 cases in her small estate.
    Trouble is that they haven't been tested, so know one knows for sure.
    Another thing that could make an accurate count impossible is that we are in the middle of the Flu season.
    If the numbers for flu in the UK are correct, then this year we are experiencing an anomaly, with extremely low numbers and a death rate about 1/100th of the norm.
    This also doesn't seem possible to me, given that we have had perfect weather conditions for flu, this year.

     All the more interesting therefore, that according to the governments weekly reports, the number of reported flu like cases has double in the past week.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/873734/National_influenze_report_19_March_2020_week_12.pdf
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  • « Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 16:55 by Mellow Velo »

    Joelsim

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #147 on: March 22, 2020, 16:58 »
    The UK’s capacity is already at full, although a further 3,000 beds have been made available from the private hospitals. The NHS here is severely underfunded, that’s due to years of a government that would like to privatise it being in charge. Their privatisation plans will be set back by years because of this, thankfully.

    This is a hard listen, from a few days ago.

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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #148 on: March 22, 2020, 17:27 »
    I must go to the gun shop and stock up on ammo before the lockdown.

    What really surprises me is that these same people aren't already fully stocked on ammo, as this is the type of scenario that they're always so afraid of. That's the only thing that's really puzzling to me.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 P/B Wuhan, China
    « Reply #149 on: March 22, 2020, 23:04 »
    The new symptom which has just been announced in recent days is the loss of smell and taste. What makes this symptom particularly crucial is the fact that it is quite prevalent in people who are otherwise asymptomatic or showing relatively minor symptoms, and of course whilst the other symptoms tend to overlap with flu and other illnesses and can be quite common, this one is pretty rare meaning it is a very good indicator of the virus.

    Interestingly, at least 3 very close family friends all mentioned a loss of taste and smell last week, including one friend whom we had over for dinner a few nights ago (this was before this symptom was announced). To me this confirms what we knew already, which is that the virus is much more prevalent than tests suggests (I have numerous friends who are showing the symptoms to various degrees, but to me this is a much more definitive symptom) and that the amount of asymptomatic people carrying the virus is very, very high. It is difficult to place these things, but I would guess that the virus is sweeping the population even quicker than what the medical advisers and scientists have said, just based on the amount of friends here in the UK who have said they have displayed the symptoms and have gone into self isolation.
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