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just some guy

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Quintana, Quintana and Winner
« on: September 21, 2020, 18:34 »
https://twitter.com/AFP_Sport/status/1308088530535677952?

All official the Colombian group under investigation
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    Mellow Velo

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #1 on: September 21, 2020, 18:48 »
     Well, if they've been doping they've been doing it wrong. :D

    Google translate doesn't make things very clear, but could they be talking about the lack of a TUE?

    " ...prescription to an athlete without medical justification of a substance or method prohibited within the framework of a sporting event, aid in the use and incitement for the use of a substance or method prohibited for athletes, transport and possession of a substance or method prohibited for the purpose of use by an athlete without medical justification."
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    t-72

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #2 on: September 21, 2020, 19:07 »
    Since there doesn't appear to be any major performance benefit, let me guess: the inhaler/nebulizer and salbutamol or ventoline dosing, again?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #3 on: September 21, 2020, 19:34 »
    Team Dr and 1 other arrested.

    Saline and some other bits and found ie IV equipment.

    Based around a small group within the team
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  • t-72

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #4 on: September 21, 2020, 20:51 »
    ....
    (on second thought, deleted, after some friendly criticism from DB-COOP)
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  • « Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 23:04 by t-72 »

    DB-Coop

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #5 on: September 21, 2020, 21:49 »
    I am huge fan of #arkea Arkea-Samsic ;) and I wonder how you can get rid of a couple of way too expensive riders that don't perform to expectations before the end of contract? Our sponsor's funding may be drying up due to covid etc....

    (just a thought...)

    Damn, even for a sub-forum about cheating in professional road cycling that is pretty sinister...

    Moral wise and as far as risk-aversion goes I just can't see anybody doing something this, for lack of a better word, evil. It is one step away from sabotaging the brakes of your own riders to achieve the same on the ladder of cold and cynical behavior.
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  • t-72

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #6 on: September 21, 2020, 23:02 »
    Damn, even for a sub-forum about cheating in professional road cycling that is pretty sinister...

    It was a knee-jerk reaction, I admit,  to what I read as very quick and very clear hand-washing by the team management, pointing to a group within the team. It just isn't very credible that your key rider and major investment is completely out of control! At best, there has been some conveniently closed eyelids and they were suddenly opened at the time they were tumbling out of the GC. 

    Let me take it all back and wait for the system to do its job, "health products" and equipment that can be used for doping can also be legal drugs and equipment needed to adminster them so that they will work.   
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #7 on: September 22, 2020, 04:03 »
    There must of been a reason for the police knocking on the door in the first place, no?  :angel

    And if they found IVs? Well...aren't those pretty much verboten? Period?  :-x

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #8 on: September 22, 2020, 06:15 »
    There is still the no needle policy AFAIK DB so yep

    Team statement

    https://twitter.com/Arkea_Samsic/status/1308135594464247808?
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  • t-72

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #9 on: September 22, 2020, 07:56 »
    There must of been a reason for the police knocking on the door in the first place, no?  :angel
    ...
    And if they found IVs? Well...aren't those pretty much verboten? Period?  :-x

    Intravenous for performance improvement is forbidden, but what about treating heat exhaustion/dehydration? Not sure about  the correct English terms, but when your body is so dehydrated you just puke and lose more fluid if someone gives you something to drink? I witnessed a 100 km evacuation in the desert once, and I can imagine that medical personell may have intravenous in their extended first-aid kits because it is more practical and ultimately cheaper (from a society perspective) than evacuation. When I served in the infantry, we had, and I received training on how to use it, including testing it on myself. I wasn’t the medic but in the group of additional people with some medical training supposed to help if the medic was unavailable (many possible reasons for that in the infantry.)

    Rural France isn´t the outback, but the medical equipment that can be misused in a performance improvement perspective can also be used for legitimate medical purposes, and help save lives - or at least cut evacuation costs. Heat exhaustion example perhaps not the best, but my only personal experience which is relevant. We were very close to having to call for a helicopter rescue on that occasion, but it was not very clear it would speed up the evacuation.

    I guess there must be some kind of “sealed bag” of normally forbidden stuff in every medic’s toolkit and explanations must be filed if opened?
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #10 on: September 22, 2020, 08:49 »
     Warren Barguil has dropped out of the French team for the world championship.
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  • Servais Knavendish

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #11 on: September 22, 2020, 08:56 »
    Matt Rendell not convinced anything to see here:

    https://twitter.com/mrendell/status/1308121624651198464?s=20
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #13 on: September 22, 2020, 11:14 »
    Intravenous for performance improvement is forbidden, but what about treating heat exhaustion/dehydration? Not sure about  the correct English terms, but when your body is so dehydrated you just puke and lose more fluid if someone gives you something to drink? I witnessed a 100 km evacuation in the desert once, and I can imagine that medical personell may have intravenous in their extended first-aid kits because it is more practical and ultimately cheaper (from a society perspective) than evacuation. When I served in the infantry, we had, and I received training on how to use it, including testing it on myself. I wasn’t the medic but in the group of additional people with some medical training supposed to help if the medic was unavailable (many possible reasons for that in the infantry.)

    Rural France isn´t the outback, but the medical equipment that can be misused in a performance improvement perspective can also be used for legitimate medical purposes, and help save lives - or at least cut evacuation costs. Heat exhaustion example perhaps not the best, but my only personal experience which is relevant. We were very close to having to call for a helicopter rescue on that occasion, but it was not very clear it would speed up the evacuation.

    I guess there must be some kind of “sealed bag” of normally forbidden stuff in every medic’s toolkit and explanations must be filed if opened?

    There is a 'no needles' policy - so riders cannot have IV fluids after a stage.   If they are that dehydrated, they need to withdraw from the race.

    And the teams travel with ambulances and TdF medical personell ... who would be the ones administering fluids etc in an emergency situation.  Team Dr's (or private Dr's as this one was NOT actually team staff but was Quintana's personal Dr) should not be travelling with banned methods or substances
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  • t-72

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #14 on: September 22, 2020, 11:33 »
    There is a 'no needles' policy - so riders cannot have IV fluids after a stage.   If they are that dehydrated, they need to withdraw from the race.

    My post was about the equipment that medical personell can have access to, not about what riders can take for restitution. One of the missing links in this case is that the police department found something that can be used for doping, and my point was that medical equipment that can be used for legitimate purposes can also be used for doping. Probably there is a way to separate the two.

    The medic in my infantry unit carried some pretty strong drugs (narcotics, illegal for recreational use) but it wasn't like I could decide I wanted some of that myselfm on a day to day basis. On the other hand, if I had been shot?

    As I wrote, heat exhaustion is probably not the best example, but it isn't unrealistic in a summertime bike race. 

    The missing piece is why they report they found health products and equipment for doping, yet did not stop the riders from continuing the race.
    This case doesn't look anywhere near as strong as the case against Max Hauke, at least not yet.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #16 on: September 22, 2020, 14:00 »
    My post was about the equipment that medical personell can have access to, not about what riders can take for restitution. One of the missing links in this case is that the police department found something that can be used for doping, and my point was that medical equipment that can be used for legitimate purposes can also be used for doping. Probably there is a way to separate the two.

    The medic in my infantry unit carried some pretty strong drugs (narcotics, illegal for recreational use) but it wasn't like I could decide I wanted some of that myselfm on a day to day basis. On the other hand, if I had been shot?

    As I wrote, heat exhaustion is probably not the best example, but it isn't unrealistic in a summertime bike race. 

    The missing piece is why they report they found health products and equipment for doping, yet did not stop the riders from continuing the race.
    This case doesn't look anywhere near as strong as the case against Max Hauke, at least not yet.

    yep sorry - I did edit my post and add to it when I read it properly :lol
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  • Servais Knavendish

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #17 on: September 22, 2020, 16:14 »
    https://twitter.com/mrendell/status/1308372177167810561?

    Yes been following Matt's comments - precis = 'nothing much to see here';  I am hoping very much that is the case.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #18 on: September 22, 2020, 16:55 »
    There will be something as there is the no needle policy, how much more?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #20 on: September 23, 2020, 05:28 »
    right.  So much for the Arkea line of 'not employees of or otherwise associated with the team'  :fp
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Quintana, Quintana and Winner
    « Reply #21 on: September 23, 2020, 06:03 »
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