collapse


just some guy

  • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
  • Hall of Fame'r
  • Country: 00
  • Posts: 37764
  • Liked: 11460
  • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
Ok all a bit well I am not quite sure yet

Have asked Veloclinic

he mentioned he thinks the peloton may have moved on the glycolysis as a form of doping/advantage - getting the system to provide to provide energy and burn fat which adds in weightloss

and Ketones may add this ( well I think so CJ help ? )

anyway here is some reading

https://twitter.com/badbrainAJ/status/575329612147900416



http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/ketones-controversial-new-energy-drink-next-big-thing-cycling-151877

What is the roll of Ketone's in Team Sky diet?

Dr Ferrari here explains the benefit and the British company leading the research effort
http://53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=131

Nigel Mitchell, Head of Nutrition at British Cycling gave a speech at International sports+exercise Nutrition Conference in 2012 which was summarised in a series of tweets:

Quote
“Detail is hugely important in Team Sky nutrition program. They even sent their own ‘team Sky olive oil’ to the various competitions. #iSENC” @gommaar

“Nigel Mitchell – “get the cake right, before adding the sprinkles” – Emphasis on macro-nutrition prior to additional supplementation.#ISENC” @TigerSandCG

“interesting the role of ketones adopted by sky cycling team #iSENC” @FerreJordi

“Because riders are so used to turning over fluids and foods, Team Sky riders cycle about 2-3h in rest days TdF #iSENC” @gommaar

“Riders could eat up to 250 g of Protein per day! #ISENC” @Diet4Sport

“Very interesting. Team Sky TdF nutrition. 7-8g/kg Carbohydrate, and almost 3g/kg FAT! 200g Fat per day! (2.7-3.5g/kg protein!!) #ISENC” @MacNutrition

So, there is obviously something going on and if Team Sky have gotten access to a molecule which no-one else has, whilst not doping itself, it seems to me extremely unethical.

By the way, here is a research paper by Nigel Mitchell which seems to prove that Fish Oil is good.

https://www.scienceopen.com/document/vid/b8e9f0bb-467f-4571-b228-fe23a24b8e19

Also, interesting that he uses the athlete VO2max as part of the evidence. But according to Brailsford, Team Sky don't do VO2max.

Keith still with us 
  • ReplyReply
  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    froome19

    • Monument Winner
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 5689
    • Liked: 2049
    • Awards: 2015 National Championships Prediction Game Champion
    So basically, way I get it from reading Ferrari's article Ketones basically do everything you could desire as a professional sportsman (well not quite, but they appear to help a lot) they are considerably more efficient in providing metabolic energy than Glucose, 30% is the number Ferrari provides.

    Not to mention it synthesises Glycogen, similar to Insulin would provide extra energy boost by saving the original Glycogen and thereby allowing the muscles to put in longer efforts.

  • ReplyReply
  • RIP Keith

    froome19

    • Monument Winner
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 5689
    • Liked: 2049
    • Awards: 2015 National Championships Prediction Game Champion
    Ketones: Controversial new energy drink could be next big thing in cycling

    I went on the hunt for some more info..

    Quote
    “There are professional cycling teams and world famous professional cyclists in those teams, or in that team, who have used ketones for significant internationally famous events, which they’ve won,” explained Dr David Holdsworth, who leads current research into the drinks. “So yes, it has been used with considerable success.”

    Quote
    The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) confirmed to Cycling Weekly that ketones are not currently on its prohibited substance or monitoring list. UK Anti-Doping (UKAD) head of science and medicine Nick Wojek added in a statement: “Athletes are advised to assess the risks associated with using any supplements, including those where synthetic ketones are listed as an ingredient.”

    Dr Holdsworth confirmed that ketones were given to professional athletes only after clearance from anti-doping authorities. He believed ketone drinks should be considered like existing energy drinks.

    A spokesperson declined to comment on whether ketone drinks are being used by riders on Team Sky and Great Britain when contacted by Cycling Weekly.


    The benefits from everything I had read are huge. Sky are surely using these.. I wonder who else is?
  • ReplyReply

  • Drummer Boy

    • Classics Winner
    • Country: us
    • Posts: 3776
    • Liked: 4024
    • Awards: Post of the year 2015
    I'm confused by the timing of this thread, did something new just pop up in the media regarding this topic?

    CyclingTips ran an article (which included that youtube video) a year ago. I find it to be a fascinating subject, but is there some specific reason  for it being brought up now?

    And yes, Team Sky are on it.



    Ketones in Performance Cycling
    Quote
    There has been growing attention in cycling around a class of compounds called ketones. They have been used in the pro peloton successfully by teams, such as Team Sky, to help give their athletes an edge. Though currently these ketones are exceptionally expensive, running into £1000s for a rider for a race, as the production is streamlined and scaled-up, nutritional products that contain a source of the ketones are to become one of the most sought after products for those who compete in endurance events over the next few years.
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37764
    • Liked: 11460
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    I'm confused by the timing of this thread, did something new just pop up in the media regarding this topic?

    CyclingTips ran an article (which included that youtube video) a year ago. I find it to be a fascinating subject, but is there some specific reason  for it being brought up now?

    And yes, Team Sky are on it.



    Ketones in Performance Cycling

    as I said in the OP Glycolysis popped up re CIRC on my Twitter timeline and then again yesterday

    I knew we had touched on it , just though we needed a thread
  • ReplyReply
  • « Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 10:26 by just some guy »

    cj2002

    • Classics Winner
    • *
    • Country: pt
    • Posts: 3679
    • Liked: 3254
    • Honorary President
    • Awards: Best avatar 2012
    OK - I haven't got the time now to investigate the potential sport science impact of this, but I can try and help with some background science.

    In the human body there are two pathways by which we degrade energy-supplying chemicals: glycolysis (the degradation of glucose) and ketosis (the degradation of 'ketone bodies'). The alternation between the two is normal. In the absence of carbohydrates to supply glucose, the body naturally switches into ketosis - this happens overnight, for example.

    Because glucose intake triggers insulin secretion and the storage of energy as fat, ketosis is often used as a method of forcing the body to burn fat reserves. Hence the Atkins diet, and other such carb-free fads. The metabolism of fatty acids (fish oils would count here...) releases ketone bodies.

    Under strenuous exercise, whatever glucose we have put into our bodies is depleted much quicker, so the body is forced to switch to ketosis and begins to use ketone bodies as the primary energy source.

    All of the above is normal, based on a normal diet, and happens to normal diet.

    If you restrict carbohydrate intake, and supplement with fats, you will effectively force your body into ketosis on a longer-term. Supplementation with already-metabolised ketones would, on paper, seem like a way of getting quick fuel to muscle tissues without increasing fat accumulation.

    However - and as with all of these medical-type interventions in athletics - this is messing with the way our bodies are supposed to function. An excess of ketone bodies can decrease the pH of the blood (make it more acidic). This is a common complication of Type 1 diabetes, called ketoacidosis, and generally leads to coma. This is the condition where an unconscious diabetic has breath that smells like pear drops.

    Here ends the science lesson.
  • ReplyReply
  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 10366
    • Liked: 4616
    • Awards: 2019 Giro prediction champNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2018KeithJamesMC award 2016Velorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    CJ, that can't be healthy? Injecting or ingesting something that synthesizes glycogen would that not lead to the body not producing insulin any longer (or not as much) causing type 2 diabetes?
  • ReplyReply
  • RIP Keith
    RIP krebs

    cj2002

    • Classics Winner
    • *
    • Country: pt
    • Posts: 3679
    • Liked: 3254
    • Honorary President
    • Awards: Best avatar 2012
    CJ, that can't be healthy? Injecting or ingesting something that synthesizes glycogen would that not lead to the body not producing insulin any longer (or not as much) causing type 2 diabetes?

    I'm not sure the "synthesising glycogen" works... glycogen is an energy store formed by polymerising glucose molecules in response to insulin secretion.

    As I understand the ketone body thing, it is a separate metabolic pathway to the insulin/glucose/glycogen one. Ketosis happens when there is no glycogen left to turn into glucose.
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37764
    • Liked: 11460
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    OK - I haven't got the time now to investigate the potential sport science impact of this, but I can try and help with some background science.

    In the human body there are two pathways by which we degrade energy-supplying chemicals: glycolysis (the degradation of glucose) and ketosis (the degradation of 'ketone bodies'). The alternation between the two is normal. In the absence of carbohydrates to supply glucose, the body naturally switches into ketosis - this happens overnight, for example.

    Because glucose intake triggers insulin secretion and the storage of energy as fat, ketosis is often used as a method of forcing the body to burn fat reserves. Hence the Atkins diet, and other such carb-free fads. The metabolism of fatty acids (fish oils would count here...) releases ketone bodies.

    Under strenuous exercise, whatever glucose we have put into our bodies is depleted much quicker, so the body is forced to switch to ketosis and begins to use ketone bodies as the primary energy source.

    All of the above is normal, based on a normal diet, and happens to normal diet.

    If you restrict carbohydrate intake, and supplement with fats, you will effectively force your body into ketosis on a longer-term. Supplementation with already-metabolised ketones would, on paper, seem like a way of getting quick fuel to muscle tissues without increasing fat accumulation.

    However - and as with all of these medical-type interventions in athletics - this is messing with the way our bodies are supposed to function. An excess of ketone bodies can decrease the pH of the blood (make it more acidic). This is a common complication of Type 1 diabetes, called ketoacidosis, and generally leads to coma. This is the condition where an unconscious diabetic has breath that smells like pear drops.

    Here ends the science lesson.

    Funny now it is written in plan english I remember at that from UNI 20 odd years ago :fp

    Thanks CJ
  • ReplyReply

  • search

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 14583
    • Liked: 14218
    • Awards: Member of the year 2016Post of the year 2016KeithJamesMC 2016Member of the year 20152012 CQ Ranking Tour GameAvatar of the Year 2013
    an article about #giotti Andrea Guardini's post-lockdown way back into shape, via a ketones diet:



    "I am experiencing the benefits of using ketones on my body, the results I am getting are incredible"

    https://www.tuttobiciweb.it/article/2020/07/19/1595084133/andrea-guardini-giotti-victoria-palomar-ripartenza-sibiu-tour-chetoni-integratori-intervista
  • ReplyReply
  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    riding too slowly

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Posts: 321
    • Liked: 314
    Interesting given the revelations about UK Sport and a small pool of Team GB athletes including cyclists being given ketones for the run up and during London 2012.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-8513525/British-2012-Olympians-guinea-pigs-Special-Forces-wonder-drug.html
  • ReplyReply

  • Mellow Velo

    • Classics Winner
    • Country: wales
    • Posts: 3163
    • Liked: 3821
    • Awards: 2015 CQ Vuelta Game winnerVelogames Classics Champion 20142013 CQ Ranking Giro Game
    Interesting given the revelations about UK Sport and a small pool of Team GB athletes including cyclists being given ketones for the run up and during London 2012.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-8513525/British-2012-Olympians-guinea-pigs-Special-Forces-wonder-drug.html

    This story is about 10 days old.
    Only the Daily Fail could make a nutritional supplement sound more dodgy than epo.

    Normally defined as:

    Ketones are produced naturally (endogenously) during fasting or on a strict low-carb, high-fat diet..

    However, a quick Mail makeover and we have:

    "Ketones, a synthetic form of the energy source produced during fasting"
  • ReplyReply
  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    riding too slowly

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Posts: 321
    • Liked: 314
    This story is about 10 days old.
    Only the Daily Fail could make a nutritional supplement sound more dodgy than epo.

    Normally defined as:

    Ketones are produced naturally (endogenously) during fasting or on a strict low-carb, high-fat diet..

    However, a quick Mail makeover and we have:

    "Ketones, a synthetic form of the energy source produced during fasting"

    That is a misrepresentation of the story and reveals bias.

    The principle feature of the story is the "cover up"; which has many facets. 
    That so many at so many levels participated in that aspect of it reveals clear systemic motivation.

    I am not sure those athletes in Team GB not in the favoured status of being offered it to "aid" their preparation would have had a kindly view on it, in respect of either their non-employing management and selectors (I hope you spot the link there) or fellow team-mates.  Certainly the Mail seemingly found it easy enough topic to  get quotes on from athletes and none of the athletes looked on it with anything other than disgust.

    It is also a story from 2011/12 and the technical aspects of Ketone supplements need to be judged in relation to the understanding of their role in performance enhancement at that time and ability to detect them via test, at that time.  In respect of both of those issues, by WADA not the supplement developers and that was undoubtedly scant in regard to both.  ie not a "grey" area but virtually uncharted territory for WADA with no test.

    As to the "Ketones are produced naturally" argument, well so is blood and Lance and co. were not even injecting all the blood they taken from their own bodies back into their own bodies, only part of it ! What's not to like about that either!

    Mind I love your faith that WADA might actually decide to only put things on the banned list if they would give unfair advantage in a sporting context.
  • ReplyReply

  • Mellow Velo

    • Classics Winner
    • Country: wales
    • Posts: 3163
    • Liked: 3821
    • Awards: 2015 CQ Vuelta Game winnerVelogames Classics Champion 20142013 CQ Ranking Giro Game
    That is a misrepresentation of the story and reveals bias.

    The principle feature of the story is the "cover up"; which has many facets. 
    That so many at so many levels participated in that aspect of it reveals clear systemic motivation.

    I am not sure those athletes in Team GB not in the favoured status of being offered it to "aid" their preparation would have had a kindly view on it, in respect of either their non-employing management and selectors (I hope you spot the link there) or fellow team-mates.  Certainly the Mail seemingly found it easy enough topic to  get quotes on from athletes and none of the athletes looked on it with anything other than disgust.

    It is also a story from 2011/12 and the technical aspects of Ketone supplements need to be judged in relation to the understanding of their role in performance enhancement at that time and ability to detect them via test, at that time.  In respect of both of those issues, by WADA not the supplement developers and that was undoubtedly scant in regard to both.  ie not a "grey" area but virtually uncharted territory for WADA with no test.

    As to the "Ketones are produced naturally" argument, well so is blood and Lance and co. were not even injecting all the blood they taken from their own bodies back into their own bodies, only part of it ! What's not to like about that either!

    Mind I love your faith that WADA might actually decide to only put things on the banned list if they would give unfair advantage in a sporting context.

     I really ain't interested in debating this with you, as I know it's pointless.
     

     

  • ReplyReply

  • riding too slowly

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Posts: 321
    • Liked: 314
    I really ain't interested in debating this with you, as I know it's pointless.

    Lots of things in life are difficult to justify rationally. 

    But step back - you have your Welsh dragon symbol.  What do you think of Thomas ?  Did you go to the celebrations in Cardiff?  What did you say to your occasional work colleagues when they started talking about the win ?


    The Mail are obviously driving at the "clean Brits thrash dirty Ruskie dopers at London games" myth.  Is it the Ketones of the fact that I took another thread to  Barloworld and the endemic doping there, so now that makes anything I write totally unpalatable to consider, just like the Mail. 

    It is one heck of a painful journey.  For me it is easily represented by my attitude to track and field and say Alan Wells.  In 1980 and onto Los Angeles 1984.  Here was a guy that won the 100m against Ruski dopers - previous generation Valeriy Borsov and the like, and seemed to get no press - it was all Seb Coe and Steve Ovett. Yet in every interview he seemed to come across as a thoroughly decent type of person and athlete.  How could such a nice person possibly use PEDs? Then the penny slowly dropped down through the mechanism that Wells was doping as well as the best.  Of course I had no evidence.  Decades later his colleagues spoke out and then finally the story made it to a BBC program.  I look back at myself and marvel - just how could I have possibly believed Wells was clean, there is nothing logical or rational about taking that position. 

    So Thomas rides on a team where other riders doped.  Of course it does not mean he dopes.  But he rides the Tour faster than riders who dope and rides faster than previous winners who doped.  I came to appreciate that sustaining the idea that Wells won the Olympic 100m title without doping was a flight of imagination. Maintaining that impossible position meant frequently I had to dismiss cruel facts that attempted to break into my world.

    Ketones may not be EPO but the way this program was run and the way it was kept covert are a pall of smoke that tells us everything about a fire we cannot see.  No way could Wells be clean.

    For those who went to Cardiff to celebrate the local lad, there is a painful road ahead.
  • ReplyReply

  •  

    * Dark Side Chatbox

    Sorry, this shoutbox does not exist.

    Recent Posts

    Re: Roadbooks by Mellow Velo
    [Today at 09:18]


    Re: Roadbooks by Echoes
    [Today at 00:18]


    Re: Roadbooks bonjour Jai télécharger l appli by roy
    [June 14, 2021, 19:21]


    Re: Roadbooks by Samuel
    [June 14, 2021, 15:01]


    Re: Roadbooks by Kevin34
    [June 13, 2021, 00:38]


    Re: Roadbooks by Sandrine06
    [June 06, 2021, 21:43]

    Recent Topics



    Top
    Back to top