World Tour > [WT] Tour of Flanders

benotti69 · « **Reply #300 on:** April 02, 2012, 08:57 »

Quote from: just some guy on April 02, 2012, 08:42

was impressed with Sagan - very strong - at times was not the best positioned but road very well

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sagan-shows-his-mettle-at-flanders

Watching it i thought Sagan was gonna be up there at the end but i think he needs a bit more wisdom on his shoulders. If he had stayed with Boonen, marking him he probably would've been there at the end if he had the strength on the Paterberg to stay in touch, but i think he spent energy unnecessarily at other times earlier in the race. Will be there on the podium in the future.

bicing · « **Reply #301 on:** April 02, 2012, 09:01 »

How about Paolini today, he was mental and super strong!

I'm looking again at the 18km mark when the decisive move was made. I'm really disappointed that we could not see the beginning of Pozzato's decisive move. We only see that, at about 32:15 on the video, that he is already away with Boonen in wheel. Behind it looks like Sky (Harmon said EBH) then Sagan in the line. It would be senseless to let those guys go, so whoever was first in the line didn't have it. But we saw later that Sagan possibly did have it, as he made a good effort to bridge, despite unsuccessful.

Anyway

I swear: if it's not fear of Canc, it is fear of OPQS.

I thought that moment where Verome Jincent was out in front would have been a nice opportunity for a little group to get away, but there was too much fear in the group due to OPQS. You could see that neither Jerome or the chase group were going particularly fast: Terpstra, who'd ben puuling all day was able to bridge without too much difficulty. In fact, All the non-podium winners in that little group before the final 2 climbs (about 20-25 km to go) should be disappointed with their ride and reconsider their tactics. They should have ridden harder and more aggressively. It was a solid selection, it oculd have been a winning selection. The riders: Sagan, Van Marcke, Iglinsky, Flecha, Paolini. Had Sagan, Vanmarcke or Flecha atacedk, Boonen would have responded himself in the exact way he did Pozzato. I don't think Boonen had the strenght or the bike to be able to follow more than 1 big attack. Sagan and Vanmarcke could have made these decisive attacks if they had not pointlessly tried to bridge the attacks of random riders - 3 OPQS riders 2 of which are favourites - should be enough to trust them to do the work. I don't know much about Paolini but he was a beast today, trying really hard and being aggressive. If he picked his battles and positioning better he probably would have had the strength to be with Ballan, Pozzato and Boonen.

Overally it was a great race but I feel that the peloton has a bit too much fear and insecurity this year.

L'arriviste · « **Reply #302 on:** April 02, 2012, 09:14 »

Quote from: Matt White

"He hit a spectator at around 60 or 70 kilometres per hour," team director Matt White told Cyclingnews.

"You can’t control 260 km of roads but some people on the course have no common sense. Sebastian was on the pavement but the spectator then ran back in front of him.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/langeveld-loss-leaves-greenedge-to-regroup

Matt White is a cretin. Langeveld, who crashed pointlessly on one of the widest roads of the day, was the one with no common sense here, gambling on riding off the road to improve his position. It was hardly the spectator's fault for staying on the pavement and not on the road.

just some guy · « **Reply #303 on:** April 02, 2012, 09:25 »

Quote from: L'arriviste on April 02, 2012, 09:14

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/langeveld-loss-leaves-greenedge-to-regroup

Matt White is a cretin. Langeveld, who crashed pointlessly on one of the widest roads of the day, was the one with no common sense here, gambling on riding off the road to improve his position. It was hardly the spectator's fault for staying on the pavement and not on the road.

Agreed with everything especially the cretin comment

Jamsque · « **Reply #304 on:** April 02, 2012, 09:40 »

I think both parties in the collision are idiots. Langeveld should know that if you hop the kerb you are putting yourself at risk, but the spectator leapt off the pavement and on to the bike path that Langeveld was riding down.

just some guy · « **Reply #305 on:** April 02, 2012, 09:48 »

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ballan-rides-to-third-after-difficult-week

ram · « **Reply #306 on:** April 02, 2012, 09:49 »

I agree with Matt White

Quote

"You can’t control 260 km of roads but some people on the course have no common sense. Sebastian was on the pavement but the spectator then ran back in front of him.

Langeveld lacks common sense. It's not easy to evade rash riders at such speeds.

I think the slaloming along the obstacles was one of the biggest failures of yesterday's race. Sure it may be part of the sport, but with so many spectators around, maybe it wasn't the wisest or safest for either the rider or the spectator. How on earth did the cars become a part of the race?

BYOP · « **Reply #307 on:** April 02, 2012, 10:11 »

Quote from: Jamsque on April 02, 2012, 09:40

I think both parties in the collision are idiots. Langeveld should know that if you hop the kerb you are putting yourself at risk, but the spectator leapt off the pavement and on to the bike path that Langeveld was riding down.

In defense to the fan, if you watch the crash again you'll see the reason the fan moves backwards, its because the peloton moves in towards them which causes the fan to move backward and get hit by Langeveld.

Also agree with the Matt White comments, can't stand the fishy guy.

AG · « **Reply #308 on:** April 02, 2012, 11:29 »

I think that both parties are to blame for stuff like that.

Langeveld knew the risks when he tried to go around ... but the spectator moved across the front of him too. Probably an enormous amount of panic.

The biggest safety issue of the day was the IDIOTIC car drives/directors who told them to move forward at that point ... how stupid was that.

just some guy · « **Reply #309 on:** April 02, 2012, 11:40 »

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11515/Flanders-Roundup-Sagan-pleased-with-experience-of-fifth-place.aspx

Tuart · « **Reply #310 on:** April 02, 2012, 14:42 »

Quote from: L'arriviste on April 02, 2012, 09:14

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/langeveld-loss-leaves-greenedge-to-regroup

Matt White is a cretin. Langeveld, who crashed pointlessly on one of the widest roads of the day, was the one with no common sense here, gambling on riding off the road to improve his position. It was hardly the spectator's fault for staying on the pavement and not on the road.

I love your choice of words here. How can someone crash "pointlessly"? Do people usually make a point of crashing? "Oh, today's the day! I may not win the race but gosh darn it, I'm going to make a point of crashing!"

I'm posting a (dodgy-looking) gif at the end of this post so you can see the crash yourself. I disagree with several things you said. The road, whilst being of good quality is only single lanes each way, hardly the widest road they were on or ample space to manoeuvre. A lot of the road was unride-able because of the plants in the way, likely that part of the road is for parking. He wasn't "gambling" either...well except on underestimating the stupidity of people. The path-way itself was clear, the few spectators were position in-between the plants (parking area), where no rider can ride, there was a clear straight ahead of him, it was not packed. The problem was, dark-jacket dude got scared by the peloton and stupidly fled backwards (so no, didn't stay in his position) in complete ignorance to Sebastian and the other riders moving up. If people are going to position themselves that close to the race (that area was asphalt so wouldn't term it the pavement) they are asking for trouble themselves and better accept they're going to come extremely close to a full speed peloton. Want to know what the spectator should have done? Look at the dude in white, who was closer to the peloton. He barely moved and importantly, didn't flee into oncoming riders.

Sebastian put himself into a position where a spectator could fell him, yes, but more importantly all the blame should be squared at the spectator for causing the crash. Unless your going to use that logic to say every rider who crashes is at fault because they were in that race to begin with.

The incident:

If there was footage of the person who took down FC, people would be leading a witch-hunt atm. :

BYOP · « **Reply #311 on:** April 02, 2012, 14:46 »

Tuart, please take off your GE goggles, please. It wasn't the spectators fault, watch what you've posted without the goggles.

Tuart · « **Reply #312 on:** April 02, 2012, 14:50 »

Quote from: Capt_Cavman on April 01, 2012, 19:55

He was turning a bigger gear, once Boonen started to sprint, it was over. Pozatto's only chance was to make it a long one and hope that Boonen didn't have the strength left. I know Pozzato love is the new black but I don't think he played his hand well at the end. It's like having an 'any sport you choose' competition against Federer and selecting tennis.

Have you read the article with Pozzato's comments on the race? (here)

Neither Ballan or Pozzato chose to have Boonen with them. Like Tom himself, they were both on their limit riding up the Paterberg so that gap that was created was all he (or Ballan) could do. That's not riding for sprint. Then it was the 3 of them, on the flat, into a headwind, with 13km to go. Pippo states he agreed to work with Ballan, marking Tom because they knew his strength, so again, hardly indicative that he's choosing to fight Boonen at his own speciality. As I pointed out in my post, by the time it got to the sprint, Pozzato wanted to give himself every chance he could so why use up energy sprinting earlier against a better sprinter? As it was, even if Pozzato was "fresher" there would be no way with the headwind that he could the speed to get past Boonen.

That headwind (like Boonen himself comments) won him the race at the top of the Paterberg when they regrouped together.

Tuart · « **Reply #313 on:** April 02, 2012, 14:53 »

Quote from: BYOP on April 02, 2012, 14:46

Tuart, please take off your GE goggles, please. It wasn't the spectators fault, watch what you've posted without the goggles.

You're telling me you see the guy who caused the crash unmoving and on pavement?

Are Optometrists covered under that dodgy health-care system you guys have? :

L'arriviste · « **Reply #314 on:** April 02, 2012, 15:03 »

Quote from: Tuart Pobblebonk on April 02, 2012, 14:42

I love your choice of words here. How can someone crash "pointlessly"? Do people usually make a point of crashing? "Oh, today's the day! I may not win the race but gosh darn it, I'm going to make a point of crashing!"

I'm posting a (dodgy-looking) gif at the end of this post so you can see the crash yourself. I disagree with several things you said. The road, whilst being of good quality is only single lanes each way, hardly the widest road they were on or ample space to manoeuvre. A lot of the road was unride-able because of the plants in the way, likely that part of the road is for parking. He wasn't "gambling" either...well except on underestimating the stupidity of people. The path-way itself was clear, the few spectators were position in-between the plants (parking area), where no rider can ride, there was a clear straight ahead of him, it was not packed. The problem was, dark-jacket dude got scared by the peloton and stupidly fled backwards (so no, didn't stay in his position) in complete ignorance to Sebastian and the other riders moving up. If people are going to position themselves that close to the race (that area was asphalt so wouldn't term it the pavement) they are asking for trouble themselves and better accept they're going to come extremely close to a full speed peloton. Want to know what the spectator should have done? Look at the dude in white, who was closer to the peloton. He barely moved and importantly, didn't flee into oncoming riders.

Sebastian put himself into a position where a spectator could fell him, yes, but more importantly all the blame should be squared at the spectator for causing the crash. Unless your going to use that logic to say every rider who crashes is at fault because they were in that race to begin with.

The incident:

If there was footage of the person who took down FC, people would be leading a witch-hunt atm. :

Thanks for posting the GIF and I'm sorry if I upset anyone with my slightly crass use of language. Matt White is of course not a cretin.

There is however no need to criticise or abuse users personally, whatever happened out there.

I think that the GIF confirms that one spectator pushed back inwards because (s)he was worried about being engulfed by the bunch and this caused the other to run out of space to stand, so he figured on getting fully out of the way. Who knows, he may not even have seen Langeveld until it was far too late - this was a descent after all - but at no time was he on the actual designated road.

Langeveld was definitely not on the designated road, he had taken a cycle lane, so I hardly think you can blame a spectator for a crash that did not happen on the road which is where the race is supposed to be. Cycle lanes are for situations when there is normal road traffic, which of course is not the sort of traffic in a WT event. Not saying that it is illegal to use cycle lanes in a race, but it is still clearly "off course" and I think that makes it the rider's choice to take the risk.

The crash was needless (if 'pointless' is not the correct word) because Langeveld was taking a big risk to grab a small advantage. I do not have any partisan feelings about GreenEdge - perhaps unlike Tuarts - I just think it is unfair to call out the organisers or spectators when it was Langeveld who was taking all the risk.

BYOP · « **Reply #315 on:** April 02, 2012, 15:05 »

Right I guess you're just being a putz because it's Greenedge. Use you super oz vision and watch the thing again. The pelotom moves from the right of the screen towards the left hand side, the spectator bricks it, Then one guy pulls out, it looks like a few more will follow but they don't, whilst this happens the guy in black jumps/runs back and that's when Langeveld gets it, so I guess it was poor positioning by Langeveld.

Also I guess I forgot that Australia has the best health service etc, but I guess that's cos no one is there as they all move to europe to work in bars!

L'arriviste · « **Reply #316 on:** April 02, 2012, 15:08 »

Quote from: BYOP on April 02, 2012, 15:05

Right I guess you're just being a putz because it's Greenedge. Use you super oz vision and watch the thing again. The pelotom moves from the right of the screen towards the left hand side, the spectator bricks it, Then one guy pulls out, it looks like a few more will follow but they don't, whilst this happens the guy in black jumps/runs back and that's when Langeveld gets it, so I guess it was poor positioning by Langeveld.

Also I guess I forgot that Australia has the best health service etc, but I guess that's cos no one is there as they all move to europe to work in bars!

Hey, take it easy, BYOP. I agree with you on the facts but there's no need to be rude.

Jamsque · « **Reply #317 on:** April 02, 2012, 15:21 »

Did Spartacus ever say what took him down? Was it a bag/bottle in the spokes?

L'arriviste · « **Reply #318 on:** April 02, 2012, 15:22 »

Quote from: Jamsque on April 02, 2012, 15:21

Did Spartacus ever say what took him down? Was it a bag/bottle in the spokes?

~~I think it was another rider, wasn't it? Maybe a moment's inattention.~~

He hit a bottle apparently - http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/successful-surgery-for-cancellaras-quadruple-collarbone-fracture

just some guy · « **Reply #319 on:** April 02, 2012, 15:24 »

Quote from: Jamsque on April 02, 2012, 15:21

Did Spartacus ever say what took him down? Was it a bag/bottle in the spokes?

reports from medial and I think RaNT water bottle

Tuart · « **Reply #320 on:** April 02, 2012, 15:30 »

Quote from: L'arriviste on April 02, 2012, 15:03

Thanks for posting the GIF and I'm sorry if I upset anyone with my slightly crass use of language. Matt White is of course not a cretin. There is however no need to criticise or abuse users personally, whatever happened out there.

I think that the GIF confirms that one spectator pushed back inwards because (s)he was worried about being engulfed by the bunch and this caused the other to run out of space to stand, so he figured on getting fully out of the way. Who knows, he may not even have seen Langeveld until it was far too late - this was a descent after all - but at no time was he on the actual designated road.

Langeveld was definitely not on the designated road, he had taken a cycle lane, so I hardly think you can blame a spectator for a crash that did not happen on the road which is where the race is supposed to be. Cycle lanes are for situations when there is normal road traffic, which of course is not the sort of traffic in a WT event. Not saying that it is illegal to use cycle lanes in a race, but it is still clearly "off course" and I think that makes it the rider's choice to take the risk.

The crash was needless (if 'pointless' is not the correct word) because Langeveld was taking a big risk to grab a small advantage. I do not have any partisan feelings about GreenEdge - perhaps unlike Tuarts - I just think it is unfair to call out the organisers or spectators when it was Langeveld who was taking all the risk.

The race is RVV, from what I understand (I've watched it live for only 2 years so forgive me if I'm wrong) but one of the typical facets of the race is that the riders are fully expected to use every corner, pathway, mud path that can be of an advantage to them to gain position. I would think this is the same on the road as it is on cobbles. I don't see the guy as being pushed, he made the (incorrect) choice to move but like the spectator in the first few seconds of the gif (and white shirt guy), if the fans just stayed where they were, or at an appropriate distance and not so close, none of this would have happened.

Look, accidents happen, I highly doubt anything should come of it, nor should it. I just think its unfair to proportion all the blame at Langeveld.

As for bias, I'm probably more anti-fan bias in these sorts of situations, if I step back from it all.

Quote from: BYOP on April 02, 2012, 15:05

Right I guess you're just being a putz because it's Greenedge. Use you super oz vision and watch the thing again. The pelotom moves from the right of the screen towards the left hand side, the spectator bricks it, Then one guy pulls out, it looks like a few more will follow but they don't, whilst this happens the guy in black jumps/runs back and that's when Langeveld gets it, so I guess it was poor positioning by Langeveld.

Also I guess I forgot that Australia has the best health service etc, but I guess that's cos no one is there as they all move to europe to work in bars!

You said I'm wearing goggles, I (more or less) said you need your eyes checked. If that's hit a real nerve, we can have a proper debate about health systems elsewhere if you like.

just some guy · « **Reply #321 on:** April 02, 2012, 15:38 »

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pozzato-was-the-strongest-says-scinto

BYOP · « **Reply #322 on:** April 02, 2012, 16:28 »

Quote from: Tuart Pobblebonk on April 02, 2012, 15:30

The race is RVV, from what I understand (I've watched it live for only 2 years so forgive me if I'm wrong) but one of the typical facets of the race is that the riders are fully expected to use every corner, pathway, mud path that can be of an advantage to them to gain position. I would think this is the same on the road as it is on cobbles. I don't see the guy as being pushed, he made the (incorrect) choice to move but like the spectator in the first few seconds of the gif (and white shirt guy), if the fans just stayed where they were, or at an appropriate distance and not so close, none of this would have happened.

Look, accidents happen, I highly doubt anything should come of it, nor should it. I just think its unfair to proportion all the blame at Langeveld.

As for bias, I'm probably more anti-fan bias in these sorts of situations, if I step back from it all.

You said I'm wearing goggles, I (more or less) said you need your eyes checked. If that's hit a real nerve, we can have a proper debate about health systems elsewhere if you like.

No nerve hit here, better luck in the future. As for the debate about the health systems, sure, we might even agree on somethings! ;D

just some guy · « **Reply #323 on:** April 02, 2012, 19:43 »

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ochowicz-pleased-with-bmcs-tour-of-flanders-performance-1

The Hitch · « **Reply #324 on:** April 02, 2012, 19:49 »

Personally I think neither is at fault.

Langeveld got really unlucky. The road was very congested he saw a space and took it.

Unfortunately at the very moment that he was about to ride past that spectator the peloton moved a bit to the right causing the spectator to move back, unaware that Langeveld was on that path.
bat luck, but nothing you can do about it.

The spectator can't be faulted imo. Spectators have a right to be there. I know many on these forums want cycling to be ridden on empty roads but for me seeing the fans out there to support the riders is half the fun. It also is what makes races like Flanders so so special. The spectator was off the road away from the riders where he should be. His moving away was came about because he did not want to cause a crash.

Real shame for Langeveld my full sympathies with him, very unlucky.

killswitch · « **Reply #325 on:** April 02, 2012, 21:51 »

Gerard Vroomen's thoughts on the race:

http://gerard.cc/2012/04/02/7-thoughts-on-flanders/

Francois the Postman · « **Reply #326 on:** April 02, 2012, 23:38 »

Quote from: The Hitch on April 02, 2012, 19:49

Personally I think neither is at fault.

Langeveld got really unlucky. The road was very congested he saw a space and took it.

Unfortunately at the very moment that he was about to ride past that spectator the peloton moved a bit to the right causing the spectator to move back, unaware that Langeveld was on that path.
bat luck, but nothing you can do about it.

Aye I thought the same. From where Langeveld sat, when he did it, the path looked clear and he took it. Had he moved up a few places we would have called that clever riding.

The 2 spectators had picked a spot between the widely spaced trees, close to a tree. A decent and normally safe viewing spot. If you watch the race, and see what is coming their way, at what speed, anyone standing there would duck for cover. If they had remained still they would have been hit by the peloton's swervers, and we would be talking about how freaky an accident that was. One of the two managed to jump all the way out. Unfortunately for Langeveld, that took this spectator right into his path.

A series of unfortunate events with no-one to blame. It happens.

l29205 · « **Reply #327 on:** April 02, 2012, 23:39 »

Quote from: The Hitch on April 02, 2012, 19:49

Personally I think neither is at fault.

Langeveld got really unlucky. The road was very congested he saw a space and took it.

Unfortunately at the very moment that he was about to ride past that spectator the peloton moved a bit to the right causing the spectator to move back, unaware that Langeveld was on that path.
bat luck, but nothing you can do about it.

The spectator can't be faulted imo. Spectators have a right to be there. I know many on these forums want cycling to be ridden on empty roads but for me seeing the fans out there to support the riders is half the fun. It also is what makes races like Flanders so so special. The spectator was off the road away from the riders where he should be. His moving away was came about because he did not want to cause a crash.

Real shame for Langeveld my full sympathies with him, very unlucky.

Very nicely written up summary of the accident. just bad luck for all involved. Was a in a very similar accident in my youth when racing. Sometimes a clear path is not the safe path.

Dim · « **Reply #328 on:** April 02, 2012, 23:59 »

Pretty much the same as my thoughts yesterday while twitter was exploding saying what an idiot the member of the public was.

That said, if you are going to go off road and onto pavement

1) slow down
2) have your fingers on the brakes in case you need to use them

That goes for everyone, not just pros in races, if you put yourself in a position that is not what is expected then you have to take care. For that reason, a little bit of blame does lie in Langevelds direction.

But ultimately an unfortunate accident.

just some guy · « **Reply #329 on:** April 03, 2012, 10:39 »

Velonews

How the race was won - http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/04/video/how-the-race-was-won-tour-of-flanders-2012_211948

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[WT] Re: Tour of Flanders - April 1st 2012

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