The Dark Side

Dim · « **on:** June 17, 2012, 23:18 »

Trying to get some sort of clarity to the tangled web.

Work in progress - Final Version to be uploaded shortly

This is a project I have been thinking about and planning for a while and now seems a particularly relevant time to put it in the public domain. A lot of questions are being asked, about how, if Lance was doping, USAC never did anything, or noticed, and its important that people realise just how intertwined everything was. Its also relevant when you see situations like Bazaarvoice doing the PR for Lance to understand how that relationship works. And thats without even going into how Lance's companies benefit from the Livestrong/LAF Brand.

Theres a lot of information out there, but only the most serious people will want to read through pages of articles, and even then people wont fully understand them. As far as I know, this as never been attempted before, and probably never will again.

This is only the start of the project, theres a lot more information out there. The consortium that wanted to buy the Tour de France, links with the McQuaids and races across America, links to Hein Verbruggen. But those are for the future.

Thanks to all those who contributed.

http://cyclismas.com/2012/06/lance-armstrongs-business-links-a-flowchart-by-dimspace/

Dim · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2012, 15:07 »

All the business relationships are relevant to the period between 1990-2012 - some may not be existing, or the companies may no longer exist. There will be a large note to that effect when its eventually published.

Thanks for those extra. this is still being built on. Got elves working on the vebruggen, amgen, lance links.. I am working on the right hand side.

everything leads back though, first glance at that list, Honey Bee lot.. Lance owns a share, and guess what, they sponsor livestrong as do FRS. And guess what, as corporate sponsors FRS and Honey Bee get to sell there products at Livestrong events.. Its all a big money making scam.

Holy cow, even the hospital that Weisel was born in is a livestrong sponsor.

Drummer Boy · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2012, 19:10 »

Quote from: Dim on June 18, 2012, 15:07

All the business relationships are relevant to the period between 1990-2012...

It is dizzying. This is why I was hoping for the Fed case to fully blossom. A lot of names on that list would've been running for cover, and the depth of the deceit and corruption may have finally seen the light. But there's no telling just where the USADA case will end, so hopefully a few sleepless nights away that gallery of greats.
Messick to make the list, I assume?

Dim · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2012, 19:33 »

Quote from: Drummer Boy on June 18, 2012, 19:10

Messick to make the list, I assume?

Probably, not, outside of Ironman is there any prior history with lance, or any of the various companies.

Trying to keep it purely to the direct circle which is how Weisel controlled US Cycling, and the links between the various companies that feed off livestrong.

Slow Rider · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2012, 19:49 »

This is giving me a headache just looking at it. Great job making it all clear for everyone though!

Drummer Boy · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2012, 19:51 »

Quote from: Dim on June 18, 2012, 19:33

Probably, not, outside of Ironman is there any prior history with lance, or any of the various companies.

President of AEG. :-X

Dim · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2012, 20:36 »

Is he... oh for christ sake, squeezed him in. He better not have invested in ruddy tailwind, montgomery on been on the USAC board at any point.

Drummer Boy · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2012, 20:44 »

Was...until taking on the WTC position.

just some guy · « **Reply #8 on:** June 18, 2012, 20:51 »

the whole Och thing is interesting

clearly a close enough person, but hired 2 riders who left us postal as enemy's and who start the ball rolling in all of this, did Och have a falling out or was he protecting the investment

Dim · « **Reply #9 on:** June 18, 2012, 21:11 »

Quote from: Drummer Boy on June 18, 2012, 20:44

Was...until taking on the WTC position.

He was on the USAC Board?

Dim · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2012, 21:12 »

Quote from: just some guy on June 18, 2012, 20:51

the whole Och thing is interesting

clearly a close enough person, but hired 2 riders who left us postal as enemy's and who start the ball rolling in all of this, did Och have a falling out or was he protecting the investment

Lance fell out with Och way back at Motorola, thats why he left and went back to the new team that was being formed (USPS)

Not sure what happened with Weisel and Och, they were still working together well into the Postal team being formed

Dim · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2012, 15:17 »

Nearly there, 2 full days work, probably about 16 hours spent on this so far. 85% complete

You can download the PDF From here> http://velorooms.com/files/ArmstrongBusinessConnections.pdf

just some guy · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2012, 15:45 »

On my phone will look tonight but is it true Hein and LA have construction companies together?

Dim · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2012, 16:39 »

Quote from: just some guy on June 19, 2012, 15:45

On my phone will look tonight but is it true Hein and LA have construction companies together?

yes, but this is the final peice of the jigsaw im waiting on from various sources.

I now know the names of pretty much everyone involved in this whole thing from the start (probably in excess of 40 names), Once I get the information on the building companies hopefully I will be able to tie in any other names involved.

I also really want to know what goes on at the mysterious bakers bay lots 48 and 49

Jamsque · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2012, 16:47 »

Quote from: Dim on June 19, 2012, 16:39

I also really want to know what goes on at the mysterious bakers bay lots 48 and 49

Got a more specific address than that? You'd be surprised what you can spot sometimes on Google StreetView

Dim · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2012, 17:31 »

Quote from: Jamsque on June 19, 2012, 16:47

Got a more specific address than that? You'd be surprised what you can spot sometimes on Google StreetView

its ok ive got it. adjacent lots on an island in the bahamas, famous for its seclusion (only famous people live there, lots are $4.5m each) as well as its altitude climbs. Also the centre of a lot of controversy over deforestation, chemical runoff amongst other things.

its where lance goes to "train"

Dim · « **Reply #16 on:** June 19, 2012, 18:47 »

Its finished, the final version will be on one of the well known snark websites at some point.

just some guy · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2012, 19:04 »

Quote from: Dim on June 19, 2012, 18:47

Its finished, the final version will be on one of the well known snark websites at some point.

you should have done a piece for a newspaper wsj etc - that is real investigative journalism

tis a tangled web O0

Dim · « **Reply #18 on:** June 19, 2012, 19:05 »

The Verbruggen building companies will be on V2, along with the mcquaids

Havetts · « **Reply #19 on:** June 19, 2012, 19:15 »

Awesome Dim.. Cant wait till you publish it

mew · « **Reply #20 on:** June 19, 2012, 19:38 »

dim I got a headache looking at this ;D :-\
fascinating...an amazing amount of work!

Quote

Holy cow, even the hospital that Weisel was born in is a livestrong sponsor.

nyvelocity would love this...
and will you let us know before / when you are going to publish?

Drummer Boy · « **Reply #21 on:** June 19, 2012, 21:24 »

Quote from: Dim on June 18, 2012, 21:11

He was on the USAC Board?

Sorry for any confusion on this. My post referred only to Messick being the former Pres of AEG.
You then replied with the question, "Is he?" But you must've expanded your post after I replied. I was simply putting it in the past tense by saying he "was." I never meant to imply any USAC connection.

Dim · « **Reply #22 on:** June 19, 2012, 22:29 »

he its fine, i dug through and figured him out.. hes not rich enough to be on the USAC board

Dim · « **Reply #23 on:** June 19, 2012, 23:10 »

Finished and online

http://cyclismas.com/2012/06/lance-armstrongs-business-links-a-flowchart-by-dimspace/

Drummer Boy · « **Reply #24 on:** June 19, 2012, 23:16 »

That is a serious bit of work.

Congrats

Nycomed. That's a new one to me.

I knew there was a connection to Bazaar voice, but I wan't aware of the reach of that particular web. :

Dim · « **Reply #25 on:** June 19, 2012, 23:41 »

Yeh, Nycomed made the Activogen that they got busted with. What wasnt covered at the time was how the owning company of tailwind had invested in activogen through another holding company

And yes, Bazaar are linked to just about everything

just some guy · « **Reply #26 on:** June 20, 2012, 19:06 »

right 1st some music

this has been bugging me a little since Dim started on the massive project.

Is Lance the master puppet or puppet master - ie does he pull the strings or someone else and he makes it happen.

I am going on memory here and can´t be assed researching it to be honest.

USA cycling was a basket case as 7-eleven was born - run by Och

7-eleven becomes Motorola and Lance Armstrong the young sprinter and classic rider becomes part of the squad

wins the WC and as Dim said which I did not know had a falling out with Och

The new WC joins Cofidis with what we now know a large Doping background, but the big thing here is they are French and all of the major players in US cycling will have no influence over him - why would they there is no money to be man.

Then Lance is found to have Cancer and we know from Betsy and Frankie was right into the PEDs game already.

And Lance returns to the fold and US Postal is born.

but the Cofidis thing to me indicates that Lance is a master puppet ie the most important puppet for the show but not the puppet master - ie there is someone or group pulling the strings.

now clearly overtime Armstrong has become more powerful and made a lot of Money and enemies but I still get the feeling that he is still the puppet.

weird as that may sound. or maybe it is just me being slow

I guess Weisel is the puppet master and if Armstrong never got Cancer we maybe discussing another rider from the USA - George I would guess.

Dim · « **Reply #27 on:** June 20, 2012, 19:28 »

The original puppet master was Wiesel. He was the one who set the ball rolling, Subaru Montgomery, then, came Motorola which is where Ochs then came into it, and they got Lance who was the original plan to go forward and win the tour.

Trouble is, Lance was a problem. He had a reputation as being difficult to get along with, brash, arrogant, and problematic. He wasnt an easy guy to sell to the American public, cocky, arrogant, basically an arsehole. That in turn led to problems with Ochs, Lance went off to Cofidis, and Wiesel and Ochs had to have a rethink.

Then Lance got cancer, and suddenly the whole thing changed. He was still a brash cocky arsehole, but now they could sell him to the public as a Cancer Survivor, and suddenly the plan was on againl the LAF was created which again, was a ploy to make him popular in the eyes of the public, and Armstrongs reputation was transformed from the cocky arsehole, to the survivor and charity champion. Weisel meanwhile was already working on his plan to control US Cycling, had got involved in Pharmacutical companies and it was game on. Its not really clear when Ochs got sidelined, but you can be pretty sure that it was Lance that was responsible for that, he didnt want to work with him. And so USPS was born.

Somewhere along the line Armstrong became less the puppet and more the master, Armstrong dealt with the sponsors, and his brand "livestrong" where Weisel was more the power broker, bringing in the investment, controlling the USAC side of things that Lance kept out of. As it stands now, the masters at the top of it all are very much Lance and Bill Stapleton.

Trouble is, there have been a few casualties along the way, Ochs, Tiger Williams who must have an awful lot to say about the whole thing. Various investors that deny having any hand in the every day ruynning of things.

The key three players for me now

Lance
Bill Stapleton who has a finger in just about everything
Jeff Garvey who again has a finger in absolutely everything and pretty much flies under the radar. Hes at LAF, as influence at USAC, involved in Bazaarvoice, Mellow Johnnys etc..

Dim · « **Reply #28 on:** June 20, 2012, 19:29 »

And yes, if Lance had not got Cancer it would be someone else. Its only his Cancer that they used to change public perception of him.

Whats interesting, is just how little involvement Bruyneel has. Shareholder in Tailwind but beyond that hes pretty much shut out of most things and is just an "employee"

If anyone has reason to be peeed, it should be Johann.

Dim · « **Reply #29 on:** June 20, 2012, 19:39 »

One interesting side note of all of this is the future of US Cycling. If Lance does go down, or lose his titles, where does that leave the financing. Half the board of US Cycling are somehow caught up in all of this, are they going to want to stick around, are they going to want to carry on donating.

The champions club will be no more. That could spell huge problems for USAC.

Main	Features	Forum Sections	Forum Sections	Forum Sections
Home	Calendar	General Discussion	Races	The Darkside
Forum	Links	About the Forum	Mens Road Cycling	Games
Todays Posts	Livestreams	The Music Section	Womens Road Cycling	Bikes & Gear
My Bookmarks	Race Highlights	Other Sports	Cyclocross	Training Etc
My Control Panel	Arcade	Members Lounge	Track Cycling
Newsfeeds		The Darkside	Mountain Biking

Dark Side Chatbox

Featured Topics

Recent Posts

Recent Topics