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The Poster Formerly Known As Moondance

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Future of cycling in Spain
« on: January 24, 2012, 12:09 »
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/castilla-y-leon-to-lose-two-days

The Vuelta a Castilla y Leon gets two out of five days hacked off, and like the article stresses, it's happening to a race which I thought was one of the up-and-coming races in Spain. Shoot, they very nearly had TGBM as a winner last year. And while races are cutting back or being cancelled all across Europe, Spain is looking like the epicentre for the problem.

I guess it was to be expected.... Cycling is unusually reliant on government money (usually at a municipal or provincial level) to run races, and in Spain perhaps this is true to the greatest degree, since of the six active Spanish cycling teams (Movistar, Euskaltel, Andalucia, Caja Rural, Burgos 2016, and Orbea) only Movistar doesn’t get some of its money directly or indirectly from the taxpayer.

Given that Spain, and the decentralised governments in particular, are struggling terribly for money, one expects there to be more serious cutbacks in the coming years. So does cycling, despite the enormous wealth of Spanish cycling talent, have a bright future in the short- to- medium-term? Or will it just be the Vuelta, maybe one or two professional team, and the rest of Spanish cycling living in exile?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 00:09 by Admin »
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bicing

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 15:11 »
Not to mention the de-Basque-isation of Euskaltel...it's a really interesting point you raise.

What does a countrys cycling fegeration have to do to get funds?? Spain have had the top cyclists for years! They have Contador one of the future greats of all time! What the F

But don't you hthik this problem exists in other countrys too? It's a global problem with the direction of the sport, with all credit to the UCI.
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Dim

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 15:30 »
Shame about Castilla y Leon. Always a good race.

This is part of my big issue with the UCI's globalisating thing. Creating new races when so many other races need help. Tour of the Med for instance, a far better race than Qatar or Oman and positioned early in the year, but struggling every year financially when the likes of Oman and Qatar have no problems.

Countless other races under threat while the UCI and ASO are busy creating new ones.

The Poster Formerly Known As Moondance

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 15:55 »
Not to mention the de-Basque-isation of Euskaltel...it's a really interesting point you raise.

What does a countrys cycling fegeration have to do to get funds?? Spain have had the top cyclists for years! They have Contador one of the future greats of all time! What the F

But don't you hthik this problem exists in other countrys too? It's a global problem with the direction of the sport, with all credit to the UCI.


I know the Dutch cycling federation gets about half its money from the government in the form of subsidies, and then about 20% from private sector sponsoring (Rabobank chucks in about €600k p.a.) and then the last 30% from a variety of sources, primarily contributions from members, licence fees for professional riders, and licence fees for races. In total about €6m per year.

But the Dutch Federation doesn't contribute financially to getting races organised. Maybe they coordinate, try and get their own sponsors to contribute to a race, or lobby local government officials to contribute public funds directly to race organisation. They however, also don't try and wet their beaks with the revenue that races generate, which is a good thing.

The ASO has lots of money I'd guess, because they keep most of the TV renevues that the Tour generates, which is the sport's cash cow; and cities are willing to pay huge sums for a Tour depart and finish. The UCI probably takes a membership fee from all national cycling federations, race licencing, and a cut from the non-ASO WorldTour races'  revenues, but I doubt they have a pile of money which they could help struggling races with.

This problem affects all races in Europe for sure. We've seen about half the races in Germany disappear for instance, but Germany didn't have Spain's long history of both cycling culture. Moreover a race like the Deutschland Tour had been defunct for a while, got new life blown into it when the nation got excited about a new generation of German riders (Ullrich, Zabel, etc.) in 1999, and when German cycling started to decline the private money dried up. Private money is drying up in Spain too (and around Europe too) the problem is that the public money in Spain, which was allways a key part of Spanish cycling, is following suit as well. It could be devastating, and I fear for Spain.

The Poster Formerly Known As Moondance

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 16:00 »
Shame about Castilla y Leon. Always a good race.

This is part of my big issue with the UCI's globalisating thing. Creating new races when so many other races need help. Tour of the Med for instance, a far better race than Qatar or Oman and positioned early in the year, but struggling every year financially when the likes of Oman and Qatar have no problems.

Countless other races under threat while the UCI and ASO are busy creating new ones.

Well, I don't know what the UCI's pile of money looks like, but I doubt its large enough to go on a rescuing spree. They needs races like Qatar, Oman, Beijing, Quebec, to keep the UCI afloat. I mean, if Castilla y Leon were to disappear completely next year, that's lost revenue for the UCI as well, and they need to compensate that from somewhere else (like China or Canada).

Added to that I don't really know whether its the job of the UCI to make sure races like Castilla y Leon survive. And I certainly don't think that the UCI looking to create races in China comes at the expense of struggling European races.

GreasyMonkey

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2012, 06:35 »
Unfortunately the state of Spanish cycling will not improve until there is money to be spent on it, and that's a LONG way down the priority list.

Movistar only came to the rescue with a fist full of cash because of real pressure and some form of guarantee from the national government in Spain, so I was told.

All of the provincial governments are so heavily in-debted, and the new national government is threatening to put all of the regional's budgets under national scrutiny, to help rein in the financial problems.


benotti69

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 09:41 »
the problem is complex and probably contains a number of factors.

I think a big reason is TV and the power it has to bring action into the living room has made a lot of people into couch potatoes.

Children are more interested in Xblox, wee, and plebstations than anything else and to get them to see outside the front door can be a struggle.

Cycling constantly shoots itself in the foot with its lack of ability to organise itself.

The biggest culprit the UCI, but the national feds must be mini versions of the UCI and from where i sit it has the feeling of a bunch of guys backslapping each other as they flip it all up and blaming others.

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DinZ

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 09:55 »
the problem is complex and probably contains a number of factors.

I think a big reason is TV and the power it has to bring action into the living room has made a lot of people into couch potatoes.

Children are more interested in Xblox, wee, and plebstations than anything else and to get them to see outside the front door can be a struggle.

Cycling constantly shoots itself in the foot with its lack of ability to organise itself.

The biggest culprit the UCI, but the national feds must be mini versions of the UCI and from where i sit it has the feeling of a bunch of guys backslapping each other as they fornicate it all up and blaming others.

Part of the problem is that cycling also does not translate well with the kids that love games etc

too many of them need immediate gratification both when watching and playing sports.

put them in a football game, 5 aside, small pitch, they can score goals, they can play immediately and they feel they are part of it
with younger kids the long term value in cycling, training, working for someone else to win. does not appeal.
trying to convince my son to sit down and watch cycling, and he struggles to get interested. He cannot enjoy the battle of a race, the slow pace of a result. he wants to know immediately who is winning, and explaining about breaks, the chase, sprinters, climbers loses him.

i would love for my son to want to ride, as i remember the joy that came from the short period in my cycling history when i was finally good enough to go for a long ride with my dad and he was still healthy enough to come out with me.

not completely on topic with this thread but something i am really thinking about at the moment as looking to get an 8 year old more into sport and cycling in particular, and away from disney tv, nintendo and iphones

benotti69

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 11:17 »
Cycling IMO is a sport to grow up with and into as a young teen after messing about on bmxs, mtbs, etc....

Ryaguas

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 14:00 »
Cycling IMO is a sport to grow up with and into as a young teen after messing about on bmxs, mtbs, etc....

With cycling you have to be very patient cuz you wont see the results in the short time... is not like football that You see the results when you score a goal or gave a pass for goal... But that patience has a reward...
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Dim

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 14:06 »
Part of the problem is that cycling also does not translate well with the kids that love games etc

too many of them need immediate gratification both when watching and playing sports.

put them in a football game, 5 aside, small pitch, they can score goals, they can play immediately and they feel they are part of it
with younger kids the long term value in cycling, training, working for someone else to win. does not appeal.
trying to convince my son to sit down and watch cycling, and he struggles to get interested. He cannot enjoy the battle of a race, the slow pace of a result. he wants to know immediately who is winning, and explaining about breaks, the chase, sprinters, climbers loses him.

This is where events like criteriums, cross etc can get the kids into it. You can go see them live.

I dont know about other countries but here in the Uk we have the Tour Series which is a set of city centre criteriums usually with loads of other events and activities for kids built around it. Being able to watch it live is a real impetus for the kids. Same with the tour of britain. The local councils work with the schools promoting it, getting the schools out on the roadside. Kids love waving at riders going past and if it gets a handful from each school wanting to ride its a start.

Maybe instead of handing out £1000 a week in benefits to families with 7 kids the government should give all kids over 5 a free bicycle. But then they would probably just sell them and buy drugs or playstations.

Ryaguas

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 18:17 »
I dont know about other countries but here in the Uk we have the Tour Series which is a set of city centre criteriums usually with loads of other events and activities for kids built around it. Being able to watch it live is a real impetus for the kids. Same with the tour of britain. The local councils work with the schools promoting it, getting the schools out on the roadside. Kids love waving at riders going past and if it gets a handful from each school wanting to ride its a start

Wooot? Seriously? is an amazing politic from the local councils! a great way to promote cycling to the kids!

DinZ

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 23:06 »
Cycling IMO is a sport to grow up with and into as a young teen after messing about on bmxs, mtbs, etc....

For me, growing up in country, cycling was about freedom. now living in cities cannot let my 8 year old out on the streets. So oging riding now means packing bikes in the car, driving to the local park and doing loops there.

Dim is right, crits can help. in fact thinking about it does not even need to be top riders (although that helps) should just take him down to Heffron park for the crit style racing they have there and see if that gets him excited.

Jukebox

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2012, 01:47 »
Cycling IMO is a sport to grow up with and into as a young teen after messing about on bmxs, mtbs, etc....
Exactly how I got into it, BMX opened up a new world for me.  Freedom and all of that.

I think cross would be one of the best ways to get younger kids into cycling.  It's fun and exciting, anything offroad in general does better for the shorter attention spans of youngsters.

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2012, 04:22 »
if this economic crisis continues i could see spanish cycling going in the same way of portuguese cycling tho never getting as far as portuguese cycling went simply because spain has a bigger talent pool and tradition.

i hope it doesn't happen tho

Parrulo

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2012, 17:14 »
if this economic crisis continues i could see spanish cycling going in the same way of portuguese cycling tho never getting as far as portuguese cycling went simply because spain has a bigger talent pool and tradition.

i hope it doesn't happen tho

i posted this yesterday but for some reason it appears under hugh januss name lol
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 01:37 by Admin »

Francois the Postman

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 20:07 »
It doesn't look too sunny in Spain for cycling's immediate future, does it?

Yes, people entertain themselves in different ways these days, and they certainly have more options than they had a few decades ago. And when money becomes as scarce as it is, a ticket-less event that has great logistical requirements each time it is staged, and drains local resources without having an immediate measurable effect on the local economy but needs to be instantly justified, will struggle even more.

But I think we alienate ourselves from our natural audiences (in those regions) more than we need to, and realize, by going global this way.

There seems to be a big difference between what is happening in the traditional heartlands for our sport, and the upcoming areas.

Cycling in Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands... it all was a smoothly oiled machine that made inner sense, as it was all built around things that made sense locally, and mostly happened locally. From grass-roots to top-teams, local sponsors, local authorities, local grudge-matches, local volunteers, local boys (and the occasional gal).

The top teams have slowly been forced out of that, and the whole thing is now trying to work locally, with a major cog, of not the most important cog, being transplanted to a different machine, forced to oil a different beast, the UCI's globalisation scheme. And locally, it all just doesn't add up any more. Slowly it is devastating the existing local (grass-root) infrastructures.

So its no wonder that Pat can claim that at top level it is looking healthier than ever (through his polarised sun-glasses, and in some way it does). And, in places where there was hardly a sport to speak of a few years back, no wonder "it" is doing better there too, after all that has been thrown at it.

But for the countries where it was all thriving on its own (at a level far beyond anything that will ever be matched by the new areas), and that ultimately enabled the creation of a UCI, for those countries it is the UCI's current policies which are wrecking the health of the sport as a sport.

A more creative UCI would have found a way to grow the sport elsewhere, but keep the sport healthy in the places that are (still) its longs. This one, not so much. But then the UCI is no longer in it for the sport, it exists to look after the UCI's interests more than those of its riders, teams, organisers, etc.

In general, I think there is a genuine conflict between what is good for the sport, globally, and what is good for the sport in the places where it is already well established, or thrived.

I didn't like the break-away league idea that was floated a while back, but the more I think about it, the more I suspect it might actually be a route to keep the two "competing" interests happier and healthier. Even if the price is more separate.

If the sport wants to become more viable again in places like Spain (at top, and sub-top level), there has to be a bigger incentive for local money to support local talent, and, ultimately, to make a more convincing case why additional local public money should be going in that direction too. That can only be the case if "local" becomes a focus again. The UCI's policies are heading the exact opposite way.

High-profile global sponsors? They measure returns differently, are far more likely to hop between sports, and are far more cut and run full stop (and "cut" includes buying talent rather than invest in a costly training program). They have zero interest in sticking with a sport or team when the going gets tough, as globally, that makes no sense. Local sponsors often have the exact opposite incentives.

If a competing league caters more for the new areas, with "their" top teams riding in more of their (sub-top) races, in formats and approach that appeal more to the new audiences, and if the existing top teams from the traditional countries (from Europe perspective, arguably Latin America too) appear more in front of its natural audiences, maybe it is an incentive for big national sponsors to return to their races and riders. Local organisers would have more local magnets on tap, making staging a race more viable by definition. And ultimately, it will make it more likely for local authorities to get local bang for their local buck too, increasing the likelihood of much fought-over money to be allocated to a race anyway. Plus, local sponsors are far more likely to stick with their local teams, as long as they can expect to see a return on investment, by getting plenty of local exposure.

And then the best of both worlds can meet, and entertain us in a handful of GTs and one-day arenas.

Dim

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 20:29 »
Its certainly a growing problem, and whichever way i run it around in my head I keep coming back to the same old thing. The UCI.

Weve now got the organiser of Pais Vasco publicly saying that they have to pay 700,000 euro to the UCI for world tour status. That can only surely be a stones throw from them dropping out of the world tour and doing their own thing. The question is, is the infrastructure and organisation there in spain for races to survive econmically outside of the world tour.

I wonder how many countries are looking at the situation in Spain and saying "it wont happen to us". On the other side, one country that may already be moving ahead with preventative plans is Italy. It would be good to hear from some of our Italian members, but I am hearing more and more stories coming out of Italy that RCS are planning to make a big move.

I know that RCS have had a number of meetings with people from big media companies. They are also embracing social media in a big way, I have even had conversations myself with Michele Acquarone on twitter. They are working more and more on broadcasting their races over the internet, and there are a lot of rumblings that a move could be made as early as May or June.

What that move will be is all speculation, but could the RCS races survive outside of the World Tour? Milan San Remo, Tirreno, the Giro, Lombardia, do they all need the UCI support to be succesful? Almost certainly not. Could races like Piemonte, Strade Bianche benefit from a more aggressive stance taken by RCS in moving all of their races outside of the UCI umbrella, almost certainly. If RCS deserted the UCI they would be free to invite who they wanted to their races, sort out all their own deals, and arguably be better for it.

RCS also more and more must be feeling sidelined by the ASO and the UCI's new found "friendship".

All this of course, could be a little late for the Spanish races, but they may find themselves, some sympathetic allies should they decide to leave the WT. Spain and Italy working together? Unthinkable?

Another side issue, that maybe has no relevance but maybe does. A few weeks ago, Eurosport were sending out emails threatening people and asking them to decist from streams and highlights packages etc saying that streams were destroying cycling. And yet, for Kuurne Brussels Kuurne, one of the Flanders classics that last year saw a huge crackdown by the Belgian Anti Piracy federation, this year was broadcasted unrestricted on eurosport. If Flanders classics, and RCS are already both looking at modern media methods as an option, then how many others are. If RCS are holding meetings with people from Sky Television and others, then were is that leading. Not sure when Eurosports deals with certain races ends but Ive got a feeling something is afoot.

But like I say, is it too late for Spain :S

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2012, 20:37 »
Dariovasco article
http://www.diariovasco.com/v/20120226/deportes/ciclismo/llevo-cuatro-anos-mendigando-20120226.html

700,000 euro for the world tour licence for Vuelta Pais Vasco

Quote
- What is the budget of the race?
- One million fifty thousand euros and 425,000 euros the Tour of the Classic, which is proportionally much more expensive than the Tour which is six days of racing. The test costs are very high one day.
- And where does the money go?
- For starters you have to pay 700,000 euros to the ICU for the UCI World Tour license and being in the calendar. We must also give 15% of the premiums for drug testing, which are another 30,000 euros. The Spanish Federation will pay € 24,000 in fees and doping controls, plus 10% of the awards, which are another 10,000 euros.
- Is not that much money?
- If you want to be in the top of the cycling world is what it costs. Also have greater impact. You are in a very small group of races. Anyway there are more expenses.
- What?
- You have to give € 7,500 to each team's World Tour comes to the race, plus accommodation for the group, which are about 11,000 euros for training. Multiply by 18 teams out 198,000 euros. The cost of accommodation will be the 250,000 euros. We've lowered the budget by EUR 250,000. People go home if arrivals and departures are nearby.

Francois the Postman

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2012, 21:11 »
The UCI and ASO completely sidelined the RCS recently, when they were debating the future of our sport (in my eyes the pay-off for, or requirement by, ASO, to stop the ongoing do-or-die confrontation with the UCI from a few years back. I hope the RCS has something up its sleeve, as it will need to.

ASO, at the time, could tell the UCI to go and smoke one, as it has the TdF trump. Pat overplayed his hand quite a bit. The Giro, much as we like it, doesn't hold that sort of sway, I fear, all the more as it isn't against the UCI, but against the CUI and ASO.

The ASO and UCI are setting out a course that secures a rosy future for both, regardless of cost to others. Or should I say: at a calculated cost to others?

No Pais Vasco in the world tour? Oh, I am sure some oil state has another golf course somewhere it wants to pimp via Eurosport to possible golfers (as a finish point after a lot of sand). 700.000 Euro? Peanuts!

I kinda hope that you are right, that the RCA is looking this actively at viable alternatives. Yes, direct internet cycling streaming. It certainly seems to work for Eurosport, why not cut out the middle man?

But they'll need more, as it doesn't stand a chance on its own, if ASO backs the UCI, when the UCI (inevitable) informs teams that any team that rides an unauthorised Giro will not be triding the TdF, etc.

Only when it is joined by substantial established races that are already attractive to the cycling-mad regions, and which are spread across the race calendar, will a break-away become viable, or become a viable alternative for more than Italian-teams only.

I actually think that a Spanish-Italian alliance is quite likely, although the Vuelta is already bought up by the other side, denting the strength of that pact seriously.

It will need more.

It might become an attractive option to some Belgian organisers though, for instance, who are already marketing their Classics and Semi-Classics together, to buffer the more "locally loved but globally dumpable ones" as best as they can against this UCI programme.

When you ask how other countries are looking at current developments, herein lies your answer: they know exactly what is in store for them in a few years time, if they just roll over.

Once you have a few key Italian-Spanish-Belgian races, maybe it would become attractive enough for some French ones, some Dutch, German, Austrian organisers, and teams, and sponsors.

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2012, 21:31 »
UCI has raised the money organisers have to pay them with a lot of % the last few years. This is causing the demise of many spanish and italian races, countries where the economy is stuttering the most. Typical...

Dim

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2012, 21:50 »
One thing is for sure, RCS are winning the public relations war, and based on a few things in belgium, streaming of kbk, the reworked flanders which arguably is to make it more enjoyable for the spectator (the tradition of the muur etc aside). It would appear that Pais Vasco have made a pretty direct swipe at the UCI regarding the race fees, and now asking for public support to help make these races go ahead. One does wonder how much is going on behind closed doors, and if discussions arent under way between some of the race organisers, then why not.

Dim

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2012, 21:53 »
One thing is for sure, RCS are winning the public relations war, and based on a few things in belgium, streaming of kbk, the reworked flanders which arguably is to make it more enjoyable for the spectator (the tradition of the muur etc aside). It would appear that Pais Vasco have made a pretty direct swipe at the UCI regarding the race fees, and now asking for public support to help make these races go ahead. One does wonder how much is going on behind closed doors, and if discussions arent under way between some of the race organisers, then why not.

the aso's new found friendship with the uci bothers me intensly. Oman, Qatar, Beijing, the new Chinese race, and the ASO also have a share in the Vuelta, Tour of California, and have now entered into a "media partnership" with the Tour Down Under. Add Paris Nice, Fleche, Liege, Paris Tours into their armoury and they have a pretty serious arsenal. Plus likely a Russian race, the planned Ports Classic.

Then again, a combined force of the Giro, Milan San Remo, Flanders Classics, Tirreno, Lombardy, Castilla y Leon, Pais Vasco, Murcia, Catalunya, San Sebastian with maybe races like Tour Med etc, and they can put together a pretty solid alternative.

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2012, 17:08 »
 Not to worry, all will be saved. The UCI are thinking about it:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-considers-basque-country-intervention
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Fignon - In my day, doping methods were derisory and the riders´exploits were massive.
For the last 15 years or so  it has been the other way rond: there is a huge number of ways in which riders can dope, and any exploits are derisory.

Francois the Postman

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Re: Future of cycling in Spain
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2012, 16:19 »
Must be an attractive option for ASO. Another prolific independent fragile enough to wave cash at, in an attempt to add it to their ever expanding prolific race sheet. All the more if they can "own" the race without having to buy it whole.

Sounds like the Basques got some flack for refusing ASO's advances, but right now I am glad they did. Hope they can get through this with a big "I" for independent. Although they will need to get on much sounder footing than 80% public money. That sort of dosh won't be available in the public Spanish purse for a while yet, for racing. Not even in the Basque region.

Also saw that Contador added his supportive voice to the Basque race, via his spangly new site (all that 'sudden' free time is good for something - career reboot v2 with "/en"). Also, evidently, with Specialised likely to come out all of this with his name still on their roster. More so than Riis, I think.

http://albertocontador.org/en/blog/seria-una-perdida-irreparable/

 

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