The Dark Side

Dim · « **on:** August 12, 2012, 00:30 »

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html

good job jv

Martin318is · « **Reply #1 on:** August 12, 2012, 01:04 »

Great read and good to see he has made it clear. Will have interesting fallout im sure

jobiwan · « **Reply #2 on:** August 12, 2012, 01:36 »

Really good read. Takes some guts, but as noted, the fallout will be very interesting. Hope his team isn't punished, even if he is somewhat.

Martin318is · « **Reply #3 on:** August 12, 2012, 01:51 »

Well, the bjarne precedent has pretty much been set. And he doesnt have a yellow jersey at risk. But being such a public face in social media, his twitter feed will be worthy of a watch

AG · « **Reply #4 on:** August 12, 2012, 02:06 »

Kudos to him. That takes courage.

I am so pleased he has come out with that though. Its important for the sport.

I have been reading his twitter stuff lately, and it was pretty clear what he was saying about why he retired - so I did think he was going to come out with something more concrete soon.

Havetts · « **Reply #5 on:** August 12, 2012, 02:15 »

Glad JV came out.. We all somewhat knew it, but it takes a massive amount of courage to come out and say you actually cheated.

So JV, I tip my hat. Respect to you.

Francois the Postman · « **Reply #6 on:** August 12, 2012, 03:00 »

He's been flagging up time and time again that he had crossed that line, to pretty much anyone who asked and could take a hint that he had. He also made it clear that he was going to come clean to the world at a time when he felt it would, or could, help.

It seems he has judged that time to be now. And did that by giving us personal motive, generalisations, the suggestion we are heading in the right direction and are a long way there. Not much more.

I guess there will be plenty of people crying out for specifics now.

I still feel that the best chance for a clean start is some sort of Truth and Reconciliation process. Come clean and stay clean, or pee off. And the UCI out of testing full stop.

I also suspect that the confidence in some corners has sunk so low, that vagaries alone might be an ok part of the process, but will not restore the faith in the sport.

A sport that is about to get another big knock, for the wider public, if the revisionary clouds hovering around US Postal finally burst, assuming they will, at some point.

People who crossed the line, can be the folk most likely to stay well clear of it. Once a thief, always a thief, is not something I subscribe to. It depends if you're Ricco, or not. I'd like to give Vaughters the benefit of the doubt, and assume he is the recovering alcoholic able to take charge of a bar.

He does sound genuine to me, and his cautionary route to coming clean is probably a wise one.

I can understand anyone who doesn't accept him, and finds it infuriating that he still gets to play by his rules.

He's doing just that, which - I fully accept - is probably wise, and all the more with responsibilities to people beyond himself, who rely on him for their livelihood.

But because he picks the time and tone of his own confession, I kinda find it hard to fully applaud it.

I do respect it to some extent. But I also respect Vino for his unashamed refusal to say sorry. In a screwed up way, I kinda appreciate that more.

Vaughter's confession? I prefer to see it as a strategic move, long held back, timed with some goal in mind. I hope the softly softly change from within route delivers the goods.

But without full openness at some point down the line, and the follow-up consequences, anyone not trusting any result, any yellow jersey rider, any comment coming from the same people in the same looking UCI boat.... they are probably the smart ones amongst us. The distrust is so self-inflicted, and behind so much cynicism, it stopped being funny long ago.

The "why" is so obvious, I and many others could have written JV's post, explaining the dilemma to the interested but relative uninvormed (or blind ones). It is good it is said. It also says very little, and on its own, is unlikely to trigger much, especially buried during the Olympics.

It does give me some hope, as JV seemingly judges the time and climate right for this move. That has to be good news to anyone to get away from the last decade(s) as far as they can. But my hope got its fingers burned so often, I will reserve judgement until I see what came out of it, in time.

Good read...

ram · « **Reply #7 on:** August 12, 2012, 03:25 »

So he says what the world knows. Fair play to him for admitting, but what a cauldron of kumbaya that piece was.

Martin318is · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2012, 03:49 »

Quote from: Francois the Postman on August 12, 2012, 03:00

But because he picks the time and tone of his own confession, I kinda find it hard to fully applaud it.

Bit confused by that line.
Surely the only real alternative to that is to only admit something when there is a direct accusation in play? I would have thought that a straight statement of guilt (which under the fluff, this opinion piece certainly is) when there was nobody actually asking the question is more worthy than an admission when authority is making an accusation?

Using the Vino example, regardless of his reaction, would anyone believe that he would have put his hand up and admitted doping if he wasn't already caught?

Speaking for myself, there is no way that I would have launched this topic when I had a rider in contention in a major race, a rider involved in a possible accusation of doping, or sponsor negotiations in process without signatures. Logically for JV that has quite rightly left him with about a 10minute window where he could raise this. :

Francois the Postman · « **Reply #9 on:** August 12, 2012, 05:17 »

No, there are countless other ways. He has been pushed time and time again to make a public confession. He does it now, at a time that it suits, and without any specifics, or expectations that it will risk much. He's saying it to a wider audience, but has pretty much said all this before. He stated why, that bit is kinda new, But which any of us could have written for him, and plenty of others. Nothing "gosh" in there, is there?

If anything, it makes him look good. Or maybe better: sympathetic. Part of the good guys. He is and isn't.

You can come clean in such a way that it will cost you dearly, which this certainly is not. Some people opt for that route, Vaughters doesn't. He is having it both ways. I am not saying that is wrong. But he is.

Cycling will continue, even Garmin, arguably, without JV, for instance. He's picking a path that keeps enabling him. For a greater good, maybe. But also for Vaughters. There is no law anywhere that says that Vaughters should be a DS 'to make up for it'. I have certainly admitted sins in a way that it triggered consequences I could not manipulate, or handle. That is not what Vaughters is doing here. Vaughters is still 'strategically' admitting (rightly or wrongly), so it suits his goals best, on his terms.

The timing is certainly interesting. It could be an attempt to nudge the whole ship at a time that feels fruitful. But it is also coming at a time when clouds are gathering thick and fast over US cycling. Which will trigger questions for JV too. I'm not sure it is meant that way, but if it was pre-empting some of what seems to be on the immediate US horizon, it certainly will help Garmin and JV to deal with that period better, by playing some risky cards now on your own terms. I think JV is bright, that can't have escaped him. It's standard PR practice if you have a muddy past that is likely to be quizzed again, soon.

With Vino it isn't about that he cheated, but my angle was that he never said "sorry". He isn't. He's not angling for understanding or wants to make up for it. He used for the very same reasons that Vaughters used dope, to win. To get the advantage against dopers, and over more capable riders. And to stay competitive. His motivation for using was the same. He did what he was willing to do extra.

He got caught. Some do, some don't. And what we can safely say: given the amount of transgressions that people appear to talk about (which is MUCH higher than the amount of riders who have cheated): ludicrously few acts are identified.

With the sport and governing body/bodies so corrupt, why opt for the "sorry" charade for being a rare exception to the rule - found to be positive? When even the people testing you have questions to answer. Saying sorry is just as much part of the circus, for some.

You can just as equally feel sorry about cheating, under those circumstances, as not. If it was so engrained within the sport. Both were victims and perpetrators, both cheats and riders with limited options in the real world (or simply caught on a slide that made the illegal look normal or unavoidable, rightly or wrongly). Both continued on distinctly different trajectories after the facts. I find things to admire, and loath, and many more things inbewteen, in both stances.

AG · « **Reply #10 on:** August 12, 2012, 06:27 »

Pretty brave of him to admit at all though Francois. He certainly didnt have to.

No one was going to force him to by any means, only his own conscience. Nobody forced him to start a new team, with a purpose of being a place for riders to be able to ride 'clean', to attempt at least to stand up for anti-doping.

Even with the sh*t-storm that is approaching, his prior semi-admissions would have taken the sting out of any of the flying dung that might go his way.

By this kind of piece, he is standing up and saying 'look at me, I did it' and attracting the flak that will come with that - and I do think there will be a cost associated with that. For his team, sponsors and self.

yes - maybe an element of PR management in the timing, but that is to be expected I think

flicker2.0 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 12, 2012, 07:01 »

JV admits, question the timing. Garmin is riding Utah at present, soon to be riding Colorado, look at the timing, USADA, and JVs personel.
Frankie and JVs inter texting, Frankie a team coach, announcer at the UTAH Americas toughest stage race etc.
Hell, I have heard more revealing admonitions over a couple of good bottles, from some major players,DS types. anti-dopers, drinking, laughing it up with the anti dopers, reveling in the"good days"
Rich, jv rich.

Ao Bjarne ris like.

So much like Contadors return.

L'arriviste · « **Reply #12 on:** August 12, 2012, 07:06 »

Quote from: Francois the Postman on August 12, 2012, 05:17

Saying sorry is just as much part of the circus, for some.

Amen to that and not just in cycling.

The Sunday NYT, which needs a whole forest to be cut down just to print an edition, has a very broad, rich, educated demographic. The people who read the Sunday NYT are people like JV, the people he will expect to understand his position. He will have cleared this with Garmin first and perhaps some of his riders and staff. That would be sensible. Annd it heads off the awkward questions if things do go Postal. Preparation.

I'm glad he wrote this but it is not enough for me personally. The broad strokes are fine for moralising Sunday NYT readers whose favourite sport is hauling the massive Sunday NYT from the store to a café. I would like to know what he was doing and how it was done. Perhaps there will be more when it's no longer legally sensitive, or is there to be a long-awaited JV autobiography in Christmas stockings this year? ;D

L'arriviste · « **Reply #13 on:** August 12, 2012, 07:27 »

Quote from: flicker2.0 on August 12, 2012, 07:01

JV admits, question the timing. Garmin is riding Utah at present, soon to be riding Colorado, look at the timing, USADA, and JVs personel.
Frankie and JVs inter texting, Frankie a team coach, announcer at the UTAH Americas toughest stage race etc.
Hell, I have heard more revealing admonitions over a couple of good bottles, from some major players,DS types. anti-dopers, drinking, laughing it up with the anti dopers, reveling in the"good days"
Rich, jv rich.

Ao Bjarne ris like.

So much like Contadors return.

Contador has admitted nothing but as for the rest you mention, they demonstrate at least that there's life after doping, even after you admit what you did.

Meanwhile there are others who, perhaps out of greed, sheer arrogance and an overinflated sense of self-righteousness, prefer to maintain that they did nothing wrong, even when the writing's on the wall.

ram · « **Reply #14 on:** August 12, 2012, 07:30 »

Quote from: AG on August 12, 2012, 06:27

Pretty brave of him to admit at all though Francois. He certainly didnt have to.

No one was going to force him to by any means, only his own conscience. Nobody forced him to start a new team, with a purpose of being a place for riders to be able to ride 'clean', to attempt at least to stand up for anti-doping.

Even with the sh*t-storm that is approaching, his prior semi-admissions would have taken the sting out of any of the flying dung that might go his way.

By this kind of piece, he is standing up and saying 'look at me, I did it' and attracting the flak that will come with that - and I do think there will be a cost associated with that. For his team, sponsors and self.

yes - maybe an element of PR management in the timing, but that is to be expected I think

It would/should all be revealed in the Armstrong trial anyway.

It really isn't going to change anything is it? Anyone who knew Vaughters and his history, knew he was doped. Anyone who didn't isn't going to GAF about a no name saying this. He's no Armstrong, heck he's not even CJ Hunter equivalent. He's a big name in cycling, he's a no name in sport. Still, he admitted it, and that's far better than so many who haven't. 8 years ago, I'd not have even blinked at this article.

just some guy · « **Reply #15 on:** August 12, 2012, 09:27 »

All sponsors , team staff and team will have been told about this. Sponsors will be fully behind so o it.

Pr - old cycling is dieing we are the future etc etc

pedaling squares · « **Reply #16 on:** August 13, 2012, 04:58 »

I agree with FTP, this was a strategic move. If USADA v Armstrong goes to arbitration, and If JV's testimony is considered, it might be better to have already faced up to old sins than to be asked about them under oath and become a distraction. JV isn't daft, he's getting this story out in this particular way, at this particular time, for a reason. But that's not necessarily reason to diminish what was said, and its potential effect on the man.

just some guy · « **Reply #17 on:** August 13, 2012, 11:27 »

I have read this twice now , apart from being in a paper to those who really follow cycling it really is no real news.

as I said PR

python · « **Reply #18 on:** August 13, 2012, 11:34 »

Quote from: Francois the Postman on August 12, 2012, 03:00

a very well written and reasoned piece, François !

i’ve been following jv on and off for as long as he’s been around. yet I rarely posted about him, both for or against. this is not because i am disinterested, quite the opposite, but because unlike most, i did not really have many questions to him

he was not and is not an enigma to me. nor i felt he owed to me any tearful confession. never having any connection to him, i somehow understood his tainted past, i instinctively understood what he is trying to achieve today under the tainted uci and I could associate with his vision for the future within a new untainted cycling body.

is jv’s article in nyt self-serving ?

absolutely ! for one, the timing is certainly interesting. Also, the anti-doping self-promotion is obvious…but the article also serves other good causes besides jv’s own.

what he is doing is what any intelligent EXPOSED insiders always did for their survival - selling their/his tainted past to the highest bidder one bit at one time. At the right time.

imo, the difference between him and the other tainted actors from the same era is that he is not trying to survive. he aims higher. he did not chose to open a lbs or retiring to a farm. he chose to change cycling from inside. at least according to him.

i am a facts guy…so far, personally, i have not seen any hard evidence that he’s toying with my brain or trust. Until then, i wish him good luck.

oh, and the timing of the article i believe is far more anti uci than pro usada. that's what i read between the lines…

flicker2.0 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 13, 2012, 16:06 »

JV is a highly motivated, enthusiastic, supporter of cycling, an intelligent man, who understands the ins and outs of cycling. His outing himself, is once again a calculated promotion of cycling, and for the non cycling fan, he will make the casual or non fan comfortable with cycling, just as Phil and Paul, and Frankie and his co-announcer did at the Tour of Utah.
It is important to have the aforementioned spokesmen to draw in new fans. Even though he was not the top of the top tier as a pro he is important to the sport. I appreciate his coming out of the closet, although the true cycling fans have always known the truth about JVs' career.
(I did not watch JVs era and I know.)
I have to take my beret off to him for his all important explanation, although an obvious ploy of damage control for what is coming for Lance, nice save Jon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9koy7b1E#noexternalembed

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