Mens Road Cycling

Fleur · « **Reply #30 on:** April 16, 2012, 15:29 »

Quote from: Il Grillo on April 15, 2012, 21:57

It hurts me to see you put Cavendish over someone like Boonen. But understandable when looking at your name. ;D

But do you honestly find 14 Tour de France stages better than 6 Monuments, 3 classics and 10 semi-classics?

You know what hurts me? That he put Cav over Alberto.

Lots of stage wins + WC

vs.

Tour x2(or x3), Giro (x2), Vuelta, whole lot of 1 week stage races, + bunch of stage wins.

Fleur · « **Reply #31 on:** April 16, 2012, 15:35 »

1. Alberto Contador
2. Fabian Cancellara
3. Tom Boonen
4. Mark Cavendish
5. Cadel Evans
6. Philippe Gilbert
7. Samuel Sanchez
8. Alejandro Valverde
9. Joaquin Rodriguez
10. Vincenzo Nibali

Il Grillo · « **Reply #32 on:** April 16, 2012, 17:06 »

Quote from: Capt_Cavman on April 16, 2012, 15:01

Does adding up hurt as well?

You can just count up wins, give those wins some sort of weighting dependent on how Belgian you are and come up with some sort of ranking.

But I looked at it a bit more holistically. Which riders will go down in history as overwhelmingly the best of the time, which as very good and then the rest. I've also tended to focus on what the rider has been doing in the last few years to make it a question of current 'topness' rather than how much silverware has been accrued over a long career.

So...

Cancellara, untouchable in the TT for many years until the recent emergence of Martin and the man to beat in the cobbled classics for the past three years.

Cavendish, totally dominant in sprinting for the last four years.

Contador, the best GT rider by a fair margin currently.

Gilbert, dominant in the Ardennes style races.

Boonen, the best cobbled guy if the real best cobbled guy is injured.

Gilbert's position in that elite group of four is looking a bit shaky though. Unless he gets some results soon the list should read: the three Cs, then the two Belgians a bit further down, then Evans, then Schleck, then the rest.

If Cancellara is untouchable then why hasn't he won a classic since 2010? He had plenty of oppertunities. You're also contradicting your self here, Boonen just won 2 Monuments and 2 classics in one season. You're talking as if he's ancient history. While Cancellara lost his time trial title to Tony Martin. Boonen has dominated 'his' classics for many years. If it wasn't for Devolder in the Ronde 2008/2009 Boonen might have won some extra Monuments. He was clearly the strongest in 2009.

Riders just can't dominate each season, look at Gilbert. The thing is: champions always come back.

I'm sorry for Cancellara, but he should know better than riding in the feed zone without his hands on the handlebars. Rookie mistake: let your domestiques get your stuff. He's only been the best on the cobbles in one year to be honest. It's not Boonen's fault he crashed because of Cavendish after all

That's the only reason why he wasn't good enough in 2011.

Il Grillo · « **Reply #33 on:** April 16, 2012, 17:11 »

Quote from: sublimit on April 16, 2012, 15:24

Not enough love for J-Rod.. this must change!
disclaimer - This list includes some current form and also overall class.

1.Evans
2.J-Rod
3 .Boonen
4 S Sanchez
5.Gilbert
6.Cancelllara
7.Cavendish
8.Nibali
9.Freire
10.Valverde

You can start with explaining why Jrod is second in that list ;D
That's why I made this thread after all, to hear you guy's opinions.

Capt_Cavman · « **Reply #34 on:** April 16, 2012, 17:45 »

Quote from: Il Grillo on April 16, 2012, 17:06

If Cancellara is untouchable then why hasn't he won a classic since 2010? ...

I didn't say he was untouchable in the Classics. First you had problems with simple addition and now with reading. What sort of education are you getting? I thought it was crap here.

Il Grillo · « **Reply #35 on:** April 16, 2012, 17:56 »

Well you base your list on domination in a specific area. Cancellara hasn't dominated in time trials and classics last year, so he isn't untouchable in anything. You can speculate he would have won everything in his path this year without the crash, but I can do the same with Boonen last year.

If you're basing this on 2009-2012 I don't see how Cancellara was the only man to beat in the classics. But of course this isn't about just the last 3 years, but overall career of a cyclist.

Slow Rider · « **Reply #36 on:** April 16, 2012, 19:04 »

I had Cavendish over Boonen as well. The way Cavendish has dominated sprints in the past few years is incredible: 20 Tour stages in 4 years. Current World Champion, MSR winner, points classifications in all three GC's... And he's still only 26. Cavendish is one of the all-time greats in sprinting, and I think placing him above Boonen is pretty reasonable.

Boonen is one of the two absolute greats on the cobbles right now. In 2010 Cancellara was clearly stronger, in 2011 he was the strongest of the field (by far) as well, but couldn't win. Boonen dominated in 2012, but with Cancellara absent. Boonen does have more monument victories overall, and the WC victory, but the way Cancellara dominated TT's for years now gives him the edge over Boonen too. And why I placed Contador above everyone else deserves no explanation I think.

In retrospect I did make a mistake in placing Gilbert over Boonen. Gilbert had a great year in 2011, and been great before that too, but not as great as the above mentioned four. There are a lot of possible orders of these five though, I think all of them are worthy of a first place on such a list.
Thus, my top-5 would become:
1. Alberto Contador
2. Mark Cavendish
3. Fabian Cancellara
4. Tom Boonen
5. Phillipe Gilbert

just some guy · « **Reply #37 on:** April 16, 2012, 19:19 »

Quote from: Slow Rider on April 16, 2012, 19:04

I had Cavendish over Boonen as well. The way Cavendish has dominated sprints in the past few years is incredible: 20 Tour stages in 4 years. Current World Champion, MSR winner, points classifications in all three GC's... And he's still only 26. Cavendish is one of the all-time greats in sprinting, and I think placing him above Boonen is pretty reasonable.

Boonen is one of the two absolute greats on the cobbles right now. In 2010 Cancellara was clearly stronger, in 2011 he was the strongest of the field (by far) as well, but couldn't win. Boonen dominated in 2012, but with Cancellara absent. Boonen does have more monument victories overall, and the WC victory, but the way Cancellara dominated TT's for years now gives him the edge over Boonen too. And why I placed Contador above everyone else deserves no explanation I think.

In retrospect I did make a mistake in placing Gilbert over Boonen. Gilbert had a great year in 2011, and been great before that too, but not as great as the above mentioned four. There are a lot of possible orders of these five though, I think all of them are worthy of a first place on such a list.
Thus, my top-5 would become:
1. Alberto Contador
2. Mark Cavendish
3. Fabian Cancellara
4. Tom Boonen
5. Phillipe Gilbert

FWIW He hasn´t won the points jersey at the Giro

that is usually a GC guy

Slow Rider · « **Reply #38 on:** April 16, 2012, 19:46 »

You're right, I should have checked Wikipedia before writing that

Il Grillo · « **Reply #39 on:** April 16, 2012, 21:07 »

Quote from: Slow Rider on April 16, 2012, 19:04

I had Cavendish over Boonen as well. The way Cavendish has dominated sprints in the past few years is incredible: 20 Tour stages in 4 years. Current World Champion, MSR winner, points classifications in all three GC's... And he's still only 26. Cavendish is one of the all-time greats in sprinting, and I think placing him above Boonen is pretty reasonable.

Boonen is one of the two absolute greats on the cobbles right now. In 2010 Cancellara was clearly stronger, in 2011 he was the strongest of the field (by far) as well, but couldn't win. Boonen dominated in 2012, but with Cancellara absent. Boonen does have more monument victories overall, and the WC victory, but the way Cancellara dominated TT's for years now gives him the edge over Boonen too. And why I placed Contador above everyone else deserves no explanation I think.

In retrospect I did make a mistake in placing Gilbert over Boonen. Gilbert had a great year in 2011, and been great before that too, but not as great as the above mentioned four. There are a lot of possible orders of these five though, I think all of them are worthy of a first place on such a list.
Thus, my top-5 would become:
1. Alberto Contador
2. Mark Cavendish
3. Fabian Cancellara
4. Tom Boonen
5. Phillipe Gilbert

It's "easier" to dominate sprints than dominate classics though. Classics are far more unpredictable. Boonen absolutely dominated the cobbled classics in 2005, 2006 and 2012. Cancellara only really dominated in 2010.

We'll see how Cavendish does against Kittel this year. Because when Boonen was 25 years old everyone was calling him one of the greatest ever. But then came guys like Cancellara.

Winning 7 Monuments in a career is also very impressive and he's only 31. Petacchi and Cipollini have all won 20+ GT stages in the span of 4 years, but when was the last time someone won that many Monuments? You have to go back to Sean Kelly, king of the classics.

Time trials are always won by who ever is the strongest. Classic races aren't always won by the strongest, they require tactic. That's why I rate classic victories much higher than time trial victories.

Capt_Cavman · « **Reply #40 on:** April 16, 2012, 21:26 »

Forget GT sprint wins. As has been pointed out, the Giro used to have loads of sprints when it suited the likes of Petacchi and Cipo, now the green jersey is usually high up on GC.

TdF sprint wins is what counts and no-one has ever come close in a whole career to what Cavendish has achieved in just 4 years.

So not 'easy', no. Unheard of. What Boonen's done is great and I admire him, but as you yourself said, it's hardly unheard of.

Il Grillo · « **Reply #41 on:** April 16, 2012, 23:29 »

Because the Tour doesn't have loads of sprints right :

2004 was the flattest edition in ages, all the rest had about the same amount of flat stages as the Tour. The best sprinters in the world where at the Giro. Often they were missing at the Tour actually. Robbie Mcewen got beaten a lot in the Giro, but in the Tour his competition was less good because often Petacchi and Cipollini weren't invited.

If you want to talk about records:

Co-record holder

2x Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne: 2007 en 2009.
3x Gent-Wevelgem: 2004, 2011 en 2012.
3x Ronde van Vlaanderen: 2005, 2006 en 2012.
4x Parijs-Roubaix: 2005, 2008, 2009 en 2012.

Only record holder:

5x E3-Prijs Harelbeke: 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 en 2012.
2x dubbel Ronde van Vlaanderen en Parijs-Roubaix: 2005, 2012
E3-Prijs Harelbeke, Gent-Wevelgem, Ronde van Vlaanderen in 1 seizoen: 2012
E3-Prijs Harelbeke, Gent-Wevelgem, Ronde van Vlaanderen en Parijs-Roubaix in 1 seizoen: 2012
4x eindoverwinning + 20 etappezeges in Ronde van Qatar

Ps: Freddy Maertens and Eddy Merckx did win that many stages in the span of 4 years. They won prologues, time trial, hilly stages and mountain stages.

The Hitch · « **Reply #42 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:13 »

Quote from: just some guy on April 16, 2012, 19:19

FWIW He hasn´t won the points jersey at the Giro

that is usually a GC guy

Also you need to finish the Giro to win the points jersey.

The Hitch · « **Reply #43 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:18 »

No way is Cav above Boonen. No way is he above Gilbert. And no way is he above Cadel.

DinZ · « **Reply #44 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:25 »

Quote from: The Hitch on April 17, 2012, 01:18

No way is Cav above Boonen. No way is he above Gilbert. And no way is he above Cadel.

I agree with Boonen. I am close on Gilbert (but still think he needs a couple more great seasons). but Cadel? not even the best GC rider in his time. Has won one Tour? Sorry but think a sprinter that has utterly dominated in his time and that has won so many stages deserves to rank higher than Cadel.

AG · « **Reply #45 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:25 »

Quote from: The Hitch on April 17, 2012, 01:18

No way is Cav above Boonen. No way is he above Gilbert. And no way is he above Cadel.

Agreed

Top 10 for me would be
1 - Contador
2 - Boonen
3 - Cancellara
4 - Gilbert
5 - Evans
6 - Cavendish

after that it gets a bit murkier but I would include
Sanchez, Menchov, A Schleck and perhaps Nibali

DinZ · « **Reply #46 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:37 »

Quote from: AG on April 17, 2012, 01:25

Agreed

Top 10 for me would be
1 - Contador
2 - Boonen
3 - Cancellara
4 - Gilbert
5 - Evans
6 - Cavendish

after that it gets a bit murkier but I would include
Sanchez, Menchov, A Schleck and perhaps Nibali

1. Alberto Contador
2. Mark Cavendish
3. Fabian Cancellara
4. Tom Boonen
5. Phillipe Gilbert

I personally like that top 5. difficult with order though as oranges and apples but think i would have Boonen at 2. think you could pretty much argue the case for any of the other 3

after them, it gets much harder. Robbie McEwen? for consistent wins, over so many years, in many cases without the resources that other sprinters had?

Cadel?
Valverde?
Oscar Freire?
Nibbles?

DinZ · « **Reply #47 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:41 »

Interesting

reading cyclingranking website the top 10 would be (slightly confused as to what is included in contadors ranking here)

1. Evans
2. Valverde
3. Freire
4. Cunego
5. Hincapie
6. Sanchez
7. McEwen
8. O'Grady
9. Garzelli
10. Di Luca

AG · « **Reply #48 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:46 »

hmm - so Boonen, Cancellara and Gilbert dont get a gig at all ? ;D

interesting list that

DinZ · « **Reply #49 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:53 »

Boonen was 143 on the list Gilbert was 156
Cunego 88

very opaque calculation though. as yet not found a way to see what makes up the score (CQ does not seem to offer an overall ranking)

Dr. Horrible the Mad Elephant Man · « **Reply #50 on:** April 17, 2012, 03:07 »

Career CQ points of riders mentioned in this thread who I could be bothered looking up.

Rebellin 20715 (According to CQ he signed for Miche for the rest of the year on the 12th of April, not raced this year yet though is only borderline active)
Valverde 14990
Boonen 14059
Freire 13772
Evans 13546
Petacchi 12942
McEwen 12591
Cunego 12003
Samu Sanchez 11888
Cancellara 11833
Gilbert 11728
Vinokourov 11627
Hushovd 10665
Leiphiemer 10339
Basso 9951
Menchov 9442
Contador 9269
J. Rodriguez 9269
O'Grady 9059
F Schleck 9057
Hincapie 8242
Nibali 7778
Cavendish 6717
A. Schleck 5779
Martin 4512
Wiggins 3795
P. Sagan 3356

Getting over 10000 seems to be an excellent achievement, Rebellin's 20000+ is quite an effort.

ram · « **Reply #51 on:** April 17, 2012, 03:17 »

Quote from: DinZ on April 17, 2012, 01:25

I agree with Boonen. I am close on Gilbert (but still think he needs a couple more great seasons). but Cadel? not even the best GC rider in his time. Has won one Tour? Sorry but think a sprinter that has utterly dominated in his time and that has won so many stages deserves to rank higher than Cadel.

And I second this, he may not be everyone's cup of tea, but there's no denying his class. I'm not sure Gilbert deserves so much credit for being, in essence, a one season wonder, a brilliant wonder it was, but Cav has been sprinting like this for a few years now.

AG · « **Reply #52 on:** April 17, 2012, 03:45 »

see to me Cavendish is down on the list because most of his wins are in stage races and not in one day races.

Winning a stage - even one in the Tour - is still only winning against half the field. The GC guys are not really interested in racing on the flat ... not interested in making it hard or doing much beyond surviving and conserving energy.

In a one day race, there is no tomorrow. There is no reason to conserve energy or not go full tilt.

That is why I put Gilbert above Cav. His accomplishments (2 x GdL, LBL, 2 x AGR, FW, PT, 2 x Omloop etc) are better than achieving loads of wins within stage races. For mine, Cav's greatest accomplishments are the WC and MSR ... which is the only reason you might argue his case for being higher up on the list. I am not dissing his sprint wins - they are great. But lets keep them in perspective.

Evans accomplishments (1 TdF, 2 x 2nd, good results in Giro and Vuelta, 1 x WC, 1 x FW, couple of 1 week stage races) .... way more impressive than 20 sprint wins.

ram · « **Reply #53 on:** April 17, 2012, 03:56 »

Anyway, it's all so subjective and they're, on paper, the best at their specialities (cue one sad bloke/blokette to say sooking is a speciality) and that's what matters doesn't it?

I didn't believe that anyone putting Cav so high was subject to grilling.

DinZ · « **Reply #54 on:** April 17, 2012, 04:03 »

Quote from: AG on April 17, 2012, 03:45

see to me Cavendish is down on the list because most of his wins are in stage races and not in one day races.

Winning a stage - even one in the Tour - is still only winning against half the field. The GC guys are not really interested in racing on the flat ... not interested in making it hard or doing much beyond surviving and conserving energy.

In a one day race, there is no tomorrow. There is no reason to conserve energy or not go full tilt.

That is why I put Gilbert above Cav. His accomplishments (2 x GdL, LBL, 2 x AGR, FW, PT, 2 x Omloop etc) are better than achieving loads of wins within stage races. For mine, Cav's greatest accomplishments are the WC and MSR ... which is the only reason you might argue his case for being higher up on the list. I am not dissing his sprint wins - they are great. But lets keep them in perspective.

Evans accomplishments (1 TdF, 2 x 2nd, good results in Giro and Vuelta, 1 x WC, 1 x FW, couple of 1 week stage races) .... way more impressive than 20 sprint wins.

Still not massively buying it to be honest, Cav still has to beat all the best sprinters. the best guys may not be trying to win, but would they beat him in a flat stage even if they were trying?

I guess i am basing it on the domination of certain aspects. I think Cav has dominated sprinting more than Gilbert has dominated the one dayers. and same goes for Evans, he has by no means dominated his field of expertise, so why should he rank ahead of Cav?

Arb · « **Reply #55 on:** April 17, 2012, 04:43 »

Quote from: DinZ on April 17, 2012, 04:03

I guess i am basing it on the domination of certain aspects.

Does that mean a "GC Rider" is just one discipline with aspects of being great in mountains/time trials/hills/hilly classics/stage races. i.e. as dominanting large bunch sprints as good as being one of the best in several areas (because we can just call them GC riders instead).

Dr. Horrible the Mad Elephant Man · « **Reply #56 on:** April 17, 2012, 05:08 »

Quote from: DinZ on April 17, 2012, 04:03

Still not massively buying it to be honest, Cav still has to beat all the best sprinters. the best guys may not be trying to win, but would they beat him in a flat stage even if they were trying?

I guess i am basing it on the domination of certain aspects. I think Cav has dominated sprinting more than Gilbert has dominated the one dayers. and same goes for Evans, he has by no means dominated his field of expertise, so why should he rank ahead of Cav?

The objective of a stage race is to be first, Cav is never first, he only wins bits of the race that are suited to him, he is miles behind on other parts.
Evans is not only a stage racer, he does well in one day racing as well. He also can time trial really well when needed.

DinZ · « **Reply #57 on:** April 17, 2012, 05:13 »

Quote from: CEM on April 17, 2012, 05:08

The objective of a stage race is to be first, Cav is never first, he only wins bits of the race that are suited to him, he is miles behind on other parts.
Evans is not only a stage racer, he does well in one day racing as well. He also can time trial really well when needed.

i would say that in the majority of stage races the number of riders trying to win the overall is considerably less than the number of riders trying to win each of the stages.

The Hitch · « **Reply #58 on:** April 17, 2012, 05:27 »

Quote from: DinZ on April 17, 2012, 01:41

Interesting

reading cyclingranking website the top 10 would be (slightly confused as to what is included in contadors ranking here)

1. Evans
2. Valverde
3. Freire
4. Cunego
5. Hincapie
6. Sanchez
7. McEwen
8. O'Grady
9. Garzelli
10. Di Luca

youve fallen for the notorious cycling ranking website

. The same website that has Contador behind Christophe Moreau in all time rankings and has Rojas 5th but Cav 33rd for 2011. They dont reveal their methods, they just post crap

Quote from: DinZ on April 17, 2012, 01:25

I agree with Boonen. I am close on Gilbert (but still think he needs a couple more great seasons). but Cadel? not even the best GC rider in his time. Has won one Tour? Sorry but think a sprinter that has utterly dominated in his time and that has won so many stages deserves to rank higher than Cadel.

Im basing it on pure palmares.

The worlds cancel eachother out (which is perhaps being generous cos Cadel did it in style).

The yellow jersey eats 20 Tour stages 8 Giro stages 3 Vuelta stages and asks for 2nds.

MSR is better than FW, but FW is worth something as is a podium there from before, top 5s in Liege,

Thats before we even consider Cadels 2 Romandie victories. His Tirreno victory. His Dauphine podiums and his Giro stage win and his Tour stage win. What does Cav have to match these? Shieldprijs a few times. stage wins in races like TA and Cali and Romandie and Suisse.
Doesnt really compare. Not by a long shot. Not yet anyway,

Cav does of course have 8 years to work on this palmares, as Cadel is coming to the end of his career while Cav is still in the first half of his.

But we are talking about existing palmares not potential, so to smash it out of the park lets bring out the heavy artilery.

5th in Giro, 3rd in Vuelta, 2nd in a TDF and a 2nd in the Tour.

A one time UCI world tour champion one time cq ranking champion.

the judges declare by unanimous decision the winner of this fight and still!

the better cyclist

DinZ · « **Reply #59 on:** April 17, 2012, 05:32 »

Quote from: The Hitch on April 17, 2012, 05:27

youve fallen for the notorious cycling ranking website . The same website that has Contador behind Christophe Moreau in all time rankings and has Rojas 5th but Cav 33rd for 2011. They dont reveal their methods, they just post crap

Im basing it on pure palmares.

The worlds cancel eachother out (which is perhaps being generous cos Cadel did it in style).

The yellow jersey eats 20 Tour stages 8 Giro stages 3 Vuelta stages and asks for 2nds.

MSR is better than FW, but FW is worth something as is a podium there from before, top 5s in Liege,

Thats before we even consider Cadels 2 Romandie victories. His Tirreno victory. His Dauphine podiums and his Giro stage win and his Tour stage win. What does Cav have to match these? Shieldprijs a few times. stage wins in races like TA and Cali and Romandie and Suisse.
Doesnt really compare. Not by a long shot. Not yet anyway,

Cav does of course have 8 years to work on this palmares, as Cadel is coming to the end of his career while Cav is still in the first half of his.

But we are talking about existing palmares not potential, so to smash it out of the park lets bring out the heavy artilery.

5th in Giro, 3rd in Vuelta, 2nd in a TDF and a 2nd in the Tour.

A one time UCI world tour champion one time cq ranking champion.

the judges declare by unanimous decision the winner of this fight and still!

the better cyclist

I like your argument, i am still not convinced

i think Cadels inability to win some races maybe he should have as weakness

and does a rider who had that weakness (which i think is gone now) deserve to be number 3?

I know it is a big if, but IF you ignore the tour win, Does he even come close?
One thing to be said for Cadel is I personally (and i am already regretting typing this as do not want to go down this route) believe he has done it clean.

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